FBI investigates mysterious drones spotted over New Jersey

[Bad Santa]

Well before this thread gets locked, did you guys hear about the drones seen in Japan with little men riding on top of them? I kid you not!

Technically, if men are riding on top, they aren't drones.

 

[AMann]

Technically, if men are riding on top, they aren't drones.

Uhhh, good point taken, but little golden men, bald, and weighing just a few grams each…

 

[Cafguy]

If this was true then we can all just do whatever we want.

We pretty much can in the U.S.... at the moment. This story (obviously put in place by the Anti-Drone community) is doing exactly what they want it to do........stoke fear and raise questions.

I would suggest to you, however, that states may criminalize flying drones in a manner that violates federal law or FAA regulations or in any other way that is not preempted like nuisance, trespass, privacy, harassment, voyeurism, etc.

The FAA decided long ago to place certain restrictions on Drones. So far we have only gotten to the RID part and yes the only way to be caught would be for an official to examine your Drone, There is no other way!
In the coming years there will be more restrictions on Drones and it is news stories like this that will help get these restrictive laws passed sooner.
The free flying days of Recreational pilots flying Drones over 250 grams is quickly closing. Pilots with "bigger" Drones and no 107 cert are going to find themselves regulated to a very few spots. Hello A.M.A.
This story even has us, (the ones more knowledgable on the subject) Debating right and wrong.
Soon the Government will be asking the people how we can solve this "problem". and the answer will be to regulate where you fly.
How did WE get to this Debate? Really. The "BASE" talked about on this report is a reserve center parking lot!!!! just look at google maps in Morris county New Jersey!........and While some people were inconvenienced during their nightly sleep somehow, There is nothing in this story to indicate something was going on that deserved national news coverage!
A drone operator or group of Drone operators played a prank and maybe busted a regulation (probably not) Thats about it.
Stories like this give us Drone pilots a bad reputation! BUT For the ANTI-DRONE COMMUNITY these stories are a Goldmine!

 

[Meta4]

We pretty much can in the U.S.... at the moment. This story (obviously put in place by the Anti-Drone community) is doing exactly what they want it to do........stoke fear and raise questions.

In the coming years there will be more restrictions on Drones and it is news stories like this that will help get these restrictive laws passed sooner.

The free flying days of Recreational pilots flying Drones over 250 grams is quickly closing. Pilots with "bigger" Drones and no 107 cert are going to find themselves regulated to a very few spots.

The sky is falling .. the sky is falling

This story even has us, (the ones more knowledgable on the subject) Debating right and wrong.

Soon the Government will be asking the people how we can solve this "problem". and the answer will be to regulate where you fly.

This story is about a few people saying they have seen lights in the sky.
That's all that's known.
But you've conflated it into a tale of doom and gloom.

Stories like this give us Drone pilots a bad reputation! BUT For the ANTI-DRONE COMMUNITY these stories are a Goldmine!

Really?
How does a report of a few harmless lights in the sky getting a little publicity have any effect on recreational drone flyers.
And I thought the suggestions of car-sized drones that hover all night and come back again each night was fanciful.

 

[Cafguy]

How does a report of a few harmless lights in the sky getting a little publicity have any effect on recreational drone flyers/

Your kidding? right?

 

[MS Coast]

Nah, I'm going to stay on topic and talk about the drone sightings. You can head on over to copwatchers.com forum or wherever they discuss police activity if you want more information on what they do or don't do. You really don't have to dive into every tongue-in-cheek comment I make, you are certainly welcome to believe the true number is 2 or 3 cars or whatever. I want to talk about federal law enforcement and how they are handling the current situation that is alarming parts the country. Again, the public is demanding answers and they deserve a plausible explanation. You just can ignore this but only bring it up when it's convenient to claim they are halting airports or preventing helicopter airlifts or interfering with wildfires.

When I start a new thread on local law enforcement and post the video (later when it is appropriate) so you can see for your own eyes, be sure to dive in and comment on it instead of "I ain't gonna watch that; that's fake....." or "I don't have time for that, they instigated this..." or whatever excuse you'll come up with.

Your post #42 - "At this point, all someone has to do is call 911 and claim there's a drone spying in their bedroom window and a dozen cop cars will be dispatched and go looking for the pilot hoping to make a violent arrest."

I object to spreading misinformation, fear mongering, and baseless complaining.

 

[Chip]

What's with all the emotional condemnation of the FAA? I hate to see a person, or even a federal agency, maligned without legitimate cause.

What emotional condemnation are you referring to exactly? The FAA is the agency in charge of regulating operation of aircraft in the national airspace. Its mission includes protecting and informing the public. The FAA has itself characterized drones as small as 250 grams to be a threat to national security especially when operated beyond line of sight by anonymous persons with unknown intentions. I think the agency should step in and say something, even if its just a proper investigation is underway headed by the FBI with assistance from state and local law enforcement.

Operating a drone without RID is not a felony. Most all law enforcement officers in almost all situations wouldn't really care, and only a hyper-caffeinated Barney Fife type would presume a hostile and dangerous situation. Are you aware of any provision in any set of laws for arresting a person flying a drone without RID? There's nothing in the Part 89 regs.

As I mentioned earlier, many states have laws which require the drone to be registered and operated in accordance with federal law and FAA regulations. Violations may be criminalized. There is nothing in the Part 89 regs because those are civil regulations not state criminal laws. I guarantee you that flying a drone not registered is an arrestable federal crime. If you are flying a drone with no remote ID, are you flying a registered drone?

Can you cite a single case of the FAA not responding to a request from law enforcement to provide the identity of the registrant of a drone?

Call the FAA in DC and several local district offices around the country and ask them to explain who gets access to drone registration database and the exact procedure and time it takes to process a request. Ask the FAA for the cite to the regulations which explain exactly how this database is set up and operated, who has access, the rules governing release of information, how privacy is protected, and whether search warrants or court orders or probable cause are required.

 

[MS Coast]

What emotional condemnation are you referring to exactly?

Example: "The FAA made sure it got a golden throne at the head of the table and got to start with its fat regulatory paws on the throat of the cash cow."

As I mentioned earlier, many states have laws which require the drone to be registered and operated in accordance with federal law and FAA regulations. Violations may be criminalized.

Examples of criminal statutes regarding registration of drones?

I guarantee you that flying a drone not registered is an arrestable federal crime.

Reference, please.

I think it is common knowledge. Call the FAA in DC and local district offices and ask them to explain who gets access to drone registration database and the exact procedure and time it takes to process a request. Ask the FAA for the cite to the regulations which explain exactly how this database is set up and operated, who has access, the rules governing release of information, how privacy is protected, and whether search warrants or court orders or probable cause are required.

None of those things are related to your charge that the FAA is not supporting law enforcement requests for information on the registrants of drones involved in accidents or crimes.

 

[Cafguy]

The FAA has itself characterized drones as small as 250 grams to be a threat to national security

The FAA has NEVER claimed that small Drones are a threat to National Security

when operated beyond line of sight by anonymous persons with unknown intentions.

beyond line of site is ILLEGAL and as far as unknown intension and anonymous persons goes That pretty much describes anyone flying a Drone, Does it not.

I think the agency should step in and say something, even if its just a proper investigation

How would you like the Government to investigate this and what is it that you think they are not Doing. Remember we are most likely looking for Pranksters I can't see spending tons of tax dollars on that!

I guarantee you that flying a drone not registered is an arrestable federal crime. If you are flying a drone with no remote ID, are you flying a registered drone?

The only rule for flying RC aircraft ANY local law enforcement officer can ask you about is your T.R.U.S.T. Card and that is only because there are local laws requiring the Card. Local police CANNOT arrest or investigate you for a FEDERAL crime this has been discussed before. A local police officer CANNOT assume the position of a Federal officer.
There are very few "arrestable" Drone offenses that I can think of , Flying without a registration or RID while illegal is NOT arrestable!!
Whomever is teaching you about RID is completely wrong. and if you think that air traffic control in your area have any idea you are flying your drone around town you are confusing RID with ADS-B. BUT Don't take my word for it ask the FAA or simply look around you. Where are these RID detecting officers? Where is this so-called RID equipment that of course does not exist.
In the U.S. while flying Drones you are on the honor system. as long as you do not break the law in front of someone that reports it, or you do not cause injury or Damage that is reported...... you are on your own. nobody is watching you fly drones on any screen anywhere, Except maybe around Disney and the white house) and the only way the FAA would ever know your RID number (right now) is to READ your registration number that you put on the outside of the Drone and check that you have applied or have an RID number. If you think that the FAA people go around with RID "readers" just ask an FAA official if you could see one.

 

[Chip]

Example: "The FAA made sure it got a golden throne at the head of the table and got to start with its fat regulatory paws on the throat of the cash cow."

Okay, that may have been a little too much rhetorical hyperbole. I am sorry if it offended you. I am curious though whether you were equally offended by comments about certain legislators in regard to the DJI drone ban?

Examples of criminal statutes regarding registration of drones?

Reference, please.

Do you recall the threads regarding the guys in Ohio who flew drones over an NFL and and an MLB game? My recollection is the federal court charges included flying an unregistered drone and flying in a TFR and I cited the statute.

None of those things are related to your charge that the FAA is not supporting law enforcement requests for information on the registrants of drones involved in accidents or crimes.

Okay. Well my suggestion is if you wish to dig deeper then do some research and make some phone calls to the FAA. Ask the exact questions I posed. If you report back that all is well, the regulations are in place, and the system is running like a well oiled machine, we will be most thrilled and appreciative.

 

[MS Coast]

Okay, that may have been a little too much rhetorical hyperbole. I am sorry if it offended you.

I was offended only by the misinformation in the comment. I was amused by the flowery language.

Do you recall the threads regarding the guys in Ohio who flew drones over an NFL and and an MLB game? My recollection is the federal court charges included flying an unregistered drone and flying in a TFR and I cited the statute.

They were not arrested for flying an unregistered drone. They were charged with flying an unregistered drone after being arrested for other more serious infractions.

Okay. Well my suggestion is if you wish to dig deeper then do some research and make some phone calls to the FAA. Ask the exact questions I posed. If you report back that all is well, the regulations are in place, and the system is running like a well oiled machine, we will be most thrilled and appreciative.

I see nothing to suggest that the FAA is failing to cooperate with law enforcement, as you claimed. Can anyone cite a single case of the FAA not providing registration information requested by law enforcement?

 

[Chip]

The FAA has NEVER claimed that small Drones are a threat to National Security

Did you read the FAA's legal brief and listen to its oral argument in the Remote ID court case a few years back?

beyond line of site is ILLEGAL and as far as unknown intension and anonymous persons goes That pretty much describes anyone flying a Drone, Does it not.

Yes it does. An anonymous person with unknown intentions. That is why the FAA argued that Remote ID is one valuable way to infer whether the drone pilot is friend or foe from a distance. That is also why I am saying at some point the FAA should step up and make a statement to address public concern. I had no idea this would be deemed so controversial!

The only rule for flying RC aircraft ANY local law enforcement officer can ask you about is your T.R.U.S.T. Card and that is only because there are local laws requiring the Card. Local police CANNOT arrest or investigate you for a FEDERAL crime this has been discussed before. A local police officer CANNOT assume the position of a Federal officer. There are very few "arrestable" Drone offenses that I can think of , Flying without a registration or RID while illegal is NOT arrestable!!

Okay well we will have to agree to disagree. Parts of what you say are true but I think some parts are way off. I have tried to explain that states may criminalize drone operations which violate federal law or FAA regulations or violate various kinds of state laws including reckless endangerment, harassment, invasion of privacy, stalking, voyeurism, trespass, etc.

Whomever is teaching you about RID is completely wrong.

I am happy to leave you with your opinion. If I am wrong, well I am erring on the side of caution. If you are flying with no registration and no remote ID over 249 grams then I think you are taking big risk. But by all means, you do you!

 

[Chip]

I was offended only by the misinformation in the comment. I was amused by the flowery language.

What information exactly?

They were not arrested for flying an unregistered drone. They were charged with flying an unregistered drone after being arrested for other more serious infractions.

It seems you are now moving the goal posts. You concede they were charged with the crime of flying an unregistered drone but now argue they were not arrested. But getting back to my earlier question: If you fly a 250 gram+ drone without Remote ID are you flying an unregistered drone?

I see nothing to suggest that the FAA is failing to cooperate with law enforcement, as you claimed. Can anyone cite a single case of the FAA not providing registration information requested by law enforcement?

I did not say or mean intentionally failing to cooperate. I said the FAA currently lacks a regulatory framework or the resources to timely and uniformly process demands for owner registration by nationwide law enforcement.

 

[MS Coast]

\

What information exactly?

Post 29.

It seems you are now moving the goal posts. You concede they were charged with the crime of flying an unregistered drone but now argue they were not arrested.

Goal posts are immobile. That person was not arrested for flying an unregistered drone. They were arrested on serious charges. if not for those charges they would not have been arrested. No one is going to be arrested only for flying an unregistered drone.

But getting back to my earlier question: If you fly a 250 gram+ drone without Remote ID are you flying an unregistered drone?

If it's not registered, yes. If it's registered, no.

I did not say or mean intentionally failing to cooperate. I said the FAA currently lacks a regulatory framework or the resources to timely and uniformly process demands for owner registration by nationwide law enforcement.

I know of nothing to indicate that the FAA is failing to process requests from law enforcement regarding drone registrant information, whatever the reason. Can you provide a reference or cite instances where it's happening?

 

[Chip]

Goal posts are immobile.

Yes they are supposed to be. Hence my analogy. You began by arguing that flying an unregistered drone is not a crime. When I gave you proof otherwise you then argued well its not an arrestable crime which by the way is wrong.

That person was not arrested for flying an unregistered drone. They were arrested on serious charges. if not for those charges they would not have been arrested. No one is going to be arrested only for flying an unregistered drone.

Yes I get it. You now concede flying an unregistered drone is a crime but argue its not an arrestable offense and "no one is going to be arrested only for flying an unregistered drone."

If it's not registered, yes. If it's registered, no.

Okay, I get it it. Your position is that flying drone without remote ID is not a crime and no big deal.

I know of nothing to indicate that the FAA is failing to process requests from law enforcement regarding drone registrant information, whatever the reason. Can you provide a reference or cite instances where it's happening?

Okay, the old "I know nothing to indicate (such and such) now prove me wrong." I have now encouraged you to make a few phone calls and do a little online research and go from there. I am okay with you believing everything is great with the FAA Drone Registration Base.

 

[Chip]

Is there a penalty for failing to register?​

Failure to register an unmanned aircraft that is required to be registered may result in regulatory and criminal penalties. The FAA may assess civil penalties up to $27,500. Criminal penalties include fines of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment for up to three years.

https://www.faa.gov/faq/there-penalty-failing-register

 

[Chip]

They were not arrested for flying an unregistered drone. They were charged with flying an unregistered drone after being arrested for other more serious infractions.

I went to the court file and double checked. Sorry, but you are mistaken. Here is an excerpt from the brief filed by Dailon Dabney's lawyer in the federal appellate court:

"STATEMENT OF THE CASE
On January 15, 2022, Appellant Dailon Dabney piloted his drone aircraft over the airspace of the Cincinnati Bengals football game without FAA permission. As a result, on September 21, 2022, an indictment was returned in the Southern District of Ohio charging him with: one count of operating an unregistered drone, in violation of 49 U.S.C. § 46306(b)(5), and one count of conducting an aircraft operation in a flight restricted zone, in violation of 49U.S.C. § 46307...

So, it was a federal grand jury indictment for operating an unregistered drone and conducting an aircraft operation in a flight restricted zone. That means that a US Attorney in Ohio convened a Grand Jury to review and approve both sets of felony charges. These are not infractions. They are felonies.

 

[Chip]

Correction. Flying over the NFL Stadium in violation of a TFR was a misdemeanor. Flying an unregistered drone was the felony. I checked the prosecutor's filings in the Dabney case and here is the critical excerpt:

A. Dabney’s Conviction and Admitted Probation Violations.
Dabney was indicted for flying an unregistered drone through a temporary flight restriction area. Specifically, Dabney flew his drone into Paycor Stadium during an NFL playoff game, passing over the playing field, the players, and the crowd. Pursuant to a plea agreement, the government dismissed the felony charge and allowed Dabney to plead guilty to the misdemeanor offense, flying a drone in a temporary flight restriction area.

So it is the exact opposite of what you suggested MS Coast.

 

[mavic3usa]

Is there a penalty for failing to register?​

Failure to register an unmanned aircraft that is required to be registered may result in regulatory and criminal penalties. The FAA may assess civil penalties up to $27,500. Criminal penalties include fines of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment for up to three years.

https://www.faa.gov/faq/there-penalty-failing-register

We've covered this before for everyone who says "but you won't be arrested or jailed for this, it has never happened...." to which I always respond with "ok well if that's the case, would you partner with me and help me get the law amended to remove the imprisonment language and add that law enforcement is prohibited from making an arrest for this statute." That's when I heard crickets. I'm an activist so I get it....nobody wants to partner with me for anything; right or wrong.

 

[MS Coast]

Correction. Flying over the NFL Stadium in violation of a TFR was a misdemeanor. Flying an unregistered drone was the felony. I checked the prosecutor's filings in the Dabney case and here is the critical excerpt:

A. Dabney’s Conviction and Admitted Probation Violations.
Dabney was indicted for flying an unregistered drone through a temporary flight restriction area. Specifically, Dabney flew his drone into Paycor Stadium during an NFL playoff game, passing over the playing field, the players, and the crowd. Pursuant to a plea agreement, the government dismissed the felony charge and allowed Dabney to plead guilty to the misdemeanor offense, flying a drone in a temporary flight restriction area.

So it is the exact opposite of what you suggested MS Coast.

Well, now. This is interesting. It appears that flying an unregistered drone may indeed be a felony.

But let's look at the court's actual charging documents and the final verdict. The first item you mention is the defense attorney's brief and the second seems to be the prosecution's filing to the court in a subsequent parole violation case. Neither reflect the actual verdict that was handed down by the court.