Just a little Too Close for comfort

[Dronecation]

I DO fly "regular" aircraft. I've been Part 61 since 1998 and fly Single Engine Land.

Good to know. Then you might be familiar with flight radar or something similar. Maybe have a look there to see if they have a recorded event that you experienced.

Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map | Flightradar24

The world’s most popular flight tracker. Track planes in real-time on our flight tracker map and get up-to-date flight status & airport information.

www.flightradar24.com

or

FlightAware - Flight Tracker / Flight Status

Best Flight Tracker: Live Tracking Maps, Flight Status, and Airport Delays for airline flights, private/GA flights, and airports.

www.flightaware.com

These sites are a great tool not only for situational awareness, but also for practicing height judgement for aircraft in your vicinity.

 

[rickmurray1989]

Windows may be shuttered. Things that vibrate noticeably at low frequency, like drones in helo propwash, shudder.

Sorry, blame this on the ghost of my high school English teacher.

Truth... me, too. I am a writer as well and I am married to a retired English teacher.

 

[MS Coast]

Good to know. Then you might be familiar with flight radar or something similar. Maybe have a look there to see if they have a recorded event that you experienced.

Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map | Flightradar24

The world’s most popular flight tracker. Track planes in real-time on our flight tracker map and get up-to-date flight status & airport information.

www.flightradar24.com

or

FlightAware - Flight Tracker / Flight Status

Best Flight Tracker: Live Tracking Maps, Flight Status, and Airport Delays for airline flights, private/GA flights, and airports.

www.flightaware.com

These sites are a great tool not only for situational awareness, but also for practicing height judgement for aircraft in your vicinity.

Those apps report "barometric altitude." From what I understand, the altitude reported on those apps is what each individual airplane's instruments are reporting. Without knowing what barometric pressure an airplane's altimeter is set to, it's hard to know what altitude they're reporting. A local pilot might have set the altimeter to zero at the departure airport. How does the local elevation compare to the airport's? Other aircraft may have ther barometers set to 29.95 in hg or to the current reading at their destination.

Without knowing more, it's not good to rely too strongly on what those apps are reporting.

 

[BigAl07]

Good to know. Then you might be familiar with flight radar or something similar. Maybe have a look there to see if they have a recorded event that you experienced.

Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map | Flightradar24

The world’s most popular flight tracker. Track planes in real-time on our flight tracker map and get up-to-date flight status & airport information.

www.flightradar24.com

or

FlightAware - Flight Tracker / Flight Status

Best Flight Tracker: Live Tracking Maps, Flight Status, and Airport Delays for airline flights, private/GA flights, and airports.

www.flightaware.com

These sites are a great tool not only for situational awareness, but also for practicing height judgement for aircraft in your vicinity.

I use FlightRadar24 but it's more "entertainment" than anything else.

This next part is for ANYONE who uses or is interested in FlightRadar24 or Flight Aware . . .

• Do you realize the limitations of FlightRadar24?
• Do you have any idea what the Geography is there this took place? (hint tall mountains)

While I do believe it's gotten better over the last year or so, the last time I did a Deep Dive the Flight Apps (FlightRadar24 and FlightAware both use the same data etc) not only had huge GAPS in coverage but they also have potential lags of up to a few minutes. Also take into account that ADS-B isn't required to be operational in the Class GOLF airspace I operate in. Relying on an App is risky at best and downright crazy in my area.

Let's dive a bit deeper into FlightRadar24 (I just picked it because I use it):
"Our estimations show that roughly 70% of all commercial passenger aircraft (80% in Europe, 60% in the US) are equipped with an ADS-B transponder. For general aviation this number is probably below 20%."
That's COMMERCIAL aircraft.

ADS-B isn't required outside of Controlled airspace so that opens another big HOLE in this theory.

Now keep in mind this does NOT allow for Geographical issues such as mountains creating Radar Blind Spots. It happens that I am in the heart of such a spot. We are "Below the radar" until we get within about 10 miles of KAVL and above 5,000' AGL.

Now don't forget about the other "feeder" for these Aviation Tracking sites called MLAT (Multilateration) which helps to fill in the blanks in SOME areas. Here's the caveat for MLAT....
"MLAT coverage can only be achieved above about 3,000-10,000 feet as the probability that four or more receivers can receive the transponder signal increases with increased altitude"

Since we are operating below 1,000'AGL and inside of a mountainous "basin" we are 100% blind to radar and other ADS-B Rx devices.

I say all of this for TWO reasons:

• 1) So that others who think FlightRadar24 is the safest way to know if any Manned Aircraft are approaching can read and understand it's literally Flying Blind.
• 2) To demonstrate that the aircraft in question was well below any Flight Tracking what-so-ever.

I spent over an hour today on the phone with the FAA trying to find the aircraft in question (after they reviewed my video and agreed) but to no end. Without the N# (we can't determine it from the video due to the fact it flew overhead and the sun's angels we have no way to contact the operator). Initially I thought it was our local Tour Heli but after reaching out to them their aircraft has been down for Maintenance since last week. We are at a loss at this point.

Anyway, thank you ALL for watching and adding your input. It's all greatly appreciated.

Allen

 

[PK&W Modelwerx]

Please Do not take this as an insult nor am I wanting to preach to anyone BUT:
Without an Aircraft radio or VFR Low altitude sectional chart handy, You really have no way of Knowing what the air traffic around you is doing OR why.
Best to just get out of the way (land) and let them Pass. There is No way the pilot can see your Drone so you are the Hazard.
He may not have permission to do what he is doing BUT it is still your responsibility to stay out of the way.

You should have Landed as soon as you noticed the Helicopter headed your way.

Separation ! - You are WAY to close to that other Aircraft Remember- That helicopter pilot can not see a drone.

If the drone came so close to the Helicopter that it caused the drone to "shutter" I would keep that video to myself.

Just my advice and two cents.
We all face similar circumstances from day to day- and it doesn't make us Bad pilots in the least. One can never really fully evaluate a situation while it is happening. we can just take solice in knowing we learned a new lesson today

I thought UAS pilots are required to avoid manned aircraft in their vicinity and land as quickly as possible until the airspace is clear of manned aircraft. Is that not correct? Obviously there is some judgement to be exercised here as a manned aircraft at a very high altitude should not require landing your drone. What are the rules on this?

 

[mavic3usa]

I thought UAS pilots are required to avoid manned aircraft in their vicinity and land as quickly as possible until the airspace is clear of manned aircraft. Is that not correct? Obviously there is some judgement to be exercised here as a manned aircraft at a very high altitude should not require landing your drone. What are the rules on this?

§ 107.37 Operation near aircraft; right-of-way rules.​

(a) Each small unmanned aircraft must yield the right of way to all aircraft, airborne vehicles, and launch and reentry vehicles. Yielding the right of way means that the small unmanned aircraft must give way to the aircraft or vehicle and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.

 

[Dronecation]

I use FlightRadar24 but it's more "entertainment" than anything else.

This next part is for ANYONE who uses or is interested in FlightRadar24 or Flight Aware . . .

• Do you realize the limitations of FlightRadar24?
• Do you have any idea what the Geography is there this took place? (hint tall mountains)

While I do believe it's gotten better over the last year or so, the last time I did a Deep Dive the Flight Apps (FlightRadar24 and FlightAware both use the same data etc) not only had huge GAPS in coverage but they also have potential lags of up to a few minutes. Also take into account that ADS-B isn't required to be operational in the Class GOLF airspace I operate in. Relying on an App is risky at best and downright crazy in my area.

Let's dive a bit deeper into FlightRadar24 (I just picked it because I use it):
"Our estimations show that roughly 70% of all commercial passenger aircraft (80% in Europe, 60% in the US) are equipped with an ADS-B transponder. For general aviation this number is probably below 20%."
That's COMMERCIAL aircraft.

ADS-B isn't required outside of Controlled airspace so that opens another big HOLE in this theory.

Now keep in mind this does NOT allow for Geographical issues such as mountains creating Radar Blind Spots. It happens that I am in the heart of such a spot. We are "Below the radar" until we get within about 10 miles of KAVL and above 5,000' AGL.

Now don't forget about the other "feeder" for these Aviation Tracking sites called MLAT (Multilateration) which helps to fill in the blanks in SOME areas. Here's the caveat for MLAT....
"MLAT coverage can only be achieved above about 3,000-10,000 feet as the probability that four or more receivers can receive the transponder signal increases with increased altitude"

Since we are operating below 1,000'AGL and inside of a mountainous "basin" we are 100% blind to radar and other ADS-B Rx devices.

I say all of this for TWO reasons:

• 1) So that others who think FlightRadar24 is the safest way to know if any Manned Aircraft are approaching can read and understand it's literally Flying Blind.
• 2) To demonstrate that the aircraft in question was well below any Flight Tracking what-so-ever.

I spent over an hour today on the phone with the FAA trying to find the aircraft in question (after they reviewed my video and agreed) but to no end. Without the N# (we can't determine it from the video due to the fact it flew overhead and the sun's angels we have no way to contact the operator). Initially I thought it was our local Tour Heli but after reaching out to them their aircraft has been down for Maintenance since last week. We are at a loss at this point.

Anyway, thank you ALL for watching and adding your input. It's all greatly appreciated.

Allen

I'm not suggesting that FR24 is highly accurate, but for a general purpose app, it is an interesting tool to use and reference. I have many aircraft fly through my general area/airspace [class C ] that I try to accurately judge their height/altitude before checking with FR24 to see if it coincides with my guessing game...
I'm curious as to the height of that hilltop the helicopter banked around shortly before heading in your direction. I'm not totally familiar with Canton topography. But that hilltop height would be a good reference indicator of its altitude.

 

[thispilothere]

I am a firm believer if there is an aircraft in your vicinity and it's even possible on a similar flight level than your UAS, you land and you land immediately.

OP, from Feb 9, 2022.

 

[DARKSeifer]

It's relatively common to encounter copters during flight as they can land virtually anywhere and there are used for multiple jobs like ambulances or firefighting. If you are VLOS, unless the copter is flying low and the sound is being obstructed, you usually hear them way before they come.

Chances to crash on a three-dimensional space are quite low, but **** happens, so you can crash a bird, another drone, a copter, etc.

A big problem is that the Mavic 3 ADS-B in Europe isn't working at all, while the ADS-B on my previous Air2S worked without any problem (although not all aircraft in my area were equipped with a transmitter).

 

[Dbez1]

I’m probably more cautious than some here but as I read these posts, it reinforces the wisdom of VLOS.

 

[Hermey]

I have twice been in areas where either a helicopter or a small airplane flew very low. The helicopter may have been doing surveying work, the plane was in a place where one would expect sightseeing tours, and was flying over a lake. I could not estimate very well how low, but the plane I believe was under 400 feet. In the first case I did not have a drone up in the air, and due to the helicopter's low elevation, would not put it up until the copter left, which was in about 30 minutes.

With the plane, though it was at least 1/2 mile from my location, and I was not flying over the lake, I brought my drone down from approx 200 ft elevation to about 50 ft as soon as I saw the plane.

 

[AlanL]

I’m probably more cautious than some here but as I read these posts, it reinforces the wisdom of VLOS.

I had one scenario where even VLOS wasn't helpful. I was flying out along the Oregon coast shooting the Heceta Head lighthouse which is on an outcrop that juts out into the Pacific. I was standing on a beach in a small cove right below the lighthouse when a Coast Guard helicopter came ripping past hugging the coastline at no more than about 200' above the water.

Since the headland the lighthouse sits on sticks out into the water I never saw or heard the chopper until it came around the lighthouse at which time there was nothing I could do but stand there with my jaw bouncing off the parking lot and looking down at my screen to make sure my drone was still in the air. I am pretty sure he was lower than my drone but he was past the beach and around the next coastal cliff before I could really assess what had just happened. I got an ADS-B warning right as he came past but not in advance of seeing him.

I try to keep an eye out for those guy as best I can but when you are flying near the rocky headlands along the Oregon coast there is no guarantee you will spot them with enough time to get out of the way. That helicopter was in and out of my sight in about 3 seconds. He was on his way back to their air base so not wasting any time.

 

[sawman]

My thoughts are, it's not as close as it seems.
Been to Franklin and Asheville a couple times to work on med helos. Pretty country! Need to bring the wife up there to see Biltmore.

 

[KLRSKIR]

Check the chart. What's the elevation of those powerlines? He MAYBE had 50' on those.

 

[SabreX]

You don't see it due to "Gimbal Stabilization" but I watched the drone (not the ipad screen) actually ""shutter and slightly drop" just after the helo went over. I didn't move anything other than the camera gimbal to keep the aircraft "in frame".

How much is the down force of the helo? I know my drone pushes alot of air (and it's tiny). Directly over head at 250 feet above the drone (400' plus AGL for the helo) might shutter your drone. My $.02.

 

[thepushercg]

had a experience similar a few years back but with a small float plane, i fly the Tennessee river for the most part, i was around 150 foot or so above some parked barges, kept it aimed at the barges and started backing to the river bank, out of no where a small float plane come in and dropped down almost to my level above the barges, there was probally enough difference in space for us to miss if i had stayed over them i had gotten back to the bank, , just did not see or hear him coming in till he was there.

 

[BigAl07]

Just a quick update.

I got a note from my FAA Safety Team Manager and they confirmed this aircraft was indeed flying below min altitude when he circled this area. Their reasoning being:

"......Your video had several verifiable landmarks in it and according to our investigation that pilot was, most likely, in violation of more than one regulation. We are trying to identify the aircraft/pilot to be able to complete our investigation........."

That's the end of the conversation for me but at least they confirmed my suspicions.

 

[Xitor]

I frequently see Helicopters while flying. By my house usually med transport on way to nearby hospital. Down by WhiteRock Lake, often police helicopters. These are usually both fast and low. I've gotten in the habit now of when ever I hear these I drop to tree level ASAP.

 

[Donnie Frank]

While shooting on a Construction Site (pre-construction to be exact) today, hovering at 165' AGL, I heard the sounds of an approaching helicopter. I saw it coming pretty much in my direction but just a pinch off of flying over me. I realized she was lower than expected and hit RECORD just in case I could get a good vid of her. She flew to the side of us and then circled back behind the mountain before heading our way again. When she came over the peak she dropped altitude and flew seemingly directly at us (I know it was a coincidence) and flew directly over my location. It was so close that the drone (M2P) shuddered (but nothing to cause loss of control)from the helicopter passing directly over and what I would roughly guestimate to be 300' AGL. To say I was in HUGE PUCKER FACTOR is an understatement.

I realize it's hard to accurately judge altitude of an aircraft with no reference but since I was hovering at 165' AGL and the helicopter looks to be about that same amount higher than me, my guess is 300' AGL. Due to this not being a sparsely populated area and they were well within 500' of buildings/structures he was busting the regs easily.

Your thoughts?

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Very close to the same thing just happened to me a few days ago. I was in the middle of a waypoint mission flying just under 200' AGL when I could hear a helicopter. After looking around he seemed low and heading my direction. I threw her in ATTI and dropped down to 60 feet.

And you are correct that it is really tough for us to judge actual altitude of these craft. I can't speak for everybody, but I'm pretty sure I underestimate their altitudes by at least 50%, if not more. Case in point, a friend of mine flies a helicopter for the Sherriff's department. I saw him flying around so I called his cell and asked what his altitude was. To me, I was thinking right at 400'. He says, "1,000 ft." So, yeah...I was WAY off. Good times...

I wish I could talk to that helicopter pilot in your video. I would tell him that you don't get to ***** about drones AND fly too low. You get one or the other.

D

 

[mavic3usa]

Very close to the same thing just happened to me a few days ago. I was in the middle of a waypoint mission flying just under 200' AGL when I could hear a helicopter. After looking around he seemed low and heading my direction. I threw her in ATTI and dropped down to 60 feet.

Sorry, quick question what is "threw her in ATTI" mean? When I encounter low flying aircraft, I tend to just hover or if I'm pretty high then I just descend. But it sounds like you were in waypoints so you had to do something special to drop 150 feet?