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Dangerous Drone Flying

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Best way to control the citizens of any country is to get the people to spy on each other and inform the authorities of even the most minor breaches of civil protocols.
This is a proven technique known to work very well as demonstrated by Nazi Germany and the old USSR!
Good luck with your freedoms!!!!!
 
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Or we talk to them and say did you realise you were breaching the guidelines set out to protect everyone....

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In the United States, "Guidelines" are not "laws" and not following "guidelines" is not automatically unsafe. Context and circumstances are everything. I am responsible for my own actions.
Same in the UK but trying to prevent legislation means trying to pro actively get pilots to follow the guidelines. Self policing or legislation!

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Additionally, in the UK the Air Navigation Order CAP393 is law. It is not guidelines but legislation that has been ratified in UK law.
Flying outside of the regulations contained within articles 241, 94 and 95 means you are in direct violation of the ANO and therefore breaking the law.
I think where many hobby flyers and newbies get confused and where the CAA have it wrong is producing a document like 'The Drone Code' which makes it sound to the uneducated like it is some guidelines for children crossing the road (yes I can remember 'The Green Cross Code).
They haven't made it clear enough that it is law not a 'code' or 'guideline' and carries heavy penalties for contravening CAP393.
 
Additionally, in the UK the Air Navigation Order CAP393 is law. It is not guidelines but legislation that has been ratified in UK law.
Flying outside of the regulations contained within articles 241, 94 and 95 means you are in direct violation of the ANO and therefore breaking the law.
I think where many hobby flyers and newbies get confused and where the CAA have it wrong is producing a document like 'The Drone Code' which makes it sound to the uneducated like it is some guidelines for children crossing the road (yes I can remember 'The Green Cross Code).
They haven't made it clear enough that it is law not a 'code' or 'guideline' and carries heavy penalties for contravening CAP393.
Good post Editor and a good example of the need for country specific forums IMO..... While this might be of interest to those living or flying in the U.K. or Canada, its of no interest to me.
 
Good post Editor and a good example of the need for country specific forums IMO..... While this might be of interest to those living or flying in the U.K. or Canada, its of no interest to me.
Yeah - we already have some country specific prefix drop downs over on Inspirepilots so maybe makes sense to have it over here as well.
 
Additionally, in the UK the Air Navigation Order CAP393 is law. It is not guidelines but legislation that has been ratified in UK law.
Flying outside of the regulations contained within articles 241, 94 and 95 means you are in direct violation of the ANO and therefore breaking the law.
I think where many hobby flyers and newbies get confused and where the CAA have it wrong is producing a document like 'The Drone Code' which makes it sound to the uneducated like it is some guidelines for children crossing the road (yes I can remember 'The Green Cross Code).
They haven't made it clear enough that it is law not a 'code' or 'guideline' and carries heavy penalties for contravening CAP393.
Thanks Editor for the clarification. Just need to define the definition of a drone and a toy....

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Thanks Editor for the clarification. Just need to define the definition of a drone and a toy....

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk
With regards to the ANO it doesn't matter as they do not differentiate - it is simply a UAS or a SUAS (camera or non camera equipped) of sub 7kg, 7-20kg and up to 150kg.
Qualification in any one particular weight class means automatic qualification in all lower classes.
 
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With regards to the ANO it doesn't matter as they do not differentiate - it is simply a UAS or a SUAS (camera or non camera equipped) of sub 7kg, 7-20kg and up to 150kg.
Qualification in any one particular weight class means automatic qualification in all lower classes.

My problem with these discussions is that there are a few very different camps here. Those who have taken the exams and have paid their time and money have a tendency to sound very 'right on' about the rules, and defend them to the letter. I understand it, as it is a form of protectionism. You've spent the money to separate yourself (in the eyes of the law) from everyone else, and now you're not going to vote for relaxation of those laws.

But change is coming. The Mavic has changed the discussion already, to a degree, because of its size and weight. It is that much lighter and smaller that i think the likelihood of serious damage caused by "the smallest drones" becomes much closer to zero. Aircraft, SURELY, are designed to withstand things that are heavier and tougher than a Mavic. You get hailstones that are heavier than a mavic in some parts of the world. I'm not trying to open a debate about that point, by the way, because none of us actually know the answer. What I mean is that the Mavic is a few months old and it's lighter, smaller, less dangerous. In a year's time there will be something smaller still. The sub-7kg rule becomes increasingly irrelevant.

In the 2000s, the music industry put its fingers in its ears and tried to pretend that digital distribution of music would never happen, and even tried to prevent it happening - but of course you can't fight the tide. It happened anyway, record labels spent too long in denial and too much money on lawsuits, and the industry suffered for nearly a decade as it tried to devise a relevant and acceptable solution to the advances in data transfer and technology. It was 5 years behind the curve. Now that itunes doesn't use DRM, and we have Spotify, they finally have a solution. Was sharing mp3s illegal? Yes. Did I do it? Yes. But I now pay £20 per month for Spotify and enjoy being on the right side of the law.

Maybe people like the Editor (who I have had some excellent constructive discussions with over on Inspire Pilots) can be involved with changing these laws, and I think that for the most part people have their heart in the right places. But too much time is spent admonishing people for really really low level breaches. Don't tell me off for a photo of me driving at 75mph, on a car forum.

If in 2017, we managed to stop idiots from flying in restricted airspace and near airports, by having one clear unified voice on regulation, that would be a huge achievement and most of the bad press would go away. All the wasted hot air about smaller breaches just pushes that further away i believe.
 
I'm about to say something that will grate on the "real pilots" I would like to know how many confirmed strikes there have been of drones to manned aircraft? Then I would like to know how many birdstrikes there have been to manned aircraft? My limited knowledge of these types of incidents indicate to me that birdstrikes are far more likely and more dangerous. There are far more birds than drones yet drones are the problem? I'm not buying it. As to the I'm calling the authorities on every YouTube video folks... go ahead.

If you think law enforcement has time to go investigate the guy who flew outside the lines you have a rude awakening coming.


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This discussion is an important one and I'm glad it has remained civil thus far but I think we all have to keep this in mind... While "safety" is indeed universal, laws and regulations are not. I think it's important we keep in mind there are a lot of countries and legal systems represented here. My comments and opinions are that as a citizen of the United States. I am governed by Federal Law, the laws of my state (Nevada), Clark County along with various municipalities. While I appreciate and respect other countries and their legal cultures, from the standpoint of my hobby, I really only care about my legal culture. Coming from that perspective, I view this issue (government regulation of my hobby) as that of an American. I'm always concerned by intrusions into my rights of privacy, association, private property, constitutional rights etc etc. Simply stated, in the United States the government's power is limited and I for one want to keep it that way. Freedom requires vigilance.

Suggestion to moderators: It might be helpful to create some country specific sub-forums to discuss the legalities of our hobby. Just a thought
Limited power lmao...

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birdstrikes are far more likely and more dangerous

I keep hearing this argument that birdstrikes are somehow more dangerous, or that harm from a bit of plastic toy is somehow impossible.
  • Birds are made of mostly water and a little bit of hollow brittle calcium bone matter. A birdstrike incident is anticipated in the design and tested thoroughly before the engine design is certified. However, even striking one bird is enough to turn a jetliner back and the engines will have a thorough borescope inspection before a return to service. Minor disruptions in rotor speeds can cause a surge or stall to the air passing through the engine, which can damage many parts of the engine.
  • Jet engines are banned from flying through volcanic ash that's lighter than air because it will turn to glass and coat the turbine blades. Major portions of the UK were grounded after Iceland had an eruption a few years back.
  • These toys are made of fiberglass, copper, carbon fiber, aluminum, various urethanes and vinyl, with many parts made of steel and strong neodymium magnets in every motor.
  • It's not just the engines that we have to watch out for. A piece of debris damaged the tires of the Concorde jet, which in turn ruptured the fuel tanks and sent 113 people to their deaths. In that case, the debris was laying out on a runway, but the tires and other aircraft components are exposed to impacts through many other phases of the flight.
  • It's not the mass, but the mass and the relative speeds, which determine impact force. A small chunk of foam broke free and destroyed an entire Space Shuttle, because the relative speed was high enough.
Be responsible.
 
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My problem with these discussions is that there are a few very different camps here. Those who have taken the exams and have paid their time and money have a tendency to sound very 'right on' about the rules, and defend them to the letter. I understand it, as it is a form of protectionism. You've spent the money to separate yourself (in the eyes of the law) from everyone else, and now you're not going to vote for relaxation of those laws.

But change is coming. The Mavic has changed the discussion already, to a degree, because of its size and weight. It is that much lighter and smaller that i think the likelihood of serious damage caused by "the smallest drones" becomes much closer to zero. Aircraft, SURELY, are designed to withstand things that are heavier and tougher than a Mavic. You get hailstones that are heavier than a mavic in some parts of the world. I'm not trying to open a debate about that point, by the way, because none of us actually know the answer. What I mean is that the Mavic is a few months old and it's lighter, smaller, less dangerous. In a year's time there will be something smaller still. The sub-7kg rule becomes increasingly irrelevant.

In the 2000s, the music industry put its fingers in its ears and tried to pretend that digital distribution of music would never happen, and even tried to prevent it happening - but of course you can't fight the tide. It happened anyway, record labels spent too long in denial and too much money on lawsuits, and the industry suffered for nearly a decade as it tried to devise a relevant and acceptable solution to the advances in data transfer and technology. It was 5 years behind the curve. Now that itunes doesn't use DRM, and we have Spotify, they finally have a solution. Was sharing mp3s illegal? Yes. Did I do it? Yes. But I now pay £20 per month for Spotify and enjoy being on the right side of the law.

Maybe people like the Editor (who I have had some excellent constructive discussions with over on Inspire Pilots) can be involved with changing these laws, and I think that for the most part people have their heart in the right places. But too much time is spent admonishing people for really really low level breaches. Don't tell me off for a photo of me driving at 75mph, on a car forum.

If in 2017, we managed to stop idiots from flying in restricted airspace and near airports, by having one clear unified voice on regulation, that would be a huge achievement and most of the bad press would go away. All the wasted hot air about smaller breaches just pushes that further away i believe.
I'm glad to see for the most part that this thread hasn't degenerated into one of the usual mud slinging matches we've seen on here. :)

I think people tend to get very hung up on the "oh it's never going to bring down an aircraft" type argument and that isn't really the bigger picture.
What about flying over a busy multi-lane road during peak times and your UAV malfunctions and loses power and drops. Is it going to go through a window or windshield? Doubt it at 750g. However, it could bounce off a car, land on the road and the lipo ignite - some drivers would swerve violently and the aftermath you could read about on the news. Did the UAV hit anybody and injure them? No, but the resultant damage certainly could.
These things maybe lightweight but they have sharp blades spinning at circa 8,000rpm - I've have seen first hand on the flying field what a carbon fibre blade can do to someone's fingers - it isn't a band aid and an aspirin type injury!
What professional/commercial RPAS (Drone) training gives you is a better understanding of the risks involved and risk mitigation that can be undertaken to minimise those areas.
Do hobby fliers need to go through all the procedures someone like myself does before flying an area? Absolutely not.
Should they undertake some of them? It would certainly make them a safer flyer and lower their chances of causing an accident and/or injuring someone or causing damage to something.
Do they have to do this is by law? Nope, not in the slightest but understanding your environment, risks and limiting them to an absolute minimum seems like common sense to me.

Leaving aside any BVLOS flights (I don't want to get I to one of those discussions) here are a few things that I've not seen mentioned on here but everybody should be aware of and take note not just to be safer but to protect their own aircraft and investment.
  • Other than myself, I've not seen anyone ever mention anabatic and katabatic winds - they are real, they happen on steeply sloping terrain (mountains, hills, dams etc) similar effect can occur in urban environments on tall buildings etc and can take your aircraft and push it against the dam/mountain/building even on calm days
  • Damaged props - I've cringed at some of the photos of people's props on here. It's the only thing that's keeping you airborne. If one is damaged, change it. A damaged prop WILL be out of balance. This can cause not only undue stress on the motor mounts and bearings but can transfer through the airframe and in extreme circumstances cause the IMU to error and cause a crash - Don't skimp on your props guys.
  • Icing - Ice can form on your props even in temperatures above freezing. The difference in pressure between the upper and slower surfaces of the props (which gives you flight) causes a sudden drop in temperature.
  • CB (Cumulonimbus) formations can have lighting strike up to 30 miles from where they are - be aware.
  • Percentage display of battery capacity is not accurate. Percentage is relative, voltage is absolute. Try and get used to flying by voltage (under load) rather than percentage
  • METARS and TAFs - maybe not for all but they will give you very accurate and localised weather conditions. If you are interested, get used to using them
  • Winds aloft - winds at altitude can and usually are very different from conditions on the ground. Be mindful of that.
  • Different geological formations have different magnetic properties which can affect the magnetometer (compass)
I could go on and on but for many hobby fliers the checks and permissions may not be relevant.
However, what I would say is whether you are flying for fun or thinking of getting into the hobby commercially do make sure you have a thorough checklist which you go through every flight.
Do make sure you do a site survey (even by eyeball) first before you fly an area.
Do check weather and wind conditions before you fly
Do check/think about whether you will need permission for where you are going to take off/land and fly before you make the flight.
I've said enough, so I'll shut up now but please do think about risk mitigation before you go airborne - it's not all about other aircraft there are other factors to consider as well.

Most of all guys - have fun. It's a fantastic hobby and we should all be enjoying it as it was meant to be but just do it safely and not recklessly.

Enough from me........
 
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