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How low should I allow the battery to go before I stop flying?

Why do you say that AD is not accurate when it comes to batteries? I know from experience that it's been very useful to me to monitor the deviations. These corresponded to several emergency descents that I experienced.
Air Data is extremely accurate but not Reliable and I say that based on the streaming of Air Data on live flights .

This is a good example: This video uses Air Data but not everything was perfect.

This is one of my favorite channels and he shows Air Data being used live .

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I can't find DJI's recommendation in my Air 2S manual. Currently, I stopped flying when the remaining battery level drops to 20% as viewed on the DJI Fly app. Is this a safe time to stop flying or can I go lower?
Percentage is just an average. I look at battery voltage. Not sure about Air2s, but my Mavic PP has the ability to show cell voltage. It reports the voltage of lowest cell on your monitor in real time. When I hit 3.6 volts I land regardless of what (percentage) is reporting. If you look on your battery page you may find the option of showing battery voltage on your monitor, if so I would recommend using that feature as it is much more accurate in showing true battery level.
 
Air Data is extremely accurate but not Reliable and I say that based on the streaming of Air Data on live flights .

This is a good example: This video uses Air Data but not everything was perfect.

This is one of my favorite channels and he shows Air Data being used live .

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OK, that has nothing to do with AirData's ability to show historical battery cell deviations. For all of us, I think it would be a great data point if you uploaded a bunch of your flights to AD and took at look at your battery health.
 
Percentage is just an average. I look at battery voltage. Not sure about Air2s, but my Mavic PP has the ability to show cell voltage. It reports the voltage of lowest cell on your monitor in real time. When I hit 3.6 volts I land regardless of what (percentage) is reporting. If you look on your battery page you may find the option of showing battery voltage on your monitor, if so I would recommend using that feature as it is much more accurate in showing true battery level.
Correct and nice practice... voltage is accurate.
Percentage is what ever is programed into the FW for what voltage range desired. When the M200 v1 series had a unknown issue related to battery, the FW was quickly modified to show a low percentage at a higher voltage to prevent possible cut-off issue they were attempting to resolve. Knowing Pilots reacted to low percentage regardless of voltage it provided a Bandaid while they corrected the problem.
 
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Air Data is extremely accurate but not Reliable...

This is a good example: This video uses Air Data but not everything was perfect.
I'm not following you here ... what do you mean by "accurate but not reliable", maybe you could clarify?

Airdata & other online services that decrypt & show the content in the flight logs doesn't make any percentages or voltages up ... they only show what the log have recorded.

The clip you think is a good example of "accurate but not reliable" is a edit with mixed content coming from a hi res. filmed flight with 3 overlay objects that have been manually synced together ... only one of the overlays comes from Airdata ... & that is the wind estimation in the mid top. Then you have a separate clip showing the RC top left. And all the rest, bottom, right & left is a Dashware produced overlay which fetches the telemetry data from the flight log ...

What you miss is that a readout from a single flight regarding battery performance doesn't say anything about batteries health ... but Airdata have payed subscriptions where they give you battery performance trends out from all the flights you have there, separated to the different batteries you have used for all those flights. It's a huge difference looking at only one log or looking at hundreds of flights & the combined battery performance ... this makes it really easy to see the degradation starting from a new perfect performing battery to when that have been through hundreds of charge cycles.
 
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I am old school and still have my old habits sometimes. I know you are right about the new batteries. Still, airdata does alert you to keep maintenance on your batteries in this way. you need a gold account in order to use that feature. I guess they need to update that.
Old battery chemistry rules shouldn't be applied to lithium based chemistry.
Different chemistries simply like/suffer from different things.

I mean in case of lead acid you want to keep it fully charged as much of the time as possible and just 50% discharge would fast start degrading battery if stored at that charge.
While for lithium based chemistry high charge storage would be torture and 50% charge is about optimum for minimizing speed of processes working to kill the cell.
 
One - Ending my flight at 20% appears to be a safe, and conservative point.
That's far past conservative...
In multiple ways.
For example wouldn't really want to think about flying with below 40% charge in cold weather.

Overall lithium chemistry simply likes middle voltages of cell:
Charging always to full charge puts notable extra wear compared to say 80% charge.
High voltage kick starts one degradation process and increasing temperature gives further speed to chemical processes.
Again low charge/cell voltage kick starts another degradation process.


In fact unless actually needing max endurance, you shouldn't regularly push lithium batteries to full 100% charge.
And full charge/high cell voltage storage is torture for lithium chemistry.
For scale getting that last 10% of charge capacity for full 100% charge like halves the achievable cycle count untill certain capacity loss from wear.
Protections are there simply to prevent critically/fast dangerous charge levels, not to give battery long life time.

Electric cars actually avoid that "normal" 100% charge and have differently calibrated charge scale to slow down loss of capacity over cycles.

And depth of discharge is another factor.
80% discharges wears battery lot faster than doing 50% discharges.

So there's plenty of range in usage of lithium batteries depending on your flying needs and what battery wear speed you accept.
 
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That's far past conservative...
In multiple ways.
For example wouldn't really want to think about flying with below 40% charge in cold weather.

Overall lithium chemistry simply likes middle voltages of cell:
Charging always to full charge puts notable extra wear compared to say 80% charge.
High voltage kick starts one degradation process and increasing temperature gives further speed to chemical processes.
Again low charge/cell voltage kick starts another degradation process.


In fact unless actually needing max endurance, you shouldn't regularly push lithium batteries to full 100% charge.
And full charge/high cell voltage storage is torture for lithium chemistry.
For scale getting that last 10% of charge capacity for full 100% charge like halves the achievable cycle count untill certain capacity loss from wear.
Protections are there simply to prevent critically/fast dangerous charge levels, not to give battery long life time.

Electric cars actually avoid that "normal" 100% charge and have differently calibrated charge scale to slow down loss of capacity over cycles.

And depth of discharge is another factor.
80% discharges wears battery lot faster than doing 50% discharges.

So there's plenty of range in usage of lithium batteries depending on your flying needs and what battery wear speed you accept.
Agreed & your comments on LiPo Chemistry is correct... Different from other battery chemistry, Middle voltage optimal operation voltage, ambient temperature has an direct impact on LiPo discharge & storage (like many other battery chemistry), Regular application of High C (amperage) charge & discharge increases rate of LiPo Gel decay.

Comparison to electric car design is a bit skewed but understand your comparison in behavior characteristics of battery chemistry. Although battery volume / capacity, chemistry and charging is very different. Car’s… specifically Telsa regarding their mega charging is not recommended for normal charging… Telsa states it’s more for traveling or specific needs and is reconized to accelerate the wear & decay of battery cell. That goes along with High Amperage / High Voltage charging increases decay of chemicals. The capacity shares similarity in max capacity stored has an impact… although not as impacting as small RC LiPo due to chemistry differences, designs not nearly as constrained to size & weight, and programming by design in cars that indicates 100% much lower than true capacity.

That all recognized, the majority of Tesla Owners charge at mega chargers vs home 110/240v low Amp chargers. Most charge to full capacity if time allows… more often than partial to reduce the number of times needing to sit at a charging station; the gas station mentality to ”Fill Up” is maintained.

Regarding the RC LiPo pack, specifically the DJI smart IC LiPo Pak… percentage is not an accurate measure of capacity or voltages that effect Chemistry, the FW matrix can display any percentage to voltage desired. Although it is accurate, the longer duration discharges impacts LiPo Gel… 80% discharge creates more chemical activity than 50 or 30% discharge… simple chemistry dynamics.

Although the design of the Pak: Size limitations, Capacity, Voltage / Cells and Chemistry composition was “designed“ to provide full discharge within the FW’s percentage scale (again not a direct corleation to max, avg, minimal voltages). The chemical design including gel capacity was provided to meet desired flight times with a calculated Life Span of Battery.

Using the battery significantly under the designed specifications can increase length of life. Similar to any power unit used below the minimal side of the intended maximum of design will increase length of life. A gas motor driven without hard acceleration, prevention to generate high torque, prevent RPM’s from going into upper RPM curve, etc can increase the life of the power unit. BUT won’t achieve the designed performance that may have been intended in purchase.

The Practice of battery discharge and flight time is wide spread and debated with many opposing views. Although that doesn’t mean one is bad practice and other good practice. It does indicate one end of practice doesn’t utilize the battery design limits as much as other extreme end of practice. The lighter use practice may increase the battery life span.

Battery Life span, several variables: A LiPo Battery’s Gel decays without any external variables… LiPo’s will decay sitting in box on shelf over extended time period… the Gel Chemistry has an active lifespan.
A Battery‘s LiPo Gel decay does have a correlation to battery cycles & duration (depth) of discharge within the cycle. Although NOT as impactful as POOR Battery Treatment: storage, temps, charge practice and flight operations. After battery discharge, recharging hot gel greatly impacts the chemistry, storing in areas of high heat: direct sunlight, trunk of car, etc will impact gel chemistry, loose storage allowing batteries to bounce about in container, extended storing at lower single digit percentage (near minimal voltage). The “Treatment Practice” can impact overall life span greater than “Duration of discharge”. A new battery can be quickly decayed below functional operation without using the battery by exposing to heat & sunlight heat.

Regarding the practice of discharge: If a Hobbyist, times can be very short, any practice can be adopted. If flying a Construction Grid or Survey, objective is longer duration of discharge, flying profession set cinematography productions, cold weather operations, Industry Inspections often require regular mission near maximum duration, or flying SAR missions, the need for maximum discharge is often applied with rapid recharge turn-around of multiple Battery sets.

Although contrary to expressed minimal light usage; Heavily stressed battery operations, the Battery will endure close to the life span & number charge cycles of a battery practice of minimal flight time & minimal discharge. The design of the battery provides much more duration using a battery 80% Charged and ended at 40% charge, although that provides an unsatisfactory short flight time for several types of Professional Missions.

I’ve monitored my M600Pro Platform‘s TB48 batteries (6 per flight) carry heavy payloads, land below 14% consistently, cold, heat & humidity and fully charged to maximum level multiple times a day endure years of service without loosing time on flights. Batteries are decaying per the properties of LiPo Gel within design... that an acceptable known outcome.
 
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Regarding the practice of discharge: If a Hobbyist, times can be very short, any practice can be adopted. If flying a Construction Grid or Survey, objective is longer duration of discharge, flying profession set cinematography productions, cold weather operations, Industry Inspections often require regular mission near maximum duration, or flying SAR missions, the need for maximum discharge is often applied with rapid recharge turn-around of multiple Battery sets.
That required operating specifications is factor in everything.
Starting from life span/cycles defined by battery's manufacturer.
Specified life span/cycles is calculated for certain amount of stress/wear from what's defined as "normal" usage.

Here's thorough (=long) article of effect of different usage variables to lithium battery's life span/cycles.
 
That required operating specifications is factor in everything.
Starting from life span/cycles defined by battery's manufacturer.
Specified life span/cycles is calculated for certain amount of stress/wear from what's defined as "normal" usage.

Here's thorough (=long) article of effect of different usage variables to lithium battery's life span/cycles.
Good article… it’s essentially stating similar to above comments. The article is more focused on Cell Phones, and based on LiPo charging from Max to Min Voltage. It’s not argued, Limiting charging a phone below it‘s Max Voltage/Capacity prolongs the battery... But also shortens the capacity that would effect the avg User able to use phone through the day. It’s well recognized charging lower and using for shorter periods avoiding min voltage helps reduce LiPo decay, but isn’t within practical use of phone. Phones are designed for “non-optimal battery chemistry“ use behavior, designed for User behavior that expects 1 charge per day and enduring a full day… if less, the phone receives lower satisfaction reviews.

Reality, most Users expect their phone to endure a full day… not willing to charge 3-5 short charges per day. The data is based on DoD to full LiPo minimal voltage, a DJI Battery does not go to LiPo Minimal voltage at Displayed 0%, it’s well above minimal voltage at Displayed 0%. That alters the curves more to a lessor discharge to start, it’s not in the 100% discharge curves.

The studies also indicate, no matter how the battery is charged & discharged, by ”design” it will deliver 100% capacity minimally the 1st year, normally longer. There after would be a slight decrease, but even then the studies further down show cycles of fully charged batteries are all above 2000 cycles before significant decay & capacity loss.… some going beyound 10,000 cycles retaining 60-70% capacity… that equates to an old Phone! If you apply that to common use of a cellular phone, most notice a decrease of capacity after 2.5 yrs… which falls into market “design” lifespan to motivate a new phone purchase.

Also lacking in study, present in other LiPo chemistry studies are other factors & decay… primarily, showing Sunlight Heat, hot cars, etc decay the LiPo rapidly. So much so, it’s normally indicated in phone’s guide to not allow phone to get hot: don’t store in hot locations.

Getting maximum life from a LiPo battery requires optimal external treatment, and reduced capacity charging & discharging… Well Established. Although, to get optimal “use” from device (phone or sUAV) will require using the battery within it’s design of full capacity & discharge, that is including design of battery cycles beyond the common expected use of the battery (phone daily, etc). That’s evident as many indicate a very moderate charge/discharge practice of sUAV battery procedures, but yet many still indicate how batteries have failed, swelled, etc.

That goes back to what was stated above… max battery life vs optimal flight duration. Moving the curve toward max battery life practice doesn’t have a huge impact on battery life compared to optimal flight duration usage. Comparing the extreme ends of practice, Other factors generally effect battey life more.
 
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Most of my videos are no longer then 6-7 minutes. I hardly ever go below 60%. When I get home I will discharge them to around 40-45%. Been working for me for over 7 years.
What method are you using to discharge your barreries?
 
What method are you using to discharge your barreries?
I have a 3rd party charger that allows me to charge other things like phones, other drone batteries and such. There is one Amazon that discharges and charges 4 batteries at a time. I have no experience with that one but have heard its the cats butt to own.
 
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Hello all, for me, batteries are consumables. I love to be in the air as long as it is safely possible. I avoid getting below 15% depending of the circonstances but only for safety reasons. When the batteries would have to be replaced, I'll do without bother to care how old they are but with the feeling of having used them to stay in the air the longest possible at each flight.

Just my humble opinion.
 
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I have a 3rd party charger that allows me to charge other things like phones, other drone batteries and such. There is one Amazon that discharges and charges 4 batteries at a time. I have no experience with that one but have heard its the cats butt to own.
I've got that model for the both M2P and Air2/S... it does work nicely. Although it's limited on total Amps, so although it charges 4 simultaneously, it charges 2 higher, 1 middle and 1 low. As the 2 higher batteries reach upper charge (est 80%) they back down Amps and the other 2 increase Amps. Was frustrating at first, but now view it as helpful with it decreasing charge towards the top. Has a Storage Mode, target 40-65%, or 12V. If batteries less that 12v, it will charge to 12V, if Battery greater it will discharge to 12V. I've picked a After market 3 Battery simultaneous charging unit for M3, similar to the 3rd Party FPV 3 Battery charger... similar functionality.
 
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we all have our preferred methods of battery care ,and a lot of the time ,its down to how much time you have to actually fly the drone ,also where you live in this wonderful world of ours can and does play a significant role in battery life expectancy
where i live in the UK ,we dont have the extremes of weather with regards to very cold or very hot ,and its something that i think helps the batteries survive here quite well .
also from my perspective we also have very changeable weather patterns in the UK ,sometimes measured in hours never mind days ,so it is quite difficult to know exactly when you are going to be able to fly ,and a lot of times i have charged everything up for a days flying ,only to have the weather take a turn for the worse even before i have managed to get airborne
my way to try and prevent my batteries from sitting fully charged for to long ,is to have the sort of chargers that can charge up to 4 batteries plus the RC simultaneously, and that way i can decide on the day if conditions are suitable to fly and be all charged up within about 75 minutes and ready to go .
with whichever combination of drones i choose to fly that day.
to save the bother of having to bring my batteries back up to a storage charge level after having flown them ,i have found that i can get an acceptable amount for me anyway ,flight time by aiming to be on the ground with 40% battery left,it means that even if circumstances prevent me from flying for a few weeks, i know that the batteries are going to be ok ,i also check the cell voltages remaining in the app, after i have landed before i switch off the drone ,i have 4 batteries for each of my 3 drones that i am currently flying, and find that is more than enough for my needs ,
 
Regarding percentage and LiPo minimal voltage. Testing my M3Cine, flew til 28%... would have flown longer but 8F degrees and cold fingers! Hovered it inside til 14% then let it idle with System ON, motors OFF. When it hit 9%, it performed a "self" shut off and voltage indicated 3.67v each 4 cells (running, minimal load).

LiPo specifications are 3.0v minimum voltage, the Hobby RC world modifies that to 3.2v. The middle of a LiPo is 3.7v (3.8v LiHV) and per multiple RC LiPo Resources states 3.2 to 4.2 is standard range.

The DJI battery percentage is already calculated on the conservative, safety longevity side of LiPo Batteries.
Showing 10% at 3.67 is very high compared to using standard LiPo batteries in other platforms. Many of the non-smart LiPo are flown to 3.4v leaving a little room above 3.2v.

Personal preference on duration of flight and percentage of battery. Although with DJI Smart IC Batteries, it won't reach a damaging LiPo Voltage, DJI battery will shut off long before minimal voltage or damage is reached.

I'll redo this test when warmer and I'm curious if there is a drop-dead percentage the M3 will force land.
The DJI FPV has a drop-dead forced land... if I recall mine are about 8%.
 
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I've read multiple times that for batteries you should tend to store them between 80 & 20%. I'm sure the firmware errors on the side of caution for the batteries so I'd probably store at 50% or less if I have the option.

I know that HP over the last 2 years has had a heck of a time with their laptop batteries charging repeatedly to 100%. They pushed firmware out that generally maintains the battery at 80% for health reasons. We run an HP shop and I'm aware of 30 or 40 batteries swelling over the past 2 years and HP said it was due to bad charging habits when everyone shifted to work from home.
 
Personally I have less concern about battery percentage affecting battery longevity than I do about the battery running out of juice short of home and crashing or landing somewhere inaccessible.

That being said I really don't run much below what the controller states as 30-40%. I don't know if thats right or wrong, but it gives me peace of mind that I can make it back to home with plenty of battery to spare if things start to go wrong(wind).
 
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There's plenty to criticize DJI about, especially the first line support robots.

Batteries aren't one of them. DJI has near perfected their battery modules.

Just forget completely about battery levels, the battery module is doing a better job managing all this than you can. Just fly until low battery RTH kicks in, then come home and land.

Fully charge your batteries after each flight, so they're ready for tomorrow. If you go long enough without flying, they'll discharge on their own to 50%.

Trying to improve on this is really a waste of time. I've got 6 (7?) year old P3 batteries that work seemingly as good as new... coincidentally took the P3 out for a spin Saturday out of nostalgia.

Which adds to the point of not obsessing over this: long before any noticeable degradation, you'll probably have upgraded to a newer bird.

The P3, M1, and MA1 don't see any action these days. Mini 2 and Air 2 have all the fun. M3 when the drone savings jar gets full enough.

THAT'S a far more realistic take on DJI batteries :):)
 
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