H.265 vs ProRes 422HQ. Sample footage?

[CanadaDrone]

I also want to clarify
Is h265 10 bit dlog_m has 4:2:2 or it simple 4:2:0 as m2p / a2s

It should be 4:2:0 unless you are shooting ProRes, then it is 4:2:2.

The bitrates are pretty low still for the non-ProRes so you may not want 4:2:2 there anyway.

 

[CanadaDrone]

These are the big questions we all want answered, I think eventually they will have to reduce the price of the cine package to sell it, but it may already be too late.

The biggest cost in the Cine drone itself is the ProRes license from Apple, which DJI sells separately for the Inspire2 line for $500 USD. That probably isn't going to change, at least not significantly. The biggest cost in the Cine package is the $1200 smart controller, which again looking at the gen1 SC, is unlikely to be discounted significantly anytime soon. Overall it's a very specialized package that appeals to a specific audience. Most people will not need it.

 

[manowar_gub]

It should be 4:2:0 unless you are shooting ProRes, then it is 4:2:2.

The bitrates are pretty low still for the non-ProRes so you may not want 4:2:2 there anyway.

If you shoot 2160p 4:2:0 and downscale it to 1080p, you will get full 4:4:4 (RGB) video
So if you need really high quality 2160p, you need to shoot at least 4:2:2, to save more chrominance data

 

[mysteryfern]

Potato jet shows some compression artifacts in h264 fast scenes. Even so, I got the base model and I do this professionally. H265 10bit has been an amazing acquisition format on the Sony cameras. Color correcting and re-outputting as h265 Main10 files provides all the pop I was seeing with prores uploads. Plus prores HQ is annoyingly large file sizes.

 

[canadian drone videos]

These are the big questions we all want answered, I think eventually they will have to reduce the price of the cine package to sell it, but it may already be too late.

Ya that Cine is way over priced. There’s no way an SSD and Pro res licence is worth what... $3000 Canadian. I base this on the fact I’d also rather have the stock controller.

 

[CanadaDrone]

Ya that Cine is way over priced. There’s no way an SSD and Pro res licence is worth what... $3000 Canadian. I base this on the fact I’d also rather have the stock controller.

It's actually quite a bit less than that even if you ignore the RC Pro. In Canada, DJI charges a $2,410 premium on top of the Fly More Combo for the Cine model, which adds the RC Pro, ProRes Licence, 8 ND filters, and "Lightspeed cable" (aka standard USB C).

Take out $1,249 for the RC Pro, ~$625 for the ProRes license (based on $500 USD they charge for it elsewhere as a standalone), and maybe another ~$200 for the set of 8 filters & cable and you're left with what appears to be ~$350 for the 1TB SSD which isn't unreasonable. What DJI actually values each of those items at in their bundles we will never know, but we can make a pretty good educated guess.

Because of DJI's relatively high accessory prices, I think for many people the most economic way to purchase a M3 is to build your own bundle. Ditch the bag, grab some third party filters (most people don't need 8 ND filters on a drone with an adjustable aperture), and a lot of people probably don't need that third battery with 40+ min flight times. You also probably don't need to start off with 8 spare props. Plenty of money to be saved if you don't need absolutely everything, but if you do, the combo's represent good value compared to DJI's own individual MSRPs. The RC Pro is available separately, and according to DJI will soon will be available as a bundle with the regular Fly More Combo.

The combo I would build for myself including the RC Pro would cost around ~$4,200 CAD including ND filters, spare battery, and a much better charger. I paid around $3,500 for the M2P bundle and Smart Controller a few years ago, so for the extra ~$700 honestly I see it as a bargain for what has been improved + the necessary premium for global shortages. Everyone's needs are different though.

 

[canadian drone videos]

It's actually quite a bit less than that even if you ignore the RC Pro. In Canada, DJI charges a $2,410 premium on top of the Fly More Combo for the Cine model, which adds the RC Pro, ProRes Licence, 8 ND filters, and "Lightspeed cable" (aka standard USB C).

Take out $1,249 for the RC Pro, ~$625 for the ProRes license (based on $500 USD they charge for it elsewhere as a standalone), and maybe another ~$200 for the set of 8 filters & cable and you're left with what appears to be ~$350 for the 1TB SSD which isn't unreasonable. What DJI actually values each of those items at in their bundles we will never know, but we can make a pretty good educated guess.

Because of DJI's relatively high accessory prices, I think for many people the most economic way to purchase a M3 is to build your own bundle. Ditch the bag, grab some third party filters (most people don't need 8 ND filters on a drone with an adjustable aperture), and a lot of people probably don't need that third battery with 40+ min flight times. You also probably don't need to start off with 8 spare props. Plenty of money to be saved if you don't need absolutely everything, but if you do, the combo's represent good value compared to DJI's own individual MSRPs. The RC Pro is available separately, and according to DJI will soon will be available as a bundle with the regular Fly More Combo.

The combo I would build for myself including the RC Pro would cost around ~$4,200 CAD including ND filters, spare battery, and a much better charger. I paid around $3,500 for the M2P bundle and Smart Controller a few years ago, so for the extra ~$700 honestly I see it as a bargain for what has been improved + the necessary premium for global shortages. Everyone's needs are different though.

The only DJI product that I’d buy that’s not found in the basic package is an extra battery, which I bought separately. Don’t want DJI filters, or any of that other crap. So we’re I to buy a M3 Cine first thing I’m doing is ordering a regular remote and see if I can sell that Pro that comes with the drone, throw all 8 ND filters in the trash, zero use for any filters that are not polarized, that’s my preference.

I bought this sweet aftermarket tablet holder that has a 1/4 inch Tripod thread on the bottom, I’m loving it. Can’t see moose dear or bear on a stupid 5” screen from 400 feet up, pointless, so the RC pro is junk, which is why I didn’t buy the P4P Plus 4 years ago.

DJI made the M3 Cine only available in a fly more package with the RC pro, I guess they were stoned when they decided to do that. It’s a myth that anyone needs pro res, not even the pros, this sensor is not big enough to put its video in a movie theatre. Any customer that demands pro res from a 4/3rd sensor is just being a ( Mod Removed Language). There’s no difference, you want to talk colour grading, let’s be realistic I say, I could shoot 8 bit regular 265 or Dlog 10 bit, or Pro Res, put all three side by side and 99.9% of people wouldn’t know which is which?

Technology is so good these days you’d need to see the data profile of the video to know what your looking at. No one can tell the difference between 8 and 10 or 12 bit, anyone who says they can I say put your money where your mouth is. So this whole Cine thing is more of a scam and to please idiot customers then anything else. No customer can tell the difference till they see the file size af a 60 second clip. I have no doubt lots of guys will disagree with me, but if I had a way to keep them honest I’d bet them $500 any day of the week they can’t tell the difference.

 

[SmilingOgre]

The only DJI product that I’d buy that’s not found in the basic package is an extra battery, which I bought separately. Don’t want DJI filters, or any of that other crap. So we’re I to buy a M3 Cine first thing I’m doing is ordering a regular remote and see if I can sell that Pro that comes with the drone, throw all 8 ND filters in the trash, zero use for any filters that are not polarized, that’s my preference.

I bought this sweet aftermarket tablet holder that has a 1/4 inch Tripod thread on the bottom, I’m loving it. Can’t see moose dear or bear on a stupid 5” screen from 400 feet up, pointless, so the RC pro is junk, which is why I didn’t buy the P4P Plus 4 years ago.

DJI made the M3 Cine only available in a fly more package with the RC pro, I guess they were stoned when they decided to do that. It’s a myth that anyone needs pro res, not even the pros, this sensor is not big enough to put its video in a movie theatre. Any customer that demands pro res from a 4/3rd sensor is just being a (Mod Removed Language)There’s no difference, you want to talk colour grading, let’s be realistic I say, I could shoot 8 bit regular 265 or Dlog 10 bit, or Pro Res, put all three side by side and 99.9% of people wouldn’t know which is which?

Technology is so good these days you’d need to see the data profile of the video to know what your looking at. No one can tell the difference between 8 and 10 or 12 bit, anyone who says they can I say put your money where your mouth is. So this whole Cine thing is more of a scam and to please idiot customers then anything else. No customer can tell the difference till they see the file size af a 60 second clip. I have no doubt lots of guys will disagree with me, but if I had a way to keep them honest I’d bet them $500 any day of the week they can’t tell the difference.

I gave this a like because I honor your opinion and I agree with much of what you have written. Having said that, I see significant differences in what different 4k cameras can produce. The BMPCC 4k gives me amazing latitude in post compared to the other cameras I own. Now, will my customers see the difference? Non-sequitur. I do video for me, not customers, not youtube trolls, not my wife, not my cat. It's like working with pine and oak. I can do so much more with the oak. 99% of youtube trolls can't tell the difference between a red and a cell phone, agreed. I can't comment on prores, I don't work in that world. But I can talk about H.265 vs Braw. Granted, once rendered to mov or mp4 much of what I do gets squashed but much is preserved. BTW, many a b-roll has been on the big screen from 4/3 sensors to include the one in the bmpcc 4k. Having said that many a tv show e.g. deadliest catch, Alaska the last frontier are filmed with camcorders and gopros. The clarity is there and it's entertaining. Obviously again opinion.

 

[canadian drone videos]

I gave this a like because I honor your opinion and I agree with much of what you have written. Having said that, I see significant differences in what different 4k cameras can produce. The BMPCC 4k gives me amazing latitude in post compared to the other cameras I own. Now, will my customers see the difference? Non-sequitur. I do video for me, not customers, not youtube trolls, not my wife, not my cat. It's like working with pine and oak. I can do so much more with the oak. 99% of youtube trolls can't tell the difference between a red and a cell phone, agreed. I can't comment on prores, I don't work in that world. But I can talk about H.265 vs Braw. Granted, once rendered to mov or mp4 much of what I do gets squashed but much is preserved. BTW, many a b-roll has been on the big screen from 4/3 sensors to include the one in the bmpcc 4k. Having said that many a tv show e.g. deadliest catch, Alaska the last frontier are filmed with camcorders and gopros. The clarity is there and it's entertaining. Obviously again opinion.

Good points, but oak is harder to sand lol.

Yes there are definitely differences from one camera to the next, I meant the various types of codex the M3 can shoot. They are all excellent the difference is trivial, like bragging rights. Shows like Deadliest Catch look very good on TV I think, with today’s technology the only thing we need to worry about is focus and exposure and of course composure.

There is no difference between a 4-8 k screen, except bragging rights. No difference between 4-5 G wifi either. At this point they will need to think outside the box to bring new technology to the table. This is why it’s my opinion the M3 has maxed out what we’re going to get from today’s technology in a folding drone this size.

 

[CanadaDrone]

The only DJI product that I’d buy that’s not found in the basic package is an extra battery, which I bought separately. Don’t want DJI filters, or any of that other crap. So we’re I to buy a M3 Cine first thing I’m doing is ordering a regular remote and see if I can sell that Pro that comes with the drone, throw all 8 ND filters in the trash, zero use for any filters that are not polarized, that’s my preference.

Seems we agree that building your own combo is the most economic. I suspect that will be the case for a lot of people.

I bought this sweet aftermarket tablet holder that has a 1/4 inch Tripod thread on the bottom, I’m loving it. Can’t see moose dear or bear on a stupid 5” screen from 400 feet up, pointless, so the RC pro is junk, which is why I didn’t buy the P4P Plus 4 years ago.

This is highly subjective - I personally much prefer the RC Pro style remote, as do many others. I have also been extremely happy with the outgoing Smart Controller over the last several years. Nice that there are options for everyone. I don't really see the point in calling something "junk" just because it doesn't work for you personally - it's great that you love your tablet mount, but suggesting that anyone who doesn't share your opinion has opted to use pointless junk seems unnecessary.

DJI made the M3 Cine only available in a fly more package with the RC pro, I guess they were stoned when they decided to do that. It’s a myth that anyone needs pro res, not even the pros, this sensor is not big enough to put its video in a movie theatre. Any customer that demands pro res from a 4/3rd sensor is just being a (Mod Removed Language)There’s no difference, you want to talk colour grading, let’s be realistic I say, I could shoot 8 bit regular 265 or Dlog 10 bit, or Pro Res, put all three side by side and 99.9% of people wouldn’t know which is which?

I have to disagree with you here. A 4/3 sensor is more than capable of producing "movie" quality footage. There are feature length films shot on 4/3 sensors (cameras like the Panasonic GH4/5 are incredibly popular in the production world), Netflix purchases videos that have been shot on even less, and high profile movies like The Martian have used GoPros (tiny 1/2.3" sensor) for some footage. If it's good enough for Ridley Scott, I think it's fair to say that there is a lot more to it than just looking at sensor size - it's about using the right tool for the job. The idea that 10bit or ProRes or whatever else is only useful if you are using Hollywood-grade video equipment or making a movie for theaters is nonsense. If it isn't required for your personal usage, there is nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't mean others don't benefit from it. If 99.9% of people can't tell the difference, how are companies like Arri still in business if nobody can tell if something is shot on an iPhone or an Alexa? It's almost as if there's more to it than that It's the same reason you wouldn't hire a wedding photographer to shoot your special day with an iPhone, even though Grandma probably wouldn't notice the difference.

The quality difference between 8bit and 10bit footage is night and day. If you play them back at original quality (and not completely destroyed by the YouTube compression algorithm) it's very easy to see a difference in the colors, DR and gradients. If you have to do any significant editing, it's even more obvious. If you cannot see a difference or aren't taking advantage of this difference, then there is a good argument to be made that you could save a lot of money by buying a cheaper drone. Or if all you want to do (I don't mean you personally) is share unedited 8bit videos on YouTube with your family or something, there is no need for something like a M3. There is nothing wrong with that, but I do think it's wrong to project your personal needs onto every other user by saying that "nobody needs ProRes" or whatever. ProRes is an extremely popular codec.

Technology is so good these days you’d need to see the data profile of the video to know what your looking at. No one can tell the difference between 8 and 10 or 12 bit, anyone who says they can I say put your money where your mouth is. So this whole Cine thing is more of a scam and to please idiot customers then anything else. No customer can tell the difference till they see the file size af a 60 second clip. I have no doubt lots of guys will disagree with me, but if I had a way to keep them honest I’d bet them $500 any day of the week they can’t tell the difference.

I very much disagree with this - the differences are easily noticeable between the different bit depths. If you can't tell the difference, or don't edit your footage, you can save a lot of money - and that isn't a bad thing. The difference is very much like shooting JPEG vs RAW on a still image. Even if the end use for the video is something that will not highlight the differences (i.e. a thumbnail sized video or a client or something), maybe you needed to process that video in such a way that would not have been possible with 8bit footage. Just like JPEG still images, there are times where 8bit video footage is acceptable - but it's important to realize that does not making shooting 10bit video or RAW still images pointless.

The reason ProRes is so well liked is because it's extremely easy to edit and it can be reused non-destructively - I find that most people who think ProRes is useless haven't bothered to learn about it. Since it's uncompressed, it doesn't have to be decoded before you edit it, and it's not as taxing on your computer. The other reason you would want to use it is for longevity, or if the video is going to be used for multiple projects because you do not lose quality when you make repetitive changes to it (just like working from a RAW file instead of a JPEG). H264/H265 on the other hand will degrade every time you make changes to it, just like a JPEG does every time you re-save it. The only downside to ProRes really is the huge file sizes, but storage is dirt cheap these days. Some agencies also require their shooters to deliver footage in ProRes.

Send me two original files, one 8bit one 10bit, and I will happily take your $500 without looking at the metadata. There are simply things you can't do with 8bit footage and this is very obvious the instant you get it into an editor or look at a scene that highlights how bad 8bit gradients are.

 

[CanadaDrone]

There is no difference between a 4-8 k screen, except bragging rights.

This is objectively untrue, and does not take into consideration image size or viewing distance - both of which make it much easier to see differences between 4K and 8K. 8K is already a big deal in the projector world, because it's one application where the difference is particularly noticeable. People said the same thing about 1080P and also about 4K.

Whether or not you will benefit from an 8K display entirely depends on your usage case, just like anything else.

 

[canadian drone videos]

This is objectively untrue, and does not take into consideration image size or viewing distance - both of which make it much easier to see differences between 4K and 8K. 8K is already a big deal in the projector world, because it's one application where the difference is particularly noticeable. People said the same thing about 1080P and also about 4K.

Whether or not you will benefit from an 8K display entirely depends on your usage case, just like anything else.

It’s fair to say we don’t agree on much lol.

I don’t take others peoples feelings into consideration when I call a product junk, it is what it is. If people are too sensitive that isn’t going to get me to go Vegan. I sit a typical distance away for a typical sized TV, so, I’m not going to see the difference between 1080 or 4k, most people won’t... unless they sit close to a 110” TV lol. No typical Hollywood movie maker would ever consider using a M3, 4/3rds sensor for big screen. They want big full frame sensors so when the film footage is enlarged onto a 40 foot screen it holds its resolution. The bigger the sensor the better it holds its res when you blow it up on a screen that big.

Seems we agree that building your own combo is the most economic. I suspect that will be the case for a lot of people.



This is highly subjective - I personally much prefer the RC Pro style remote, as do many others. I have also been extremely happy with the outgoing Smart Controller over the last several years. Nice that there are options for everyone. I don't really see the point in calling something "junk" just because it doesn't work for you personally - it's great that you love your tablet mount, but suggesting that anyone who doesn't share your opinion has opted to use pointless junk seems unnecessary.



I have to disagree with you here. A 4/3 sensor is more than capable of producing "movie" quality footage. There are feature length films shot on 4/3 sensors (cameras like the Panasonic GH4/5 are incredibly popular in the production world), Netflix purchases videos that have been shot on even less, and high profile movies like The Martian have used GoPros (tiny 1/2.3" sensor) for some footage. If it's good enough for Ridley Scott, I think it's fair to say that there is a lot more to it than just looking at sensor size - it's about using the right tool for the job. The idea that 10bit or ProRes or whatever else is only useful if you are using Hollywood-grade video equipment or making a movie for theaters is nonsense. If it isn't required for your personal usage, there is nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't mean others don't benefit from it. If 99.9% of people can't tell the difference, how are companies like Arri still in business if nobody can tell if something is shot on an iPhone or an Alexa? It's almost as if there's more to it than that It's the same reason you wouldn't hire a wedding photographer to shoot your special day with an iPhone, even though Grandma probably wouldn't notice the difference.

The quality difference between 8bit and 10bit footage is night and day. If you play them back at original quality (and not completely destroyed by the YouTube compression algorithm) it's very easy to see a difference in the colors, DR and gradients. If you have to do any significant editing, it's even more obvious. If you cannot see a difference or aren't taking advantage of this difference, then there is a good argument to be made that you could save a lot of money by buying a cheaper drone. Or if all you want to do (I don't mean you personally) is share unedited 8bit videos on YouTube with your family or something, there is no need for something like a M3. There is nothing wrong with that, but I do think it's wrong to project your personal needs onto every other user by saying that "nobody needs ProRes" or whatever. ProRes is an extremely popular codec.



I very much disagree with this - the differences are easily noticeable between the different bit depths. If you can't tell the difference, or don't edit your footage, you can save a lot of money - and that isn't a bad thing. The difference is very much like shooting JPEG vs RAW on a still image. Even if the end use for the video is something that will not highlight the differences (i.e. a thumbnail sized video or a client or something), maybe you needed to process that video in such a way that would not have been possible with 8bit footage. Just like JPEG still images, there are times where 8bit video footage is acceptable - but it's important to realize that does not making shooting 10bit video or RAW still images pointless.

The reason ProRes is so well liked is because it's extremely easy to edit and it can be reused non-destructively - I find that most people who think ProRes is useless haven't bothered to learn about it. Since it's uncompressed, it doesn't have to be decoded before you edit it, and it's not as taxing on your computer. The other reason you would want to use it is for longevity, or if the video is going to be used for multiple projects because you do not lose quality when you make repetitive changes to it (just like working from a RAW file instead of a JPEG). H264/H265 on the other hand will degrade every time you make changes to it, just like a JPEG does every time you re-save it. The only downside to ProRes really is the huge file sizes, but storage is dirt cheap these days. Some agencies also require their shooters to deliver footage in ProRes.

Send me two original files, one 8bit one 10bit, and I will happily take your $500 without looking at the metadata. There are simply things you can't do with 8bit footage and this is very obvious the instant you get it into an editor or look at a scene that highlights how bad 8bit gradients are.

Send me a message, I travel across Canada on a regular basis for work. Maybe you can meet me at a Tim’s, bring $1500 with you, I’ll show you 3 pieces of video $500 a shot. Challenge is you tell me the res and what codec I used, nothing will be edited. In fact, to keep it super honest I’ll shoot video of you in real time, then show it to you on the Retina display 15” laptop, I have a M3 Lut for Dlog in FCPX. There is no way you or anyone else will know the difference. At the very least we can meet up and do some flying eh.

I find it hard to believe anyone would know the difference for sure between 1080, 5k 264 265 8-10 bit Dlog or ProRes at a typical viewing distance relative to screen size. What difference does it make if your using 10 million or 20 million colours for that matter. I could sneak a piece of P4P footage in there and you wouldn’t know. Researchers say the human eye can only distinguish around 1 million shades of colour. 8 bit puts out about 16.7 million colours, 10 bit is 1.07 billion. So even if I use 8 bit I’m using 15.7 million colours that don’t need to be there.

The technology is well beyond what human biology can take advantage of. If you can see the difference between 8-10 bit then that’s... I really only need what, 1 bit?

At this point it becomes more about marketing and how to fool us into buying something that’s pointless.

How is DJI going to get us to buy an M4? Make it 12 bit lol. Here you go, buy this drone because it produces 10 billion colours your eye will never see lol.

They need to bring new technology to the market, like a fluid silicone sensor? It wouldn’t have pixels, or resolution. They need to think outside the box to upgrade the tech we already have. We don’t need more bits or megapixels or lines of resolution, the human eye can only do so much. A drone is a flying camera, editing 8k footage down to 1080 becomes a task that becomes too great. The more magnification you add to the camera on a drone by either increasing res to crop it latter or add optical zoom the more precise the physical flying of the drone must get. The smaller the drone the more the workload, wind effects smaller drones more.

The bulk of this debate, as I understand it, is to do with technology. How to get us to buy the M4? We’re at the point that cropping drone footage is close to maxing out... unless your just flying straight and not turning. I’m not a fool, I’m not going to by the M4 to get more bits, more res, or even optical zoom. Only one upgrade would get me to drop another $3k on a M4, interchangeable Prime lenses. Not gonna see that ever on a drone with the Mavic airframe.

DJI already knows all this, when they designed the M3 they considered how to get you to buy the next Mavic? Obviously they could have ditched that explore camera and gave us optical zoom, but in a way they gave us big zoom anyways when they gave us 5k on a 4/3rds sensor... and had they not have done that no one would have bought the drone. DJI is holding back from introducing all the technology we have right now in one drone, smart of them but bad for us.

 

[ianwood]

It’s a myth that anyone needs pro res, not even the pros, this sensor is not big enough to put its video in a movie theatre. Any customer that demands pro res from a 4/3rd sensor is just being a ( Mod Removed Language) There’s no difference, you want to talk colour grading, let’s be realistic I say, I could shoot 8 bit regular 265 or Dlog 10 bit, or Pro Res, put all three side by side and 99.9% of people wouldn’t know which is which?

No. The colorists will see it instantly. I shoot a lot of footage for film and TV productions. Sensor size alone is not something they spend a lot of time on unless you're talking to the DP. The DP will always want their camera (Alexa or RED) and their lenses. If you're dealing with post-production, they just want to know the original footage has lots of detail and the overall image quality holds up enough to cut with their content. That means ProRes or RAW, M43 or better.

H.264/H.265 is just not something anyone on the production will want to deal with even if they're buying stock footage. They'll take it if they have no choice but the colorists will whine about banding and lack of detail. Yet, I've sold GoPro footage to major motion pictures. It all depends.

As for DJI DLOG, it is a mixed bag. I've seen it gain a stop in the highlights but destroy shadow detail. Most times I've used it, it doesn't seem to deliver the extra dynamic range. It also varies by drone and FW.

throw all 8 ND filters in the trash, zero use for any filters that are not polarized, that’s my preference.

The included NDs are actually pretty decent. No cast that I can tell so far. Not sure how you use a polarizer on a drone for video unless that is a specific look you're seeking. I couldn't sell that footage unless it was a top down.

Deadliest Catch look very good on TV I think

Reality shows will shoot on anything and take footage from anything. Such is the nature of their genre. Narrative TV and film are inherently different. They'll buy stock from an Inspire 2 with either X5S or X7 shot in RAW or ProRes but when I get on set with them, it's almost always their camera (Alexa or RED) with their lenses (Zeiss, Cooke, Angineaux, etc.). The M3 Cine will also shoot stock I sell for narrative film and TV.

And sometimes a production shoots social media content on an Alexa. It doesn't always make sense.

I find it hard to believe anyone would know the difference for sure between 1080, 5k 264 265 8-10 bit Dlog or ProRes at a typical viewing distance relative to screen size. What difference does it make if your using 10 million or 20 million colours for that matter.

You're right. Most people will not consciously recognize these differences. But people do subconsciously feel the difference. And that is what the DP and director are after. It takes a lot to make something feel the way it does. You don't recognize it until it isn't there. If narrative TV was shot like Deadliest Catch, you would notice. And you most likely would not like it.

But then there are those who watch movies with the motion filter on their TV turned on. It is all subjective.

 

[SmilingOgre]

Good points, but oak is harder to sand lol.

Yes there are definitely differences from one camera to the next, I meant the various types of codex the M3 can shoot. They are all excellent the difference is trivial, like bragging rights. Shows like Deadliest Catch look very good on TV I think, with today’s technology the only thing we need to worry about is focus and exposure and of course composure.

There is no difference between a 4-8 k screen, except bragging rights. No difference between 4-5 G wifi either. At this point they will need to think outside the box to bring new technology to the table. This is why it’s my opinion the M3 has maxed out what we’re going to get from today’s technology in a folding drone this size.

Appreciate that and like your sense of humor. Yes, Oak is a PITA to sand. And yes, I do believe the differences between the M2P camera and M3 camera and codecs used, etc. are relatively trivial. Especially in consideration of the typical footage gathered by a drone. It isn't a portrait view of a face. I mix a lot of M2P footage into projects as establishing and time passing footage. It fits in very nicely. I also agree per 4-8k. Nice for bragging rights and fairly radical punch ins but if something is filmed well radical punch ins are not necessary. Because it's hobby and not production I can challenge myself with getting the shot out of the camera. No budget, no timeline. I've even taken 1080 at 120fps, played back at 24fps and used either resolves superscale or Topez video enhance to create some very convincing 4k. A commercial on TV reminded me of another comment you made. Now Iphone is claiming a cine mode. Come on already. Yes to deadliest catch as well. The content works very well with the cameras used. Absolutely no need to subject an ARRI or RED to that environment and the unaltered look of the cameras used create a more convincing ambiance imho. Cinema has a heavy helping of surrealism added. It's a different form of story telling with a lot of visual emotion conveyed via ambiance.

 

[canadian drone videos]

No. The colorists will see it instantly. I shoot a lot of footage for film and TV productions. Sensor size alone is not something they spend a lot of time on unless you're talking to the DP. The DP will always want their camera (Alexa or RED) and their lenses. If you're dealing with post-production, they just want to know the original footage has lots of detail and the overall image quality holds up enough to cut with their content. That means ProRes or RAW, M43 or better.

H.264/H.265 is just not something anyone on the production will want to deal with even if they're buying stock footage. They'll take it if they have no choice but the colorists will whine about banding and lack of detail. Yet, I've sold GoPro footage to major motion pictures. It all depends.

As for DJI DLOG, it is a mixed bag. I've seen it gain a stop in the highlights but destroy shadow detail. Most times I've used it, it doesn't seem to deliver the extra dynamic range. It also varies by drone and FW.


The included NDs are actually pretty decent. No cast that I can tell so far. Not sure how you use a polarizer on a drone for video unless that is a specific look you're seeking. I couldn't sell that footage unless it was a top down.


Reality shows will shoot on anything and take footage from anything. Such is the nature of their genre. Narrative TV and film are inherently different. They'll buy stock from an Inspire 2 with either X5S or X7 shot in RAW or ProRes but when I get on set with them, it's almost always their camera (Alexa or RED) with their lenses (Zeiss, Cooke, Angineaux, etc.). The M3 Cine will also shoot stock I sell for narrative film and TV.

And sometimes a production shoots social media content on an Alexa. It doesn't always make sense.


You're right. Most people will not consciously recognize these differences. But people do subconsciously feel the difference. And that is what the DP and director are after. It takes a lot to make something feel the way it does. You don't recognize it until it isn't there. If narrative TV was shot like Deadliest Catch, you would notice. And you most likely would not like it.

But then there are those who watch movies with the motion filter on their TV turned on. It is all subjective.

Oh of course they will want high end video the best they can get. My points are all based on unedited video straight out of the camera and specific to the M3. I don’t notice any difference in any of it till I start editing, and the only difference I notice is how how much more I can crop 5k then the rest of it. You could shoot 264 265 or Apple pro res from the M3 then show me each clip separately and 9 times out of 10 I couldn’t tell you which is which. If the M3 could shoot raw or HDR I’d know instantly especially during a sunset or cloudy day.

As I said the human eye can only see about a million colours, 8 bit puts out 16.7 million 10 puts out over a billion. So I don’t see a human can tell the difference between 8-10 in unedited footage? It makes no sense to me, so long as the ability of the camera can match what my eye is capable of distinguishing how is that not good enough? Why would an editor require a billion colours if I can only see about a million? Perhaps you have the answer and you can tell us?

At what point are we forgetting reality and talking about bragging rights? A billion colours, so they need 999 million colours I can’t see to subconsciously give me a better viewing experience, that could be true but sounds illogical.

 

[ianwood]

My points are all based on unedited video straight out of the camera and specific to the M3.

If you only want unedited footage straight out of the camera and have no need for grade and color, then yes, the Cine version would not make much if any difference. If you do intend to grade and color footage to a degree of quality consistent with film and TV, the Cine version will provide a substantive difference.

Why would an editor require a billion colours if I can only see about a million? Perhaps you have the answer and you can tell us?

Capturing, editing, and otherwise preserving content in the highest resolution, highest bit-depth and highest bit-rate assures the maximum amount of information is carried forward through all stages and into the final conversion process. Put a different way, converting from a high quality source to a lower one will yield better results than converting from one that is already lower.

 

[canadian drone videos]

Appreciate that and like your sense of humor. Yes, Oak is a PITA to sand. And yes, I do believe the differences between the M2P camera and M3 camera and codecs used, etc. are relatively trivial. Especially in consideration of the typical footage gathered by a drone. It isn't a portrait view of a face. I mix a lot of M2P footage into projects as establishing and time passing footage. It fits in very nicely. I also agree per 4-8k. Nice for bragging rights and fairly radical punch ins but if something is filmed well radical punch ins are not necessary. Because it's hobby and not production I can challenge myself with getting the shot out of the camera. No budget, no timeline. I've even taken 1080 at 120fps, played back at 24fps and used either resolves superscale or Topez video enhance to create some very convincing 4k. A commercial on TV reminded me of another comment you made. Now Iphone is claiming a cine mode. Come on already. Yes to deadliest catch as well. The content works very well with the cameras used. Absolutely no need to subject an ARRI or RED to that environment and the unaltered look of the cameras used create a more convincing ambiance imho. Cinema has a heavy helping of surrealism added. It's a different form of story telling with a lot of visual emotion conveyed via ambiance.

Finally, I found a fellow realist not afraid to be honest. Ahh, rum and eggnog, I better colour grade it with my special spoon.

I’m not calling anyone out, or trying to be disrespectful, but I find it hard to believe there are special humans on earth that can distinguish the difference between video that has 16.7 million colours, or 1.07 billion colours. I guess it’s possible but I’d have to witness it to believe it. The human eye isn’t capable of doing such a thing that’s not my opinion it’s a biological fact.

TV is TV, if you need 8k or even 4k it’s only because your sitting way too close. I’ve got a Sony 40” 1080, I can’t see lines of res till I get really close to it, way to close to actually watch it. My MacBook Pro is right in my face, it doesn’t even have 4k, it has Retina display. I mean 4k content is still in its infancy, yes it’s around but not a lot of it, there’s a reason for that. Competition is the main driver behind 4k TV and content. The actual need for it is low. Competition is why we have 5g wifi, do we really need it?

The manufactures and movie makers are trying to outdo each other, bragging rights. I have an iPhone going on 3 years old, the iPhone 13 won’t do much my 8s won’t do. In 5 years when we all have 8k TV what then? Our current technology has maxed out, 1080 is fine and my 8s works great lol. If we’re still having this “lines of resolution” debate in 5 years then the manufacturer is truly screwed. I mean 70 billion colours in 12 bit video lol, cool, the guy editing the colour can only distinguish about 1 million colours just like me and you. The colourist will instantly know the difference between 8-10 bit video, how is that possible? Got to have 12 bit so he can choose between 70 billion colours? Really? This might be true but I’d need to witness it to believe it and I’d want the ability to wage a bet on it.

 

[canadian drone videos]

Just wondering if any sample footage exists from the 2 versions of the Mavic 3 for comparison and general evaluation purposes?

Basically, I’d like to side by side them in a few different shooting conditions to see how they compare.

Most interested in:
- High speed flight (does compression cause artifices with big changes between frames).
- High iso (low light) conditions.
- Poorly exposed images (over/under) and recovery.
- Large creative grade (big colour shifts)
- d-log vs hasselblad color profiles.
- any others of interest.

If this doesn’t exist yet, maybe someone could make it? Here in Australia… that’s a question that makes over $3000 difference…

Also… even if I would personally be fine with h.265 footage, can anyone suggest some reasons I might want ProRes anyway? Eg: clients will prefer it, I can charge more, it will save me from many exposure errors etc.

We have a member in our group who writes for F-Stoppers. In this F-Stoppers article it says, the human eye can not distinguish the difference between 8-10 bit video. Only the computer can.

Can You See the Difference Between 10-Bit and 8-Bit Images and Video Footage?

Resolution, bit depth, compression, bit rate. These are just few of the countless parameters our cameras and files have. Let's talk about bit depth here. There's a lot of good talk about 10 bit and a lot of bad talk about 8 bit. The computer can tell the difference, but can you? What Is Bit...

fstoppers.com

 

[SmilingOgre]

We have a member in our group who writes for F-Stoppers. In this F-Stoppers article it says, the human eye can not distinguish the difference between 8-10 bit video. Only the computer can.

Can You See the Difference Between 10-Bit and 8-Bit Images and Video Footage?

Resolution, bit depth, compression, bit rate. These are just few of the countless parameters our cameras and files have. Let's talk about bit depth here. There's a lot of good talk about 10 bit and a lot of bad talk about 8 bit. The computer can tell the difference, but can you? What Is Bit...

fstoppers.com

Been researching prores vs h.264/h.265 for a bit and the most believable article I found sighted computer overhead. It categorized prores as an editing codec and H.xxx as delivery codecs. It went on to say that production houses prefer the prores because it is easier on their computers for editing. Not so much a function of quality of final produced video.

 

[canadian drone videos]

Been researching prores vs h.264/h.265 for a bit and the most believable article I found sighted computer overhead. It categorized prores as an editing codec and H.xxx as delivery codecs. It went on to say that production houses prefer the prores because it is easier on their computers for editing. Not so much a function of quality of final produced video.

Ya that’s what I’ve been hearing. My MacBook converts 265 to pro res 422 in FCPX for editing. It converts it pretty fast. I don’t think there is any noticeable difference with any of them, some guys here say there is, my opinion is there isn’t. If you have no one forcing you to get the Cine I’d say don’t waist your money. The video the 3 puts out is very good, wether you shoot 264 265 or what ever. Only the computer can tell the difference.