Law Officer Claims My TRUST DOCUMENT Fake?

[Chaosrider]

I'm in a bit of a unique position in this industry, so I will push the point as diplomatically as possible (after I land obviously). Up to and including asking them to have they supervisor come if necessary.

And if I'm flying and need to finish, I'll let them know that as well. PD have zero authority to make me land unless that see a clear and present danger.

Not an unreasonable position, just a little more prodding than I would be.

And, of course, Cop or Karen, if I'm in the air, I'll land before having any conversations about this.

Thx,

TCS

 

[Ondapre]

helpful information guys thank you

 

[Dronin]

My suggestion for the future would be to never willingly provide anything to law enforcement unless asked to do so. If they want to see your DL, FAA registration, or TRUST certificate then they will ask for it.

Exactly this. Did you think that somehow this TRUST document was going to make you look "Official" or "Authoritative"? Anybody who sees that card would think that it's a joke and anybody who knows how easy it is to obtain one, will KNOW it's a joke" I predict that no LEO will ever seriously ask to see that document in the future.

 

[tca]

I just joined this forum to advice drone pilots that local law officers can possibly consider your TRUST
print out of your registered TRUST document a fake, and can possibly jail you for carrying a fake
FAA Government Document, at least that is what i learned the hard way. I got off with a verbal warning.
I went took the TRUST Test on June 23, 2021 and spent 25 minutes going thru the test and passing and printing out the
certification , took it with me, went up to Hole in the Wall waterfall, and after flying around and taking
some video's, decided to pack up and leave and along came the LAW, asking me what I was up to, explained I
was recreational flying my drone and videoing, showed my TRUST CERTICATION and was informed that possessing
a fake FAA document could get me jail time, tried to explain to no avail, just told to pack up and leave
and accept a verbal warning, so I did. THE END.
QUESTION: Is TRUST a LEGAL DOCUMENT OR NOT.
FYI: I was flying Mavic Air 2. I will provide my TRUST CERT IF YOU NEED VERIFATION.
Thanks pnwhiker

I am retired Law enforcement officer with 32 years of service and a drone flyer..... all I can say is you must of had a "real flaming AH" who said that....he probably didn't even know what a TRUST ID is.........it's idiots like this that
make people dislike law enforcement officers.....

 

[06-Hammerhead]

Actually, LEO can ask for the TRUST. If you don’t produce it, they will report that to the FAA.

That is simply not correct

 

[Vic Moss]

That is simply not correct

That is most definitely correct.

One of 8 rules that must be followed, and directly from 49 USC §44809. Exception for limited recreational operations of unmanned aircraft: "(7) The operator has passed an aeronautical knowledge and safety test described in subsection (g) and maintains proof of test passage to be made available to the Administrator or law enforcement upon request."

You might want to familiarize yourself with the rules before giving advice. You'll be less likely to get others in trouble.

Read up here: https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml...lim-title49-section44809&num=0&edition=prelim

 

[cgmaxed]

I just joined this forum to advice drone pilots that local law officers can possibly consider your TRUST
print out of your registered TRUST document a fake, and can possibly jail you for carrying a fake
FAA Government Document, at least that is what i learned the hard way. I got off with a verbal warning.
I went took the TRUST Test on June 23, 2021 and spent 25 minutes going thru the test and passing and printing out the
certification , took it with me, went up to Hole in the Wall waterfall, and after flying around and taking
some video's, decided to pack up and leave and along came the LAW, asking me what I was up to, explained I
was recreational flying my drone and videoing, showed my TRUST CERTICATION and was informed that possessing
a fake FAA document could get me jail time, tried to explain to no avail, just told to pack up and leave
and accept a verbal warning, so I did. THE END.
QUESTION: Is TRUST a LEGAL DOCUMENT OR NOT.
FYI: I was flying Mavic Air 2. I will provide my TRUST CERT IF YOU NEED VERIFATION.
Thanks pnwhiker

The officer simply doesn't know, that recreational pilots are only given printed certificates and registrations. Maybe the "cop" only knows about 107 licenses and he assumed that recreational pilots would also have something like what 107 pilots get.

 

[cgmaxed]

Well if the FAA is counting on Law Enforcement to help them enforce the rules he really should be up to date on whats going on.

FAA Issues UAS Guidance for Law Enforcement

FAA Issues UAS Guidance for Law Enforcement

www.faa.gov

I have found local law enforcement is only getting UAV pilot requirement knowledge by word of mouth or just those pilots they talk to during questioning or what not. I don't think any departments are formally training their police personnel any UAV FAA statutes. That's my take. Every time I talk to cop, except for the ones that actually fly drones for the department, they have no clue about FAAs rules and regs.

 

[sar104]

I have found local law enforcement is only getting UAV pilot requirement knowledge by word of mouth or just those pilots they talk to during questioning or what not. I don't think any departments are formally training their police personnel any UAV FAA statutes. That's my take. Every time I talk to cop, except for the ones that actually fly drones for the department, they have no clue about FAAs rules and regs.

Many PDs are providing formal training. Just not all.

 

[06-Hammerhead]

That is most definitely correct.

One of 8 rules that must be followed, and directly from 49 USC §44809. Exception for limited recreational operations of unmanned aircraft: "(7) The operator has passed an aeronautical knowledge and safety test described in subsection (g) and maintains proof of test passage to be made available to the Administrator or law enforcement upon request."

You might want to familiarize yourself with the rules before giving advice. You'll be less likely to get others in trouble.

Read up here: https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml...lim-title49-section44809&num=0&edition=prelim

I am confident in my position

 

[06-Hammerhead]

Exactly this. Did you think that somehow this TRUST document was going to make you look "Official" or "Authoritative"? Anybody who sees that card would think that it's a joke and anybody who knows how easy it is to obtain one, will KNOW it's a joke" I predict that no LEO will ever seriously ask to see that document in the future.

You are spot on!

 

[sar104]

I am confident in my position

Impressive, considering that the clearly worded law showing that you are wrong was actually quoted in the post you responded to.

 

[Vic Moss]

I am confident in my position

Don’t confuse confidence with fact. If an LEO asks for TRUST, you have to show it to them.

 

[cgmaxed]

If you got it, it isn't necessarily a good idea to flaunt it. The only thing, I have at the ready, is my registration. Every cop worth his or her salt should at least ask for that. Yeah I have the TRUST card, but won't take it out unless requested. Cops don't like it when you reach into a pocket or bag anyway.

 

[06-Hammerhead]

Folks - There are also laws on the "books" that say you can't spit on the sidewalk in the City of San Francisco (but enforcement is another thing). Relax - Follow the rules and enjoy the hobby. Local Law Enforcement is not chartered nor staffed to enforce FAA regulations. A complaint may be filed with the FAA, but it will carry the same weight as that filed by any citizen. You will NOT be "arrested" for flying your UAV if you follow the rules and fly responsibly. If you create a dangerous situation, it will be addressed as just that, UAV involved or not.

Thats' the last I will contribute on the subject. I'll let the conspiracy theorists, and anti law-law-enforecement drama seekers (you know who you are) have the last word. I'm sure he (they) will not be able to resist commenting and quoting the written word without any consideration of practical realities.

 

[06-Hammerhead]

Don’t confuse confidence with fact. If an LEO asks for TRUST, you have to show it to them.

See post in detail.

 

[sar104]

Folks - There are also laws on the "books" that say you can't spit on the sidewalk in the City of San Francisco (but enforcement is another thing). Relax - Follow the rules and enjoy the hobby. Local Law Enforcement is not chartered nor staffed to enforce FAA regulations. A complaint may be filed with the FAA, but it will carry the same weight as that filed by any citizen. You will NOT be "arrested" for flying your UAV if you follow the rules and fly responsibly. If you create a dangerous situation, it will be addressed as just that, UAV involved or not.

Thats' the last I will contribute on the subject. I'll let the conspiracy theorists, and anti law-law-enforecement drama seekers (you know who you are) have the last word. I'm sure he (they) will not be able to resist commenting and quoting the written word without any consideration of practical realities.

When flat out denial of facts fails to work, it's always worth giving deflection a try. Throw in some straw man ingredients as a hedge for good measure. Much better than simply admitting you were wrong.

 

[cgmaxed]

I'd ask for the statute or regulation number that legally establishes that prohibition.

TCS

POLICING AGENTS, EVEN COMMUNITY SERVICE ENFORCEMENT EMPLOYEES won't be able to quote statute numbers. They aren't lawyers, just enforcers of what they think (not know) the laws are. If they think it, you better just go along with it, because they will enforce what they think, not what is known.

 

[Vic Moss]

let it go Vic. You are swatting at the air. If you would like an actual conversation. IM me and we can connect voice to voice. I’d be happy to review any case law you can produce and perhaps inform you further about how the nexis of written regulations and actual enforcement practices work in the real world.


I look forward to speaking with you at your earliest opportunity. Or we can agree that we disagree and move on.

I have a number of questions I would like to ask of the members of this forum, but your myopic and dictatorial reaction to simple input makes me wary of doing so as I’m sure it does many many other visitors

I'm not sure why you're quoting SAR, but tell me to let it go.

The only thing I said was that if you are asked to produce a TRUST certificate, you need to. You're telling people they don't need to. I quoted 44809. That's all I did.

I never suggested anyone just offer it if and LEO approaches them. But if they ask, they need to produce it.

As far a case law, there hasn't been any that I'm aware of. But in reality, there won't likely be yet, if at all. The TRUST section of 44809 has only been around 4 or 5 weeks. Not enough time to produce a case, even if someone wanted to.

And you're right in that local LEOs won't enforce FAA laws. They can't. Nor are they called to.

As far as my authority, I'm the guy who wrote (& and is writing) the LEO training for drone calls. I wrote the training and used if the first time with my LEAP Agent. He and I trained one of the local agencies as a test, and will have the final training for done once the CBO requirement is settled (44809 (2)). When I reached out to my FAA contacts and asked for some training, I was told it didn't exist. I said I'd write it if they'd like, and they jumped at it.

Once that training is done and approved via FAA Legal, it will be used by myself and other FAASTeam members to train local law enforcement.

And in that training I have a section on TRUST (the part I'm currently editing), and it will specifically mention that they are authorized to ask for it. And should.

The FAA uses TRUST as a training tool. Not an enforcement tool. It was never intended at much. If a cop ends up in situation where there is a hobbyist who doesn't have one, the FAA requests that person's contact information be forwarded to LEAP. That way people like me (& a few others in this group) can reach back out and help people learn the rules. That's the entirety of the reason behind TRUST. No cop will ever arrest anyone for not having a TRUST cert on them. They're not called to. And although I haven't read this entire thread, I hope no one is staring otherwise. It isn't true.

And like many forum threads, this one is a bit confusing to follow. I'm not sure if people are putting me in the anti-cop camp or not. If so, people will have to take my word that I'm about as pro-cop as the come. Otherwise I wouldn't bother spending personal time writing, editing, and perfecting the LEO UAS call training for the FAA. I want cops to know what they can do, and cannot do, when someone calls them about a drone flying around. Not only do I want them to have the tools at their disposal to remove a nefarious drone from the air (legally), I also want them to not get in trouble while doing it.

My goal is to have an FAA LEAP card (https://www.faa.gov/uas/public_safety_gov/media/Basic_Law_Enforcement_Response_Drone_Card.pdf) in every patrol card in Metro Denver. And so far I'm doing a decent job of that. I carry them in my truck, and hand them out every chance I get. And I've dropped them off at a couple of agencies already, so I know at least two of my local agencies have that capability.

If you have any questions @06-Hammerhead , I'm more than happy to answer them. Offline if you wish. I'm easy to find. vic@dspalliance.org

 

[dirkclod]

Guys your starting to go round and round here.
Everyone stay civil and stop repeating posted material
and this can go on otherwise it will be over. ?