FAA ~ Recreational Drone Flying Aeronautical Test Moves Forward

[BigAl07]

I went by the other post, and recent past research when one posted a topic about training info for recreational test. The link in the latter topic referred to "Airman Knowledge Test" and book was dated 2016.

FAA link doesn't really distinguish 107 exam from the currently non-existant recreational exam. We have no idea how the recreational exam will be administered.
Besides, how can you change the way a test is administered that doesn't even exist?

It's just a Heads-Up....

"Important changes in Airman Testing webinars. These changes will affect Instructors, Evaluators, and any person who is taking an Airman Knowledge Test on and after January 13, 2020 "

I would assume it's safe to say the Hobby/Recreational test will be after 1/13/2020 making this potentially important information for any would-be Hobby/Recreational test taker. Also it's important to note that it's going to require a Federal Tracking Number (FTN) in order to take and get credit for the test.

 

[DanMan32]

"Also it's important to note that it's going to require a Federal Tracking Number (FTN) in order to take and get credit for the test."

That's another reason I have my doubts this will apply to the recreational test. I could be wrong. Someday we'll see. Right now as far as UAS is concerned, it applies to tests for part 107.

 

[Bob4131]

I think NC has the toughest UAV law in the country:

15A-300.2. Regulation of launch and recovery sites.

No unmanned aircraft system may be launched or recovered from any State or private property without consent.

I am curious whether this does not functionally ban most recreational flying in your state while leaving commercial and governmental UAV flight operations largely untouched.

I have talked to several 107 operators in NC that take house photos for real estate agents, roof inspections or thermal inspections ; they routinely take off from the street, sidewalk or highway right-of-way - all violating this regulation. This isn't an issue for those doing land surveys and agriculture surveys.
I have flown my drone in 15+ states and multiple jurisdictions. I research local drone regulations for each locale before flying to insure I am following not just federal but state and local regulations. NC is the most restrictive in my opinion (excluding Washington DC of course). Texas is perhaps second.
NC is welcoming large companies to fly drones. UPS is flying lab samples between hospitals with the intent to scale up to 12 mile drone flights (obviously well beyond VLOS). CVS prescription deliveries and Amazon package deliveries are welcomed. But the hobbyist and 107 single person companies are not encouraged in NC. I fly some in NC but fly elsewhere much more frequently. Of course, I am retired and only spend perhaps 40% of the year in NC, so that is ok.

 

[BigAl07]

I have talked to several 107 operators in NC that take house photos for real estate agents, roof inspections or thermal inspections ; they routinely take off from the street, sidewalk or highway right-of-way - all violating this regulation. This isn't an issue for those doing land surveys and agriculture surveys.
I have flown my drone in 15+ states and multiple jurisdictions. I research local drone regulations for each locale before flying to insure I am following not just federal but state and local regulations. NC is the most restrictive in my opinion (excluding Washington DC of course). Texas is perhaps second.
NC is welcoming large companies to fly drones. UPS is flying lab samples between hospitals with the intent to scale up to 12 mile drone flights (obviously well beyond VLOS). CVS prescription deliveries and Amazon package deliveries are welcomed. But the hobbyist and 107 single person companies are not encouraged in NC. I fly some in NC but fly elsewhere much more frequently. Of course, I am retired and only spend perhaps 40% of the year in NC, so that is ok.

Not encouraged in NC? Why is the idea of trespassing being illegal such a worry simply because it's flying an UAS?

I fly almost every single day in NC and literally from one end of the state (Western NC) all the way to the Outer Banks. I have yet to have any problem flying anywhere in the state except on NPS land and that's not a NC issue in the least. Granted I am careful where, when, and HOW I fly. Most of the time when I'm flying I not only have the permission from the land owner I am there at their request.

 

[Bob4131]

Not encouraged in NC? Why is the idea of trespassing being illegal such a worry simply because it's flying an UAS?

I fly almost every single day in NC and literally from one end of the state (Western NC) all the way to the Outer Banks. I have yet to have any problem flying anywhere in the state except on NPS land and that's not a NC issue in the least. Granted I am careful where, when, and HOW I fly. Most of the time when I'm flying I not only have the permission from the land owner I am there at their request.

I rarely post on line because of a response like this. I get someone that starts by accusing me of illegal activity (trespassing) instead of a rational response. I thought I was clear but let me go into more detail of my reasoning.
I have flown from one end of NC to the other and many areas in between. I am careful where, when and how I fly. I get permission from the private landowner before flying. As someone with > 100 acres, I am sensitive to landowner concerns. What I was pointing out was that NC is the only state in the US that outlaws takeoff from any state property including highway right of ways. Other states may prohibit drone takeoffs in certain areas and but none include highway right-of-ways.
I have never "had a problem" anywhere I have flown both in NC and in other states and that even includes NPS land (where it sounds like you had issues) because I research and follow the regulations. But for the person trying to photograph a house in a wooded neighborhood or with minimal property ( a condo for example) around the building or the hobbyist that wishes to photograph a spectacular view from the side of the road, NC's regulation is problematic. 49 other states allow a photographer to pull to the side of a road to take a scenic picture with a DLSR or a drone - no difference. NC does not.
If that regulation does not cause you a problem - great. You are the first 107 operator in NC that I know that has that opinion. However most 107 folks in NC that I know, they work in urban areas. But even folks doing land surveys for construction or agriculture may find it convenient to launch from a highway right-of-way.
NC is also the only state that requires 107 operators to pay for a state specific DOT permit to fly commercially. I doubt it generates much revenue for the state and it certainly does put a person through the type of testing that you advocate nor does it require the operator to get a physical that most other DOT permits require. It is merely a hassle the state has created that other states have not.
The state property and DOT permit are two statewide issues. In addition, many NC cities outlaw drones in city parks. In my opinion, this city park prohibition is much more comman in NC than occurs for cities in other states.
I tried to attach a photo that was legal to take in Pennsylvania but would not be in NC because the drone had taken off from a state highway right of way, however it was too large. It was just a river in a forested area with the drone 50 ft above the water looking upstream. It is a nice pretty photo that others have enjoyed. But it is not something that could be done in NC.
This is my opinion and observations based on a comparison of NC to other states. It is also based on using my drone to merely take nice pictures and have fun doing it. I am not looking to cause people or law enforcement to get upset.
I do suggest avid drone owners to vacation in a state other than NC.
Hopefully if someone disagrees with my opinion here, they can be civil.

 

[BigAl07]

Civil? If my previous comment to you seemed in any way uncivil I suggest you read it again.

Let me take some time to go over every portion of your reply and give my input. No need to let such a lengthy reply go to waste.

I rarely post on line because of a response like this. I get someone that starts by accusing me of illegal activity (trespassing) instead of a rational response. I thought I was clear but let me go into more detail of my reasoning.

My response was an accurate one with no insults or anything of the such. Sometimes typed text is hard to get any "feeling" from but I can assure you there were no insults in my reply.

I have never "had a problem" anywhere I have flown both in NC and in other states and that even includes NPS land (where it sounds like you had issues) because I research and follow the regulations. But for the person trying to photograph a house in a wooded neighborhood or with minimal property ( a condo for example) around the building or the hobbyist that wishes to photograph a spectacular view from the side of the road, NC's regulation is problematic. 49 other states allow a photographer to pull to the side of a road to take a scenic picture with a DLSR or a drone - no difference. NC does not.

First let me ask you... how many times have you asked for permission to legally fly from NPS land? Let's follow up with of those times, how many have you been approved/denied?

For me I'll go ahead and give you my statistics:
Requested: 17x
Denied: 1x
Flown NPS land legally: 16x
Flown NPS land illegally: 0x

My problem with NPS was easily resolved once I was told the process for getting the approval and the guidelines as to when I will and will NOT get the needed permission. Since that one denial I have not had any further problems because I understand (now) what is allowed and what isn't.

I still don't see how Land Use (and potential trespassing) is such a problem. Maybe I'm just lucky but I have done thousands of Real Estate projects and I have never had any issues with launch/landing with private property. Not only do I get the permissions we make every effort to notify all surroundings (close proximity) neighbors as to what we are doing. It takes a few minutes of our time and a LOT of extra business cards but it's worth while and pays BIG returns in additional business.

Also it's important to note that other than working with Law Enforcement/Emergency Services I haven't had the need to fly from the side of a road. I guess we're just different in that respect.

If that regulation does not cause you a problem - great. You are the first 107 operator in NC that I know that has that opinion. However most 107 folks in NC that I know, they work in urban areas. But even folks doing land surveys for construction or agriculture may find it convenient to launch from a highway right-of-way.

I have logged many thousand of hours of UAS flight (not a typo) with the vast majority being in NC. I do fly in neighboring states each month but most of my flights originate in NC. I fly in rural areas, urban areas, industrial areas and have NEVER had a problem with where I launch/land from. On some weekends I fly from as many as a dozen different job sites on a single day. Recently I flew for a client for 2 days straight and every single flight was in an urban and industrial area. A few of the sites were adjacent to a very busy NC airport (in fact it was in the same triangle area your location indicated you're "From"). Every single launch location was done with approval from the landowner or whoever was in charge of the property.

I don't see how my operations are such a fluke as I'm the only Part 107 operator from NC who doesn't have problems flying in the state. Where are you seeing all these UAS operators posting about having problems flying in NC? Maybe I need to reach out to some of the groups I am in and do a poll to see how many of them are having issues or losing business because of these horrible Land Use restrictions.

I still don't see how this is such a big deal. In the state of NC we have a large group of UAS operators (both Hobby and Part 107) and if you'll look online you will be hard pressed to find any disproportionate amount of complaints or problems flying in our beautiful and friendly state.

How many Drone Groups do you happen to belong to? How many are NC specific? I can easily point you to several if you'd like to browse them to understand how many thousands of us are flying right here in NC with no hassles or problems each and every day.

NC is also the only state that requires 107 operators to pay for a state specific DOT permit to fly commercially. I doubt it generates much revenue for the state and it certainly does put a person through the type of testing that you advocate nor does it require the operator to get a physical that most other DOT permits require. It is merely a hassle the state has created that other states have not.

Pay for? I've had mine since roughly 2014/2015 or so, unless I'm just forgetting it has never cost me a single penny. I'm up for renewal Feb 2020 so if there's a new fee attached I'll deal with it at that time.
If you'd like to inquire about this here's the contact information directly to the UAS Prog Manager for NC DOT Aviation Div:
Basil K. Yap
UAS Program Manager
(919) 814-0572 (phone)
[email protected]


I do think that all Airmen tests should have some degree of Flight Testing but I don't see a physical being needed but I wouldn't be against one. I already have to have it for my other licenses so it's a non-issue really.

The state property and DOT permit are two statewide issues. In addition, many NC cities outlaw drones in city parks. In my opinion, this city park prohibition is much more comman in NC than occurs for cities in other states.
I tried to attach a photo that was legal to take in Pennsylvania but would not be in NC because the drone had taken off from a state highway right of way, however it was too large. It was just a river in a forested area with the drone 50 ft above the water looking upstream. It is a nice pretty photo that others have enjoyed. But it is not something that could be done in NC.
This is my opinion and observations based on a comparison of NC to other states. It is also based on using my drone to merely take nice pictures and have fun doing it. I am not looking to cause people or law enforcement to get upset.
I do suggest avid drone owners to vacation in a state other than NC.
Hopefully if someone disagrees with my opinion here, they can be civil.

Research just this forum here or Phantom Pilots.... look how many states have cities and counties that restrict UAS operations.... Check out California. Also have you looked into the strict UAS photography laws in Texas?

I for one agree with not flying UAS in local parks etc. I also agree with not letting just anyone and everyone fly in State and National Parks. We go to those areas for recreation and to get away from technology. I don't want a UAS spoiling my weekend getaway.

I'm fine with you not liking NC and that's your right but NC is a very AVIATION forward state and we fly many man hours here daily with no issues. If you have such a tough time flying your UAS in NC maybe just leave it at home and enjoy our state from the ground the next time you're visiting.

If you find my reply uncivil then I'm unable to help you any further. That's about as civil and neutral toned as I can be. If my above comments hurt your feelings in any way I do apologize as that is/was not my intent. I merely wanted to discuss how NC is not discouraging to UAS operators and we have a very large and happy UAS community which is thriving across this beautiful state.

Sincerely,
Allen from NC

 

[Bob4131]

Allen,
My response was to Chip initially, you responded by accusing me of trespassing. Sensitive me felt that wasn't civil. I doubt I will say anything that changes your opinion but for others, a few comments:
1) My success in flying legally in NPS is 6 for 6. Does that mean I win or you?
2) You admit to flying primarily in NC, I am merely providing a different perspective and comparing NC to other states. I am not saying it is impossible to fly in NC. Most of my flights have been in other states but I am getting close to a thousand flights in NC. I was surprised it was that high.
3) I am in three groups, one NC based. I have never conducted a poll just informal discussions. The number one complaint I hear from 107 pilots that do real estate photography is they compete for business against folks without a 107 / insurance / etc.. So the people that try to do things the right way are further hamstrung by regulations that seem pointless. I got a private msg this morning from a 107 operator that does aerial surveys of farmers' fields not in NC. In the spring, when the field is a couple of feet of mud, he often takes off from a highway right of way rather than wearing waders into a field to launch. He specifically stated he did not want to get "flamed" by you so he was not going to post publicly.
4) I stand corrected, I was told NC was going to start charging a fee for their permit. My point was that this is just bureaucracy- in no way does that permit make flying a drone safer. No other state does it.
5) I almost listed Texas as #2 to NC, for their long list of restrictions but they are very site specific as opposed to NC's broad regulations.
6) You are fine with no flying in local parks, fine - that is your opinion. For the beginner that lives in an apartment, an unoccupied city park soccer field is an ideal location to learn to fly. I am not advocating drone flights for all over Old Faithful. I am amazed that other cities encourage drone flying in popular areas - for example the city park overlooking Baltimore's Inner Harbor.
7) Am I to be impressed you flew near RDU? That took perhaps a minute to get authorization on your phone. I respect you are an experienced UAV operator with alot of experience in a particular aspect of UAV use.
You keep referring to the number of flights you make to take real estate photography and I get the impression that you feel your experience is the only experience of value. I am merely expressing my opinions from a different perspective. You even stated you were going to poll other real estate photographers to determine how much business they have lost due to this specific regulation. First, most UAS operators do so for reasons other than commercial real estate photography, don't they matter? Second, I know of several 107 NC operators that routinely violate this regulation but they aren't going to publicly admit that on a public forum. They also have done 60mph in a 55. I would not do that, but I am a stickler for personally following regulations. Others take a more, "Let me follow it if it makes sense attitude". Third, you could say you don't care about hobbyists, but are pretty real estate photos something we cann't live without? I know people that are opposed to real estate photography by UAV. I merely advocate that you be aware of concerns of others. Especially considering how restrictive NC is compared to other states.
I am a resident and taxpayer in NC for many decades not a visitor. There are many aspects of NC I enjoy, the restriction on using NC state right-of-way is not one and is uniquely restrictive compared to other states.
Personally I have often gone to a stranger's house in North Dakota, Florida, NH, etc to request permission to launch from their yard because I want to take a pretty photo of something. But I have also pulled to the side of the road in various states to take a picture in the middle of no where.
I am also upset NC is one of a few states that does not allow P2P investing and only trading on the secondary market. That does not mean I plan to leave. NC is not perfect.
Finally as a friendly suggestion, since you publicly announced you have launched from a NC right of way as a private individual - you should insure your insurance is valid merely because you are "working with law enforcement." I assume you have that exception documented from both NC and your insurance agency, if not I suggest you do such. Personally I would have a lawyer review your usage and policies. If you ever have an accident, I could see opposing council looking at this item closely. I totally agree that it could be justified, reasonable and safe to do so, I am just suggesting you insure you are covered. I am not aware of NCDOT granting police and emergency personnel authorization to give private citizens authorization to launch from DOT property. They may, I don't know. I assume you have, but just in case you haven't.
I am sure I have not changed your opinion to consider other points of view. I respect yours and again am happy for you. I wish you great success in your business. In general, I advocate the use of technology to improve our lives. However I am opposed to excess regulation in general because I feel it degrades respect for all laws. Your comment that you would be ok if a physical was required to fly a UAV because it would not affect you is where you and I differ. I strongly oppose silly restrictions even if they don't affect me because people then decide they can ignore other regulations even "important" ones. Excess regulation in general also has an effect on restricting GDP growth and over time makes us all poorer.

I am grounded today because of snow but hopefully I take pictures of a friend's cabin tomorrow. It should be pretty under 6" of snow.

Thanks
Bob

 

[BigAl07]

My only reply to that list of randomness:

I have flown from Right of Ways but ONLY as a part of an official Emergency Incident. I am pretty sure I stated
"Also it's important to note that other than working with Law Enforcement/Emergency Services I haven't had the need to fly from the side of a road. " I fly 100% legal each and every flight.

I can assure you my credentials and insurance are more than adequate for the various operations I take on but I appreciate your concern. I am credentialed both local and state for the operations I undertake. Again your concern is appreciated.


We'll have to just agree to disagree and each go on about our separate ways.

 

[JAW]

90% of my flying is in NC, on the east side. Never had a problem. Just wish the FAA would free up more LAANC airports near me. Particularly Coastal Carolina (New Bern). I'm inside a 400' grid square with no LAANC. In an August email, the FAA told me to expect LAANC rollout by year end. They've got less than two weeks ?

 

[BigAl07]

90% of my flying is in NC, on the east side. Never had a problem. Just wish the FAA would free up more LAANC airports near me.

Yes sir you have some "interesting" areas down there where you fly for sure. Hopefully LAANC will keep expanding to make yours a lot easier.

 

[JAW]

Yes sir you have some "interesting" areas down there where you fly for sure. Hopefully LAANC will keep expanding to make yours a lot easier.

Ya gotta love Marine aviation!

 

[droneofarc]

I agree with this. Let them take it at an approved FAA testing site just like we do for the Part 107 but at a much cheaper price.

 

[old_hat]

I’m dialed in - they said this webinar does not apply to recreational users.

 

[aerials]

I’m dialed in - they said this webinar does not apply to recreational users.

Can you give us updates?

I registered and got a meeting ID but the session won’t let me in.

 

[old_hat]

Listed changes- they will publish this presentation on their website

 

[Ayak]

 

[DoomMeister]

I agree with this. Let them take it at an approved FAA testing site just like we do for the Part 107 but at a much cheaper price.

While I have no real problem with taking a test at an official site, it will be impractical to do so for the sheer number of individuals that will need to be tested.

 

[DanMan32]

I’m dialed in - they said this webinar does not apply to recreational users.

I knew it!

 

[Popeye]

I personally think it should be administered just like Part 107 and every other FAA Airmen's test. Otherwise it holds no merit (not that it will hold a lot either way). Just my 2 cents.

How can my 11-year-old cousin play will his drone then?
he's not old enough to even vote how do they expect him to pass an aeronautical test

 

[BigAl07]

How can my 11-year-old cousin play will his drone then?
he's not old enough to even vote how do they expect him to pass an aeronautical test

First off welcome to the forum.

Buy him one that isn't able to fly high or far enough to pose a problem in the NAS.

I was able to drive a car and make life decisions long before I had the luxury of being voting age. Maybe he should get some toy grade UAS until he's old enough to take the test. Would you buy an 11 year old a brand new sports car and question the Govt why he can't take the driving test?

And for the record... we don't know any details about the test... Age limits, depth of the subject matter etc. These conclusions are jumping the gun just a pinch wouldn't you say?