HOA vs FAA ?

[GFields]

Easy there bud... I already said I've been wrong before but I'm on the mindset PROVE IT TO ME! Show me the area where an individual HOA established flight restrictions. For the record.... lots of areas are UNDER flight restrictions but that doesn't mean the HOA established it.

Show me the area and let's research it. I'm not above being proven wrong.. it happens quite often but I do want to see the evidence before I admit I messed up. Easy Peasy

I

Easy there bud... I already said I've been wrong before but I'm on the mindset PROVE IT TO ME! Show me the area where an individual HOA established flight restrictions. For the record.... lots of areas are UNDER flight restrictions but that doesn't mean the HOA established it.

Show me the area and let's research it. I'm not above being proven wrong.. it happens quite often but I do want to see the evidence before I admit I messed up. Easy Peasy

What I said was, ' I have attempted to do roof inspections in "communities" where they have succeeded in getting the FAA to place a no-fly zone." I didn't say an HOA had anything to do with it. Yes, I went on to say that the HOA "might" succeed in doing the same thing. In the meantime, I would honor the HOA requests.

As far as "proving it to you" respectfully, this has been over a year ago and all I can remember other than the no-fly zone and not being able to do the job was that it was a wealthy community for older folks. I'll try to look it up in my job files.

*Edited to update*

I found the job in my files. However, I am unable to provide the address per contract. After reading my notes on the job, I recorded the following, (me to the client), "I use Airmap and Kittyhawk to get authorizations. The FAA UAS Data on a Map system indicates UAS automatically approved to 300' AGL. This NO FLY Zone doesn't show up on the FAA UAS Data Map". However, the DJI application indicates that it is a no-fly zone and an unlock is unavailable."

This is what prompted me to call the FAA for confirmation. This was a NFZ not TFZ. The FAA agent did not (or would not) elaborate more. I asked my client if they wanted me to apply for a wavier and they chose to send a "boots on the ground" agent instead.

Before every job, I look at the FAA UAS Data on a Map to see if there is a need for a waiver or LAANC authorization.

Now, this is all I can tell you. Some things are discovered only after getting to the site.

PS: I need to make one correction. I said communities, this has happened to me in ONE community.

And as I stated to the OP of this thread, I would still honor the HOA's rules and regulations.

 

[MavicVA]

I

What I said was, ' I have attempted to do roof inspections in "communities" where they have succeeded in getting the FAA to place a no-fly zone." I didn't say an HOA had anything to do with it. Yes, I went on to say that the HOA "might" succeed in doing the same thing. In the meantime, I would honor the HOA requests.

As far as "proving it to you" respectfully, this has been over a year ago and all I can remember other than the no-fly zone and not being able to do the job was that it was a wealthy community for older folks. I'll try to look it up in my job files.

Sometimes you have to get the ladder off the truck and strap on the cougar paws. Old school style

 

[GFields]

Sometimes you have to get the ladder off the truck and strap on the cougar paws. Old school style

Well, I have no problem doing that and have done so many times. However, the insurance company I was doing this for, does not allow me to get on the roof. They have other agents for "boots on the ground" work.

 

[MavicVA]

Well, I have no problem doing that and have done so many times. However, the insurance company I was doing this for, does not allow me to get on the roof. They have other agents for "boots on the ground" work.

I’ve been doing it for over 20 years but the mountain goat roof monkey stuff is a young man’s game. I’m about done with that nonsense.

 

[sar104]

Sorry, but you are wrong!

DJI Go 4 app said it was s No-FLY zone. DJI no-fly unlock was not available either. When I returned home, I called the FAA and confirmed.

I know that many think they have all the answers but I also know what I know from being in the field. I don't post to create arguments, I post what I have learned from experience. And as I said, this community had a no-fly zone.

Then it will be on the FAA Facilities map.

ArcGIS Web Application

faa.maps.arcgis.com

Perhaps you can find it there and point it out. But note that the DJI Geo system is almost entirely unconnected to any FAA restrictions, and so if you are using that to argue that the FAA made a "no-fly zone" then you have misunderstood how this all works.

 

[GFields]

Then it will be on the FAA Facilities map.

ArcGIS Web Application

faa.maps.arcgis.com

Perhaps you can find it there and point it out. But note that the DJI Geo system is almost entirely unconnected to any FAA restrictions, and so if you are using that to argue that the FAA made a "no-fly zone" then you have misunderstood how this all works.

Read my update. Especially the part that I spoke with an FAA agent to confirm. He would not elaborate why it wasn't on the FAA UAS Data Map

 

[sar104]

Read my update. Especially the part that I spoke with an FAA agent to confirm. He would not elaborate why it wasn't on the FAA UAS Data Map

Sorry - in that case you have been misled. I've no idea who you spoke to at the FAA but if it is not on the Facilities Map and is not a published TFR then it does not exist. And obviously it would be particularly pointless to have a Federally-mandated no-fly zone that existed only in the proprietary control software of a single UAV manufacturer, and not in any official database.

 

[BigAl07]

Read my update. Especially the part that I spoke with an FAA agent to confirm. He would not elaborate why it wasn't on the FAA UAS Data Map

We are only wanting to look it up on the FAA's TFR database. All of them that are active are listed there for their life cycle.

 

[GFields]

We are only wanting to look it up on the FAA's TFR database. All of them that are active are listed there for their life cycle.

@sar104 @BigAl07

I hold both of you in high regard and in 99% of the time agree with you both on most topics. However, both of you leave me perplexed on this one.

What both of you are saying:

1. The DJI Go 4 app was wrong?
2. The FAA agent I spoke with was wrong?
3. I don't know what I experienced?

Perhaps one day both of you will have a similar experience. Until then, I am finished with this conversation. Have a good day.

 

[BigAl07]

@sar104 @BigAl07

I hold both of you in high regard and in 99% of the time agree with you both on most topics. However, both of you leave me perplexed on this one.

What both of you are saying:

1. The DJI Go 4 app was wrong?
2. The FAA agent I spoke with was wrong?
3. I don't know what I experienced?

Perhaps one day both of you will have a similar experience. Until then, I am finished with this conversation. Have a good day.

All I’m saying is that a HOA can’t get a restriction in place. It’s highly possible a HOA is within a TFR but it’s not “theirs”.

 

[kwilliams6045]

We are only wanting to look it up on the FAA's TFR database. All of them that are active are listed there for their life cycle.

...and they are constantly updated!

 

[sar104]

@sar104 @BigAl07

I hold both of you in high regard and in 99% of the time agree with you both on most topics. However, both of you leave me perplexed on this one.

What both of you are saying:

1. The DJI Go 4 app was wrong?
2. The FAA agent I spoke with was wrong?
3. I don't know what I experienced?

Perhaps one day both of you will have a similar experience. Until then, I am finished with this conversation. Have a good day.

Here's may take on it. I have no idea what the DJI zone in question is, but those are implemented by DJI for all kinds of reason, including in error. The FAA, on the other hand, has very limited criteria to impose sUAS restricted zones, and those are clearly detailed on their website and displayed on their facilities system that I linked to earlier. TFRs are more common - I put those in place for search and rescue operations for example, and more generally, anyone can request one if they have a valid reason. But it doesn't sound like you are talking about a TFR. As for the FAA agent that you spoke to, I'm afraid that there have been numerous reports on this forum of discussions with "FAA agents" in which blatantly incorrect information was given. I've been given incorrect information on sUAS issues by the local FSDO - this area is sufficiently new to some of them that they are not that well versed in the rules and procedures.

I'm puzzled why you would accept obviously inconsistent verbal information that is unsubstantiated by any officially documented source that we are required, by the FAA itself, to rely on for definitive answers.

 

[DanMan32]

Can't you provide nearby coordinates? A 1 mile area would do. Just something close enough where we might see the restriction.

My guess is that the NFR is for a reason that the HOA community happens to be under. My house for example is under a zero ceiling approach path of a nearby airport.

 

[Peter.smith]

Hello All,
I recently received a letter from the HOA stating that they are implementing a restriction on the use of drones in the community. I'm in the USA. Southern California. Fly a MP. Not a Part 107 .

"No member, tenant, resident,guest, or invitee may operate or authorize the operation of a drone on or in the community,or otherwise ENTER THE AIRSPACE above any portion of the community with a drone. Prohibited use of drones includes,but is not limited to the recreational/hobby use of a drone in the common area green belts,private streets,and recreational areas."
"Members or residents launching or flying such drones may be subject to fine and required to reimburse the HOA and and/or other residents whose properties are damaged by such drones,or whose privacy is invaded by such devices."

"As an exception to the above prohibition of drones in the community, members who are offering their residence for sale or lease may submit a written request to the HOA requesting permission to allow their real estate agent to use a drone to photograph or record their residence in order to facilitate such sale or lease."

"The members written request must include :
Members address
Real Estate agent's name.
Real Estate agent's license number.
Real Estate agent's proof of liability insurance.
Name and entity contracted to fly the drone.
The drone pilot's remote pilot's license/part 107
The drone pilot's proof of insurance.
The proposed date and time that the drone will be used to photograph and/or record the residence.

The HOA will review the written request, and in its sole discretion, approve, reject, or conditionally approve it. If the request is conditionally approved, the member must abide by any conditions imposed. If rejected, the member may appeal the decision before the HOA Board of Directors."

"To the extent that the requirements of any Federal, State, or local Law or regulation should supersede the HOA restrictions on use of drones, those provisions of the rule not in conflict with those laws or regulations shall remain in effect."

I think the last paragraph is the important point. , Federal law / FAA jurisdiction/airspace.

So...... what's your opinion / advice ?

Thanks , AL

Move as soon as possible. You have HOA Directors with visions of grandeur and control over all that you do. This will get worse as has been shown in virtually ever other case involving HOAs whether it be drones or not.

 

[TrentYoung]

I like the "authorize" part. So you can invite me to your property and then I can simply fly the drone as much as I want. After all, you did not "authorize" the fight, just invited me out to your property. The HOA then cannot even take any action against the property owner as this is not spelled out. Obviously whoever wrote these rules does not have a clue about airspace and US Code and they are simply terrible at writing by-laws.

You are exactly correct. The HOA cannot control what you do within your own property lines. As the HOA does not control the airspace of your community you are able to take off and land within the confines of your property. If... the streets are public, then they have no jurisdiction on the public streets as it is public property with the exception of parking which includes temporary or semi temporary use. I went round and round with my HOA as we have private streets. I asked the HOA to be sure of their "footing" as my next step would be civil suit and harassment. The court's agreed with my argument and I was awarded $5,000 in damages. You are also aware that it does take 66% of the "homeowners" to add or change the CCR's?

 

[Robert Prior]

Here's may take on it. I have no idea what the DJI zone in question is, but those are implemented by DJI for all kinds of reason, including in error.

I've been caught out by DJI No Fly Zones being more rigorous than the regulations require. Small, rarely-used airports that fall under the "use caution" part of Transport Canada regulations are locked as No Fly Zones by DJI. (In the same community as one of them, DJI would have let me fly right beside a hospital with multiple helicopter flights a day.) In Greenland I couldn't fly in August because a circle of rocks was a heliport (which is was, but only in winter for 2-3 flights a week) — perfectly legal to fly there, but couldn't do it.

So, long story short, DJI doesn't have all restricted zones in their database, and has geofenced off areas that would be legal to fly in.

 

[tcope]

You are exactly correct. The HOA cannot control what you do within your own property lines. As the HOA does not control the airspace of your community you are able to take off and land within the confines of your property.

Actually an HOA can tell you what you can do on your own property, as long as the requirement is legal. If the HOA has a rule that you cannot fly a drone from your property, they can enforce that. They just cannot make a rule against use of public airspace. Again, there is a difference between making a rule on a person on the ground and making a rule governing airspace.

 

[sar104]

I've been caught out by DJI No Fly Zones being more rigorous than the regulations require. Small, rarely-used airports that fall under the "use caution" part of Transport Canada regulations are locked as No Fly Zones by DJI. (In the same community as one of them, DJI would have let me fly right beside a hospital with multiple helicopter flights a day.) In Greenland I couldn't fly in August because a circle of rocks was a heliport (which is was, but only in winter for 2-3 flights a week) — perfectly legal to fly there, but couldn't do it.

So, long story short, DJI doesn't have all restricted zones in their database, and has geofenced off areas that would be legal to fly in.

Agreed. Most are self-unlockable zones. The exceptions are mostly DJI restricted zones (red) around airports that exceed the extent of the 0 ft LAANC grid squares, and therefore require a custom unlock. Plus prisons etc., but I don't really count those.

 

[wsteele]

interesting thread. I’ve had good and bad experiences with HOAs but I won’t discuss them here. As I read I see a few things that stand out.

In most states, you need a 2/3 vote of “all homeowners” to change the bylaws Originator has not researched whether this bylaw is even legal.

As stated, they cannot restrict the airspace over the community. Seems It would be very easy for a realtor for example to fly from an adjacent property and ignore all the HOA B.S. legally.

Good discussion on TFRs. But as stated, where’s the formal documentation? DJI while they try to be accurate is not an official authority. Nobody seems to be able to validate this Dallas community used as an example has a no fly restriction by the FAA other than hearsay.

I would love to see facts rather than opinions to answer these questions

 

[Tony Kiburis]

I>m a HOA Board member. In order to introduce a "restriction" like yours it has to be voted upon by all the home owners & pass by a 60% margin.
I suggest rereading your HOA documents & see if a similar rule to "Amend" the rules,
Good Luck,
TonyK