LOS distances, and the law.

[Merstham Flyer]

I’m intrigued when reading various posts on here about the distances that some people have achieved. I’ve seen mentions of over 1 mile, 3 kms, and more. Here in Australia, the law is don’t fly beyond unassisted LOS.
I lose “line of sight” with my Mavic after a few hundred meters/yards.
I understood most countries have the same or similar “distance” regulations as well as the normal flying above people and buildings rules as well.
Am I misreading regulations or is it OK to fly these distances?

 

[lannes]

Everyone doing long distances is technically breaking the law

 

[raytom]

In urban areas this regulations are absolutely usefull, but when I fly in the deserts of morocco and follow a rally-car (and the driver knows, that there is a drone around ), I dont think that this could harm anything.

 

[Haggar]

in the uk, its 500 meters. Im the same as the op, after a couple of hundred meters or so, I loose sight. However, I have gone much further didtances using active tacking when I've done stuff with my truck.

 

[The Editor]

Oh good - Another VLOS thread!

Search results for query: VLOS

mavicpilots.com

 

[Mikero]

in the uk, its 500 meters. Im the same as the op, after a couple of hundred meters or so, I loose sight. However, I have gone much further didtances using active tacking when I've done stuff with my truck.

In the UK, it has to be in direct sight, there is no specific distance limit.

 

[The Editor]

In the UK, it has to be in direct sight, there is no specific distance limit.

Yes there is.

CAP722 3.6/3.6.1

Within the UK, VLOS operations are normally accepted out to a maximum distance of 500 metres horizontally from the remote pilot, but only if the aircraft can still be seen at this distance. The ANO also limits the maximum distance from the earth’s surface to a height of 400 feet (see para 3.20 below). Operations at a greater distance from the remote pilot may be permitted if an acceptable safety case is submitted. For example, if the aircraft is large it may be justifiable that its flight path can be monitored visually at a greater distance than 500 metres. Conversely, for some small aircraft, operations out to a distance of 500 metres may mean it is not possible to assure or maintain adequate visual contact, and so the aircraft must obviously be kept closer to the remote pilot.

 

[Mikero]

normally accepted

Normally accepted isn't a definitive limit. My point is that it is within line of sight. If one can only see their AC at 10 metres then the UK law says they may only fly to a maximum of 10 metres. If a pilot is able to maintain visual line of sight at 505 metres, then that is his legal limit.

 

[The Editor]

Normally accepted isn't a definitive limit.

It is by the CAA.
CAP 393 must be read in conjunction with CAP722

An operation greater than 500m distance requires an OSC submission and permission granted on that OSC from the CAA.

You can argue as much as you like but I‘m betting you do not operate commercially.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

I’m intrigued when reading various posts on here about the distances that some people have achieved. I’ve seen mentions of over 1 mile, 3 kms, and more. Here in Australia, the law is don’t fly beyond unassisted LOS.
I lose “line of sight” with my Mavic after a few hundred meters/yards.
I understood most countries have the same or similar “distance” regulations as well as the normal flying above people and buildings rules as well.
Am I misreading regulations or is it OK to fly these distances?

Well yes, VLOS is a rule, albeit variable depending on an individuals vision.
Though I suspect even the most rule conscientious drone pilot sometimes loses sight of their drone.
And hey, flying looking at your even your device screen is technically not flying in VLOS, after all, when taking video or searching for / composing photos, you are pretty much constantly looking at your screen, not the drone.
If experienced, and quite close, and you read your telemetry / Go4 app maps etc, you can look up and see it pretty quick.

Strobes are a good option to assist, though it doesn't mean you should go flying off to the absolute limit of light vision some can give you (many km).
The spirit of VLOS is mostly being able to detect a threat by your drone to manned aircraft, probably more helicopters in urban and busy tourist flight airspace, but very rarely light planes may have reason to fly low too.
Ideally, manned aircraft should be sticking to 500m +, drones 400m or under, 100m safety buffer, and 'never the twain shall meet'.

In urban areas this regulations are absolutely usefull, but when I fly in the deserts of morocco and follow a rally-car (and the driver knows, that there is a drone around ), I dont think that this could harm anything.

I agree wholeheartedly !!
As per your avatar location, if there are no rally event aircraft about filming etc, what harm ?
I admit I have flown a km away, in a very sparse area where no aircraft would ever be (apart from 30000 feet), the inland Pilbara in WA, and just once
But in similar places in central Australia, I will fly often BVLOS a little way, behind a sand dune, or 500m away, this was pre Firehouse strobe time.
Now I'm pretty sure next trip inland I will easily see my drone wherever I fly it to about that limit.

 

[FoxhallGH]

It's true that Line-of-Sight (LOS) is mentioned in a lot of industries. For example, if you are setting up a WiFi link to extend an IT network between two buildings, then LOS can be out to 'miles' and simply means - not physically obstructed between one end and the other ... Or to put it another way, you can sit on the antenna at one end, and see the other antenna using a telescope! However, when the word 'Visual' comes into it, it does imply & require that you can actually see the 'drone' that you are looking at as a discernible object.
As has been mentioned earlier, some regulatory authorities also include a number in regard to how far they actually consider the 'Visual' distance to be (e.g. 500 metres).

 

[macoman]

The thing that I really don't understand is the best and expensive drones can go 4 to 7 miles and this is a feature that is illegal in the US, but why the government allow to sell it and don't tell the drone makers that going farther than 3 miles can't happen and ban their products? This is the thing that I don't get it. Usually if a product do something that is considered illegal, the government don't allow the specific product to be for sale.

 

[Davros007]

I’m intrigued when reading various posts on here about the distances that some people have achieved. I’ve seen mentions of over 1 mile, 3 kms, and more. Here in Australia, the law is don’t fly beyond unassisted LOS.
I lose “line of sight” with my Mavic after a few hundred meters/yards.
I understood most countries have the same or similar “distance” regulations as well as the normal flying above people and buildings rules as well.
Am I misreading regulations or is it OK to fly these distances?

There’s no specific limit in Australia. But you cannot use binoculars etc. as you say. However on a clear day where I live, I can see my mavic pro against white clouds at 600m. That could be drastically reduced near a smoky city. I’m probably 400km from a big center. Hoping to extend with strobes. So I guess 1km could be possible just before sunset - but you cannot fly after sunset. So your right in your assumption that the long distances are likely illegal.

 

[Congoblue]

The thing that I really don't understand is the best and expensive drones can go 4 to 7 miles and this is a feature that is illegal in the US, but why the government allow to sell it and don't tell the drone makers that going farther than 3 miles can't happen and ban their products? This is the thing that I don't get it. Usually if a product do something that is considered illegal, the government don't allow the specific product to be for sale.

Well my car can go to 150mph which would be illegal, but I was still allowed to buy it. I can buy a knife which could stab someone. It's the user's responsibility to stay within the law.

The advantage of having such a big potential range is it makes the radio link much more reliable if you have slightly dodgy conditions like trees. The fact that it has enough power to work out to 7 miles makes it much less likely to drop out at 500m.

 

[macoman]

Well my car can go to 150mph which would be illegal, but I was still allowed to buy it. I can buy a knife which could stab someone. It's the user's responsibility to stay within the law.

The advantage of having such a big potential range is it makes the radio link much more reliable if you have slightly dodgy conditions like trees. The fact that it has enough power to work out to 7 miles makes it much less likely to drop out at 500m.

That is true but to drive a car you need to have a driving license. But I agree with you.

 

[FoxhallGH]

That is true but to drive a car you need to have a driving license. But I agree with you.

To fly my drone, I need a 'Flyer Registration' and an 'Operator Registration' - and I need to pay an annual fee to keep it ...

 

[theDRONEranger]

The thing that I really don't understand is the best and expensive drones can go 4 to 7 miles and this is a feature that is illegal in the US, but why the government allow to sell it and don't tell the drone makers that going farther than 3 miles can't happen and ban their products? This is the thing that I don't get it. Usually if a product do something that is considered illegal, the government don't allow the specific product to be for sale.

While VLOS does possibly seem to be violated a lot, it is possible (US) to obtain a, Part 107, VLOS waiver. Then the question becomes, what is the max distance for control of the drone or, how far until battery RTH?

 

[scoble08]

The thing that I really don't understand is the best and expensive drones can go 4 to 7 miles and this is a feature that is illegal in the US, but why the government allow to sell it and don't tell the drone makers that going farther than 3 miles can't happen and ban their products? This is the thing that I don't get it. Usually if a product do something that is considered illegal, the government don't allow the specific product to be for sale.

Like automobiles?

 

[Merstham Flyer]

Normally accepted isn't a definitive limit. My point is that it is within line of sight. If one can only see their AC at 10 metres then the UK law says they may only fly to a maximum of 10 metres. If a pilot is able to maintain visual line of sight at 505 metres, then that is his legal limit.

It is by the CAA.
CAP 393 must be read in conjunction with CAP722

An operation greater than 500m distance requires an OSC submission and permission granted on that OSC from the CAA.

You can argue as much as you like but I‘m betting you do not operate commercially.

There’s no specific limit in Australia. But you cannot use binoculars etc. as you say. However on a clear day where I live, I can see my mavic pro against white clouds at 600m. That could be drastically reduced near a smoky city. I’m probably 400km from a big center. Hoping to extend with strobes. So I guess 1km could be possible just before sunset - but you cannot fly after sunset. So your right in your assumption that the long distances are likely illegal.

hi, I used “Flytron” strobes on a previous drone, but only for the orientation of the AC. Do you know if there’s any out there you can see past 500m?

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

hi, I used “Flytron” strobes on a previous drone, but only for the orientation of the AC. Do you know if there’s any out there you can see past 500m?

For sure there are the popular US Firehouse Technology (FHT) strobes.
With only the one led in the Strobon, it is good for farily close, like regular VLOS and be able to see it pretty quick if you looked away.
I can't recall the lumens for each when doing the research many months ago, but it isn't anywhere near the output of the FHT strobes.
The duals with 2 leds, ARCII with 4, Spark with 5, and ARC XL with 5 . . .

White is the best colour for VLOS use.

Trouble is they won't ship o/seas, actually not even over the border to Canada !!

I have some FHT strobes coming from the US (with a relative) in a week or so, going to get them shipped down from Brisbane when they return, or going up there again in a couple of weeks and pick them up.
Getting a couple for other forum users (Aust and NZ) and ordered a few more (ARCII and Spark strobes) for spares.
If interested, PM me . . . I am doing this at cost in AUD, with bank card payment fees and onforwarding cost only, as a favour for locals here.

I flew out to 700m recently with the ARCII public series red / white (2 of each white / red leds) and could see it clearly against a horizon, rarely do I go past that.
The 4 white led would be a vast improvement, have those coming, but only a couple of spares due to cost.
I have 6 extra Sparks coming too, with a magnifying dome over the 5 leds, it throws light out at more acute angles, better for some drones like the Air where the batteries underneath are about the only place to fit strobes (if not using arm mounts).