Donations = commercial? UK

[DaveLewin]

If I do some footage and photos of - say - an RNLI boat on maneuvers in the local bay, then post it and ask for donations (to me initially, which I pass on), does that count as commercial and therefore commercial insurance etc?

 

[old man mavic]

you would need to clear you intention's with the RNLI and explain what you are going to do with the footage ,if they are happy then i think it would be better if you said something like please support the RNLI by donating to them, you should at the very least ,have third party insurance to cover you for any damage that might occur if the drone went out of control

 

[Cafguy]

In the U.S. Yes The "Intent" of your flight is to post photos online for donation That means you are providing a service to whomever this money goes too, therefor a commercial flight. Here in the U.S. its all about "Intent" of the flight. You are only flying recreational when you are just flying for fun with no financial benefit to anyone including yourself.

 

[Felix le Chat]

If I do some footage and photos of - say - an RNLI boat on maneuvers in the local bay, then post it and ask for donations (to me initially, which I pass on), does that count as commercial and therefore commercial insurance etc?

Why not cut out the middle-man and post the clips with the request to contribute a donation direct to the RNLI - commercial or non-commercial question answered - potential problem solved before it pokes its head up to bite you. And, just a suggestion, I would get in contact with the RNLI and ask permission well before shadowing one of their deployments - apparently they can be really funny about drones being flown near their stations.

 

[DaveLewin]

In the U.S. Yes The "Intent" of your flight is to post photos online for donation That means you are providing a service to whomever this money goes too, therefor a commercial flight. Here in the U.S. its all about "Intent" of the flight. You are only flying recreational when you are just flying for fun with no financial benefit to anyone including yourself.

That's clear, thank you.

 

[DaveLewin]

you would need to clear you intention's with the RNLI and explain what you are going to do with the footage ,if they are happy then i think it would be better if you said something like please support the RNLI by donating to them, you should at the very least ,have third party insurance to cover you for any damage that might occur if the drone went out of control

Fair call, thanks.

 

[ExEvo]

You are only flying recreational when you are just flying for fun with no financial benefit to anyone including yourself.

So I use my M3P to inspect my roof, which isn't much fun, and by doing so I save myself a $100 callout charge by a roofing contractor, which is a financial benefit. Therefore it seems I need a commercial licence to film my own roof…?

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

So I use my M3P to inspect my roof, which isn't much fun, and by doing so I save myself a $100 callout charge by a roofing contractor, which is a financial benefit. Therefore it seems I need a commercial licence to film my own roof…?

It’s been posted on the forum before that is technically correct, if you want to look at it from a totally legal aspect . . . but obviously who’s going to know ?
It’s not like you will be posting a video of a home roof inspection to YouTube or such, probably not filming at all, just ‘inspect’ on the device screen.

 

[ExEvo]

It’s been posted on the forum before that is technically correct, if you want to look at it from a totally legal aspect . . . but obviously who’s going to know ?
It’s not like you will be posting a video of a home roof inspection to YouTube or such, probably not filming at all, just ‘inspect’ on the device screen.

I have posted a roof video on Youtube before in order to show roofing contractors what work I wanted done and get estimates for it. If they send me to prison, so be it.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

I have posted a roof video on Youtube before in order to show roofing contractors what work I wanted done and get estimates for it. If they send me to prison, so be it.

I personally feel such a use for own residential use should not be classed as commercial, and it'd be a very petty airspace authority that would fine or prosecute someone for doing something like that.
They should have bigger fish to fry.

 

[cah]

So I use my M3P to inspect my roof, which isn't much fun, and by doing so I save myself a $100 callout charge by a roofing contractor, which is a financial benefit. Therefore it seems I need a commercial licence to film my own roof…?

Saving yourself money does not make the flight commercial. You're using the drone for your own personal purposes (in this case to inspect your roof). If you show this video to commercial suppliers so that they can better quote you, then it's still not commercial use of the drone.

Charging the roof providers to view your footage would make it commercial. If no money is changing hands, it's recreational/personal.

Cleaning your own house instead of paying a cleaner doesn't make you residential cleaning business.

 

[Cafguy]

Once again it is all about INTENT. What you intended to do with the flight, If you wish to inspect your own roof for damage then you can consider that recreational since you are not providing a service to anyone but yourself at NO cost.
You did not physically pay yourself , make any financial gain, or sign a contract with yourself. so that would make this a recreational flight.
Now if the roofer you hired has asked you to use your drone to help him inspect the roof then you are providing that roofer with a service, requiring a commercial license.
NOW lets say while you are inspecting your roof your neighbor asked you to do the same for him since you are already up there, WELL now you are flying for the benefit of a 3rd party Or providing a service, you are now flying commercially even if he doesn't pay you the -INTENT- of your flight was to inspect his roof

 

[Cymruflyer]

Once again it is all about INTENT. What you intended to do with the flight, If you wish to inspect your own roof for damage then you can consider that recreational since you are not providing a service to anyone but yourself at NO cost.
You did not physically pay yourself , make any financial gain, or sign a contract with yourself. so that would make this a recreational flight.
Now if the roofer you hired has asked you to use your drone to help him inspect the roof then you are providing that roofer with a service, requiring a commercial license.
NOW lets say while you are inspecting your roof your neighbor asked you to do the same for him since you are already up there, WELL now you are flying for the benefit of a 3rd party Or providing a service, you are now flying commercially even if he doesn't pay you the -INTENT- of your flight was to inspect his roof

And of course while you were flying for fun looking at your roof, you flew over your neighbors roof and filmed that. Later on, you were showing your neighbor the fun footage you shot of your roof and he was able to see his roof in that video, then you were in the all clear, because you were flying for fun and someone else happened to look over at your screen. There is most always a work around. However. no money changed hands and you did not give away any footage, so it is always noncommercial.

 

[Cafguy]

You can add all the what ifs in the world to any scenario The Question remains the same WHAT DID I INTEND TO DO WHEN I TOOK OFF Did you intend to fly over your neighbors home to take pictures of his roof just to show him his roof afterwards- well thats Recreational. Did the neighbor ask you to do it( even for free) Well thats commercial. remember even if you do not get paid you are providing a service.
What you do with the roof footage you filmed while flying Recreationally is up to you as long as you do not Gain financially from the pictures or video

 

[123taff]

I really believe that some are taking this far too seriously and looking to introduce problems that do not really exist.
If a roofing company asks you to get a set of ladders and go up onto your own roof and take photos to pass onto them so they could give you an opinion/estimate of what work is required, then this is in no way a "commercial" action, and you do not become a professional roofer or photographer for that purpose.
If you then tell them that you own a drone and will do the same "photography" and they asked you to do so, that again does not constitute a "commercial" transaction.
Similarly, if a neighbour asks you to photograph his roof in similar circumstances as a favour, then it is NOT a "commercial" transaction. It might be a different story if you charged a fee.
If there are no pecuniary advantages, then it is NOT a "commercial" transaction.
However, I believe that in the case of the situation described by the OP, then an organisation may get a pecuniary advantage, (even a voluntary one) so in these circumstances, it might well stray into the realms of a "commercial" transaction.

 

[Cafguy]

I will concede that maybe your rooftop story is not a commercial flight in the U.K. because I do not wish to argue with , or troll anyone. However what you describe above is NOT a recreational flight. Actually inspecting your roof without a drone is a "commercial" action-- you see you are providing the roofer you hired with a service-- no money changed hands but what you did for him had value. Just ask the I.R.S. This makes your flight a Commercial Flight, This is how it would be interpreted in Southern California.
ALSO You state that if you did this as a favor for your neighbor it would be recreational-- Sorry NO. This would absolutely be a commercial flight. Look at it this way, What if your neighbor asked you to film his daughters wedding as a favor, would you really consider that recreational? I do quite a bit of work requiring F.A.A. waivers, permissions ...etc. I would be happy to get clarification for you from our local C.O.B. , but since we live in different countries the Law would most certainly be different for you .
I see your point but unfortunately the F.A.A. does not. and more importantly for this subject. The I.R.S. would strongly disagree also
Anyway that is how I see it from my vantage point here in So.Cal.
As said above I hope this can be considered a debate and not an argument because I have no wish to argue with anyone on this great forum. Your point is valid and I just wish to Explain what I have said to disagree with it.

 

[123taff]

Your submission is relevant only to your local law, but is really irrelevant since the OP was asking for a UK specific perspective.
The IRS or FAA has no jurisdiction in the UK and is also irrelevant to the OP.
Under UK law, for the circumstances to be termed as a "commercial" transaction, then there has to be a pecuniary transfer element to one or more parties involved.

 

[Cymruflyer]

I will concede that maybe your rooftop story is not a commercial flight in the U.K. because I do not wish to argue with , or troll anyone. However what you describe above is NOT a recreational flight. Actually inspecting your roof without a drone is a "commercial" action-- you see you are providing the roofer you hired with a service-- no money changed hands but what you did for him had value. Just ask the I.R.S. This makes your flight a Commercial Flight, This is how it would be interpreted in Southern California.
ALSO You state that if you did this as a favor for your neighbor it would be recreational-- Sorry NO. This would absolutely be a commercial flight. Look at it this way, What if your neighbor asked you to film his daughters wedding as a favor, would you really consider that recreational? I do quite a bit of work requiring F.A.A. waivers, permissions ...etc. I would be happy to get clarification for you from our local C.O.B. , but since we live in different countries the Law would most certainly be different for you .
I see your point but unfortunately the F.A.A. does not. and more importantly for this subject. The I.R.S. would strongly disagree also
Anyway that is how I see it from my vantage point here in So.Cal.
As said above I hope this can be considered a debate and not an argument because I have no wish to argue with anyone on this great forum. Your point is valid and I just wish to Explain what I have said to disagree with it.

Your comparison of taking a photo or few seconds of video of a neighbor's roof, to him asking the neighbor to film his daughter's wedding, is absurd and in no earthly way works as a good example of two similar situations.

Furthermore, people ask friends who are amateur photographers, to film or photograph their daughter's wedding, very frequently. Doing that would not constitute the filming or photography as a commercial undertaking. If it did, every single wedding that happens every weekend have almost every guest taking photos as the wedding takes place and they all share them with the parents and or bride and groom. That would mean that every person who takes a photo of someone else at the wedding would all be performing commercial photography, and that is simply not the case.

As for your roof example, I can fly my drone over my neighbors house and film straight down any time I want to and when I'm showing him the amazing clarity of the Hasselblad camera fitted to it, he is allowed to look at the film footage and my hobby filming could never be construed as being a commercial operation.