I'll concede that distinction for the 2000' flight minimum since the FFA or whoever is only asking nicely, and people can freely ignore the request. History is full of laws that once seemed unnecessary.
Local Restrictions, Does anyone other than the FAA have the right?
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It's both. There are required altitude minimums and there's a request that pilots stay higher. But, since the minimum altitude is higher than the 400' maximum for drones, neither the requirement or the request really apply to drones.
The other item being discussed regarding drones operations in National Parks is an outright prohibition.
So drones in National Parks are skunked either way, unless a waiver is obtained.
(I hope the weather clears soon so I can fly instead of reading about it here.)
There's a waterfall I've been wanting to go buzz and had planned to get over there today, but the smoke in the air just makes it not worth the effort. 10,000 videos of the falls on line, but there's that "I want to do that" aspect driving me.
What is making me crazy is I'll be flying in from a place that won't be posted: the end of a 4x4 trail on the less traveled side of the ravine (tap two hobbies at once). No clue if the area I'll be flying to is officially off limits to drones or not - can't find any hint of restrictions on-line, and won't be able to read any posted signs on the south side of the water, but it's the sort of popular place I'd expect there to be something to keep drones out of peoples hair. I'm doubtful I'll be in violation of any actual laws, and will fly anyway, but it's these grey areas that always nag at me.
What is making me crazy is I'll be flying in from a place that won't be posted: the end of a 4x4 trail on the less traveled side of the ravine (tap two hobbies at once). No clue if the area I'll be flying to is officially off limits to drones or not - can't find any hint of restrictions on-line, and won't be able to read any posted signs on the south side of the water, but it's the sort of popular place I'd expect there to be something to keep drones out of peoples hair. I'm doubtful I'll be in violation of any actual laws, and will fly anyway, but it's these grey areas that always nag at me.
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No - the 2000 ft AGL in FAR 7-4-6 is a request. There are no required minimums over those specific areas other than the generally applicable minimums in 14 CFR §91.119, which explicitly do not apply to sUAS per §91.1 (f).
As they say in New Orleans, "Yeah, you right." I'd gotten some bad information relative to the National Wildlife Refuges nearby marked with the solid blue line and row blue dots inside it. It looks like 7-4-6 doesn't prohibit drone operations in NWRs.
Good summary here:
Other Airspace
Airspace may be considered as 'other' when not otherwise designated by a class or as special use, but necessary to curtail some aviation operations.
www.cfinotebook.net
I'm not able to find an overall statement about drones in NWRs. In their online materials, many individual NWRs state that drones are not allowed. But what about Breton National Wildlife Refuge? Their website doesn't mention drones. But is there an overall regulation that would exclude operating a drone there?
Anyone?
Who knew we'd have to be lawyers to understand the rules and regs for flying drones.
Here's an NWR take on drones:
I won't fly my drone from, in or above a wildlife refuge. There is enough circumstantial writing about it being forbidden the cost of finding out the underlying facts by trial and error is too high for my budget.
ps: Launching, landing, or operating an aircraft to include unmanned aircraft (drone)from or on lands and waters administered by the US Fish and Wildlife Service is prohibited, 50 CFR 27.34.
which expands to:
50 CFR § 27.34 - Aircraft.
The unauthorized operation of aircraft, including sail planes, and hang gliders, at altitudes resulting in harassment of wildlife, or the unauthorized landing or take-off on a national wildlife refuge, except in an emergency, is prohibited. National wildlife refuge boundaries are designated on up-date FAA aeronautical charts.
Which brings us back to the definition of AIRCRAFT, to which I posted earlier, includes drones.
Here's an NWR take on drones:
I won't fly my drone from, in or above a wildlife refuge. There is enough circumstantial writing about it being forbidden the cost of finding out the underlying facts by trial and error is too high for my budget.
ps: Launching, landing, or operating an aircraft to include unmanned aircraft (drone)from or on lands and waters administered by the US Fish and Wildlife Service is prohibited, 50 CFR 27.34.
which expands to:
50 CFR § 27.34 - Aircraft.
The unauthorized operation of aircraft, including sail planes, and hang gliders, at altitudes resulting in harassment of wildlife, or the unauthorized landing or take-off on a national wildlife refuge, except in an emergency, is prohibited. National wildlife refuge boundaries are designated on up-date FAA aeronautical charts.
Which brings us back to the definition of AIRCRAFT, to which I posted earlier, includes drones.
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As noted in the post above, drone operations are prohibited on wildlife refuges, similar to the prohibition on NPS land. That's not an airspace restriction. However, you could also be cited under various laws regarding harrassment of wildlife even if you operated from outside the refuge itself. I wouldn't recommend even thinking about flying over a refuge without explicit written permission from USFWS.As they say in New Orleans, "Yeah, you right." I'd gotten some bad information relative to the National Wildlife Refuges nearby marked with the solid blue line and row blue dots inside it. It looks like 7-4-6 doesn't prohibit drone operations in NWRs.
Good summary here:
Other Airspace
Airspace may be considered as 'other' when not otherwise designated by a class or as special use, but necessary to curtail some aviation operations.
I'm not able to find an overall statement about drones in NWRs. In their online materials, many individual NWRs state that drones are not allowed. But what about Breton National Wildlife Refuge? Their website doesn't mention drones. But is there an overall regulation that would exclude operating a drone there?
Anyone?
Cars are forbidden. But I own an automobile. Automobiles are forbidden. But I own a Ford. Cars and automobiles, including Fords are forbidden. But I own a Ford Mustang. Cars and automobiles, including Fords and Ford Mustangs are forbidden.
Just how deep does rule, law, statute, or general advisory need to go to get a point across?
Just how deep does rule, law, statute, or general advisory need to go to get a point across?
That document is from an individual NWR, the James Campbell refuge in Hawaii. Many NWRs have similar things on their web documents. Breton NWR has nothing regarding drones. I'm trying to figure out whether there's an overall regulation regarding all NWRs or whether it' set on an individual refuge basis.
I'm not sure I understand your point. If it's about flying over National Wildlife Refuges, I'm unable to find anything specific that prohibits drones in all NWRs, and the one I'm interested in has no mention of drones on their website.
National Wildlife Refuges are different entities from National Parks, Wilderness Areas, National Forests, and federal Wildlife Management Areas. It seems like they all have their own rules about drones. National Park regulations don't address NWRs.
(I just came in from doing two long flights over the beach and marsh her to scope out damage from Hurricane Ida. That was a whole lot more fun that trying to figure out whether I can fly at Breton NWR.)
dronerdave
Well-Known Member
It's a lot like fishing and hunting regulations. You better know those rules before planning your adventure. For instance angling in waters off limits to fishing can get you in a heap of trouble. Try telling a game warden you never saw a no-fishing sign and see how far that gets you.
Can I fly my drone over a national wildlife refuge?
"Areas considered ecologically sensitive—including lands within the National Wildlife Refuge System, host to threatened or even endangered species—can be disproportionately affected by drone flights. Thus it is illegal to operate unmanned aircraft on Refuge property without special permits." This seems logical IMO.
So even if it's a bit vague for a specific area, common sense says stay away in my opinion. Again how authorities enforce it might vary. The deal is YOU are responsible for your actions. Using an attitude of better to ask forgiveness rather than gaining permission probably won't work well in those situations. Best to research it before trying to fly from refuge grounds. As far as flying from public lands open to drone flights and into a reserve or refuge, I'd be very cautious for reason sar104 points out.
Can I fly my drone over a national wildlife refuge?
"Areas considered ecologically sensitive—including lands within the National Wildlife Refuge System, host to threatened or even endangered species—can be disproportionately affected by drone flights. Thus it is illegal to operate unmanned aircraft on Refuge property without special permits." This seems logical IMO.
So even if it's a bit vague for a specific area, common sense says stay away in my opinion. Again how authorities enforce it might vary. The deal is YOU are responsible for your actions. Using an attitude of better to ask forgiveness rather than gaining permission probably won't work well in those situations. Best to research it before trying to fly from refuge grounds. As far as flying from public lands open to drone flights and into a reserve or refuge, I'd be very cautious for reason sar104 points out.
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No - it's a universal rule for wildlife refuges run by USFWS:
50 CFR § 27.34 Aircraft.
The unauthorized operation of aircraft, including sail planes, and hang gliders, at altitudes resulting in harassment of wildlife, or the unauthorized landing or take-off on a national wildlife refuge, except in an emergency, is prohibited. National wildlife refuge boundaries are designated on up-date FAA aeronautical charts.
sar1104, that certainly pins it down, an overall restriction on all NWRs. Thanks.
dronerdave, I think you may have understood that i said that I had flown over an NWR yesterday. That's not the case; it was in Class G airspace more than 20 miles from the Breton NWR.
dronerdave, I think you may have understood that i said that I had flown over an NWR yesterday. That's not the case; it was in Class G airspace more than 20 miles from the Breton NWR.
The idea is that when officials try to set limits of things for good reasons, and this applies to almost anything that restricts what people do, some people try to subvert the rules. The personal freedom excuse is getting old. Some of these rules protect everyone's rights, not everything is about me, me, me. A rule to not overfly people protects the people being overflown. Why? Because the me-me drone drivers crashed into crowds enough a law was needed to protect the rest of us. So if said drone-driver is upset their right (privilege's, really) was taken away - they only have themselves to blame.
dronerdave
Well-Known Member
No not at all. My posts were not directed at you...sorry about that. I should have posted WE are all responsible for all our actions.
Even I have flown in a few spots that I found out later I wasn't supposed to be at. When I first bought my MP back in 2016 (even though some of the rules have changed over the last few years), I incorrectly thought the geo fencing would automatically keep me from me from flying from spots like wilderness areas, national parks, and classified airspace. Obviously that is not the case and I feel many are confused about geo fencing. While camping I even flew in [or close to] a forest fire TFR zone I had no clue about. I'm a bit more savvy these days thanks to posts by the more informed members like sar104 and others. While I don't think you need to be a lawyer to figure out where you can fly in compliance, sometimes it can be slightly complicated to research specific regional regulations. It would be nice if my drone automatically kept me out of those areas but I have never flown connected to the internet and I often fly where there is no internet, so the burden of finding if I'm in compliance is on my back.
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[off-topic]
Worth reading: the BF quote - in context - meant exactly the opposite of what it is often used for.
www.npr.org
Worth reading: the BF quote - in context - meant exactly the opposite of what it is often used for.
Ben Franklin's Famous 'Liberty, Safety' Quote Lost Its Context In 21st Century
He once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." That quote often comes up in the context of new technology.
www.npr.org
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Yes - that is such a misused quote. I've almost given up trying to explain the context of that letter, since the people using it don't actually care whether they understand it or not.[off-topic]
Worth reading: the BF quote - in context - meant exactly the opposite of what it is often used for.
Ben Franklin's Famous 'Liberty, Safety' Quote Lost Its Context In 21st Century
He once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." That quote often comes up in the context of new technology.
I wish I had a drone I trusted to keep me in the right places, too. It certainly would be simpler.
It's interesting that the DJI Geo system show no restrictions for the NWR I'm interested in. And the FAA's own B4YouFly system not only shows no restrictions, but states "Clear for Takeoff, No active advisories." I suspect it would be difficult for the FAA to successfully prosecute anyone for flying in an area that their own app says is "Clear for takeoff." But I'll not be the one to test it.
I agree that this forum is a great source of information and a valuable resource. This discussion is a good example. It seems like most of us here are very serious about understanding the regulations and flying safely and responsibly. But don't you sometimes envy the folks who just look at DJI Geo or B4YouFly (or less) and take off happily without any further thought? Ignorance and bliss do sometimes go hand-in-hand. At least temporarily.
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Those are not FAA restrictions, and it's not the FAA who would be prosecuting. And it's because they are not airspace restrictions that neither the Geo system nor the apps that you mentioned show them.
Aha. Well, that makes sense.
At least it does until I think about the National Parks. They National Park Service prohibits drone operations in the parks, as US Fish & Wildlife Service prohibits them in the NWRs. Both a part of the Department of the Interior. DJI Geo doesn't flag National Parks, but B4YouFly does, showing them in red with "Restricted Operations" flags.
What's the logic there? Thanks, by the way.
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