Mavic Pro boring for me once I learned I can't fly out of LOS

[FlyGuy8675309]

[/QUOTE]

I remember seeing a YouTube video of a Mavic with LED strobe lights attached.
That should increase the distance in which it stays within LOS.

Lights really do nothing for you unless it's twilight/dark. Lighting is kind of a hobby within a hobby for me, so I've tried a lot.

The brighest self-contained light I've found is the Firhouse Arc II: It's basically 4 synced strobe lights. Now at twilight or in the dark, you can see this past 3 miles. Thing looks like a radio tower beacon!

Daytime testing shows it isn't really visible beyond the usual VLOS of the Mavic, even in overcast conditions. We're talking 1/2 mile or so. So adding lights to your quad for daytime flying really doesn't help much.

(https://www.amazon.com/Firehouse-Technology-Intensity-Approved-Quadcopter/dp/B078Q9W2B4)

 

[JMF]

Just obey the laws like our government does and you'll be ok .....

 

[blurred55]

Just obey the laws like our government does and you'll be ok .....

The government gets away with it. If I "do it" then they can destroy my entire life.

 

[DroningOn]

Just obey the laws like our government does and you'll be ok .....

I think we can do a better job than them. I just choose to follow actual laws, not make up new ones or read more into them then they actually say “Just to be safe”

 

[DroningOn]

The government gets away with it. If I "do it" then they can destroy my entire life.

The government, at all levels, only get away with it if we keep our mouths shut and let them.
Interview hundred people at random and ask them what our first amendment says and I bet 95+ of them have no idea that besides addressing speech and religion it also says this: “right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances”. Make your voices heard people. Write a letter to your representatives, attend a city council meeting, make a phone call. Participate in the process. It’s not just our right, it’s our duty.

 

[matap]

I can see pretty far. Still fun for me......wink wink

 

[Chip]

..."Tacking an additional interpretation on to an endless daisy chain of previous interpretations" is the exact definition of "legal precedence" (or stare decisis), and is what every court/judge in the world does every day...

Thats right unless or until someone finds a weak link in the law and finds a way to break the chain! Its a great analogy you and Droning came up with here!
I would supplement your analysis with one thing in response to Droning: state prosecutors do not need a special drone statute to charge someone with reckless endangerment if drone causes an accident or injury or the risk of one. Whether someone's flying created an unreasonable risk of harm may require consideration of relevant FAA or other rules, regulations, guidelines, or standards which may be admissable in court. One should be careful about saying unequivocally that guidelines are not statutes and therefore cannot be used against someone in court because there are various ways guidelines can come through the front door or sneak in through the back.

 

[neggy]

The lighting on a Mavic Pro does not meet FAA/FAR requirements for night flying.

There is no way they are 3 mile visible, plus they do not have the right coloring or orientation for an aircraft to see the sUAV, determine the orientation and direction, and more importantly to avoid it.

We can get into long discussions on 107 107.29 waivers ( anyone ever get one? I can't get one approved!) and if night flying is allowed under hobbyist (333) rules.

Personally, unless I have the drone right in front of me, I put on a set of 5 strobes, Cree Strobon's 2 reds, 2 greens, and one white held on the sUAV with 3D printed holders that snap on the arms. Day or night they go on the Mavic if it is more than 50 feet away.

Cree represents them to be FAA compliant for 3 mile visibility.

I find they extend my VLOS significantly

 

[Chip]

We can get into long discussions...if night flying is allowed under hobbyist (333) rules.

Personally, unless I have the drone right in front of me, I put on a set of 5 strobes, Cree Strobon's 2 reds, 2 greens, and one white held on the sUAV with 3D printed holders that snap on the arms. Day or night they go on the Mavic if it is more than 50 feet away.

Cree represents them to be FAA compliant for 3 mile visibility.

I find they extend my VLOS significantly

I have read here before that night flying is not expressly prohibited under AMA hobbyist guidelines which means it may be reasonable and okay for the hobbyist/recreational flyer to do depending on all facts and circumstances.

 

[FlyGuy8675309]

We can get into long discussions on 107 107.29 waivers ( anyone ever get one? I can't get one approved!) and if night flying is allowed under hobbyist (333) rules.

You are needlessly making this issue more confusing than it needs to be. A tiny bit of research clears up ANY confusion about recreational night flying and the lighting requirements:

Here's what the FAA says:

SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT. (a) IN GENERAL.—Notwithstanding any other provision of law relating to the incorporation of unmanned aircraft systems into Federal Aviation Administration plans and policies, including this subtitle, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may not promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model aircraft, or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft, if— (1) the aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use; (2) the aircraft is operated in accordance with a community based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;


So going from (2): The AMA is the largest nationwide community-based organization, and here's what their rules are for night flying:
"Night flying requires a lighting system that provides the pilot with a clear view of the model’s attitude and orientation at all times. Hand-held illumination systems by themselves are inadequate for night flying operations and must be supplemented with other lighting systems."
___________________________________________________________________

To summarize: There is NO FAA rule prohibits recreational night flying; AMA rules specifically allows it as long as you have proper lighting.

 

[FlyGuy8675309]

I have read here before that night flying is not expressly prohibited under AMA hobbyist guidelines which means it may be reasonable and okay for the hobbyist/recreational flyer to do depending on all facts and circumstances.

Read my post above: Under AMA rules, night flying is NOT PROHIBITED, IT IS ALLOWED as long as you have the proper lighting.

 

[wastair]

I believe that flying beyond VLOS is illegal, altitude is a suggestion.

surely this is one of those laws like speeding... its illegal to do 32 in a 30 but 99% of the population does it. I cant see the police jumping out of a bush and smacking you down before taking your mavic because you flew it more than 400m away.

 

[macoman]

surely this is one of those laws like speeding... its illegal to do 32 in a 30 but 99% of the population does it. I cant see the police jumping out of a bush and smacking you down before taking your mavic because you flew it more than 400m away.

Unlike driving that have the risk of a cop catch you when you are speeding. We do not have that issue if you are flying in a remote location.

 

[Wrinkle249]

Actually, there is federal law on this (in the United Sates). 49 U.S.C. 40102; 14 CFR 1.1. and the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012 (Section 336), to name the specific relevant federal law(s).

Technically, you must be flying within VLOS. If you're not, then the FAA does not consider you a model aircraft flying for recreational purposes, and you must then abide by FAA rules for unmanned aircraft (Part 107). Part 107 has strict rules (i.e. laws) that prohibit flying beyond VLOS under most circumstances.

Quoting the FAA:
"With respect to UAS used as model aircraft, the FAA reiterated the operating guidelines in AC 91-57, and further noted that to qualify as a model aircraft, the aircraft would need to be operated purely for recreational or hobby purposes, and within the visual line of sight of the operator. The policy statement also clarified that AC 91-57 applied only to modelers and “specifically excludes its use by persons or companies for business purposes.” 72 FR at 6690."

and..

"By definition, a model aircraft must be “flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft.” P.L. 112-95, section 336(c)(2). 1 Based on the plain language of the statute, the FAA interprets this requirement to mean that: (1) the aircraft must be visible at all times to the operator; (2) that the operator must use his or her own natural vision (which includes vision corrected by standard eyeglasses or contact lenses) to observe the aircraft; and (3) people other than the operator may not be used in lieu of the operator for maintaining visual line of sight."

Granted, legalistically it seems like a "ouroboros" (a circular symbol depicting a snake, or less commonly a dragon, swallowing its tail), due to the fact that in order to be determined as recreational and be exempt for Part 107 rules, you need to fly VLOS, but recreational flyers technically have no law promulgated that prohibits them from flying beyond VLOS. You could argue this of course if you end up hauled into Federal court, but it's a losing argument for sure with the FAA, and likely the same for the Federal judge.

If you want to read about this further, then dive into this:
https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/model_aircraft_spec_rule.pdf

With that said - and I know it has been argued to exhaustion on this website, are the DJI goggles EVER allowed to be used outdoors by the operator of a Mavic. They are part of the $1299 MPP bundle at Costco right now... With the goggles on you cannot be flying VLOS.

What if I can see directly out of my backyard for 10 miles and can see ANY and ALL manned aircraft in the area where my MP is flying but sometimes look down at my screen to see what I am recording and lose site of the bird - sometimes for a minute or 2 if its profile is lost in the background of the mountains? And in this case the orientation for me is almost never for sure as I usually cannot see the red light blinking and if I am shooting video they are off with the back strobe not bright enough on a sunny day.

Seems silly to even sell the DJI Goggles in the US if they are not really allowed?

 

[beachcombing]

Seems silly to even sell the DJI Goggles in the US if they are not really allowed?

You would just need a visual observer and you would be fine. No big deal.

 

[Wrinkle249]

You would just need a visual observer and you would be fine. No big deal.

Not according to lisadoc's post with the following quoted:

(1) the aircraft must be visible at all times to the operator; (2) that the operator must use his or her own natural vision (which includes vision corrected by standard eyeglasses or contact lenses) to observe the aircraft; and (3) people other than the operator may not be used in lieu of the operator for maintaining visual line of sight"

 

[FlyGuy8675309]

Not according to lisadoc's post with the following quoted:

(1) the aircraft must be visible at all times to the operator; (2) that the operator must use his or her own natural vision (which includes vision corrected by standard eyeglasses or contact lenses) to observe the aircraft; and (3) people other than the operator may not be used in lieu of the operator for maintaining visual line of sight"

There are two sets of rules, commercial (107) and hobbyist (336):
107: Fact Sheet – Small Unmanned Aircraft Regulations (Part 107)
336 (deferring to AMA rules): https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/550.pdf

Both allow for a spotter maintaining VLOS.

 

[blurred55]

Not according to lisadoc's post with the following quoted:

(1) the aircraft must be visible at all times to the operator; (2) that the operator must use his or her own natural vision (which includes vision corrected by standard eyeglasses or contact lenses) to observe the aircraft; and (3) people other than the operator may not be used in lieu of the operator for maintaining visual line of sight"

It does seem like the DJI Goggles are illegal than if you can't use a spotter

Unless you got a commercial waiver for no VLOS

 

[FlyGuy8675309]

It does seem like the DJI Goggles are illegal than if you can't use a spotter

Unless you got a commercial waiver for no VLOS

Not correct. If you use a spotter (and follow the other VLOS guidelines in either section) you are fine using Goggles.

 

[RayOZ]

This is a never ending discussion. This thread might be closed soon, like most when it descends in to a back and forth argument/heated discussion about drone laws.
Most of us are stuck between:
1. Lawmakers wanting to ban drones
2. Reckless pilots making this hobby look dangerous to the general public
Most of us just have to use a bit of common sense and discretion when flying.