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Please clear up density altitude for me

dmcgrew

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In my part 107 studying I’ve been so confused by density altitude. Here’s a question that always confuses me..

What effect does high density altitude have on the efficiency of a UA propeller?

Answer: Performance is decreased.


Does the word high refer to the density of the air or the altitude? I took this to mean the air is more dense which, I think, would increase performance.
 
In my part 107 studying I’ve been so confused by density altitude. Here’s a question that always confuses me..

What effect does high density altitude have on the efficiency of a UA propeller?

Answer: Performance is decreased.

Does the word high refer to the density of the air or the altitude? I took this to mean the air is more dense which, I think, would increase performance.

High air density - aircraft perform as if they were at a "higher" altitude. Understanding Air Density and its Effects | Coast Flight
 
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Density altitude is the equivalent altitude for a particular pressure and temp
Every 1hpa below 1013 is equivalent to 30ft above sea level and then the temperature should be 15 degrees c at sea level and 2 deg c colder for every 1000ft higher than sea level. For every deg c warmer than this, it adds 120ft to density altitude.

Sooo on a hot day with low pressure system the density altitude could be 100s,(if not 1000s) of ft higher than actual altitude, but on a colder higher pressure day the density altitude will be lower than actual.

Density Altitude = [elevation + (1013-QNH)x30] + [(Actual temp - ISA temp) x 120 ]

To answer question, higher density altitude means thinner, less dense air, and reduced efficiency of propellers
 
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Here is a link to the FAA information on DENSITY ALTITUDE
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gsl...P-8740-02 DensityAltitude[hi-res] branded.pdf


Putting the high density altitude question on a 107 exam (along with a bunch of other questions on the 107)
is totally useless in preparing one to be drone smart or safe.

This quest is a prime example why the FAA has to revise the 107 certification process.

asking the question.....What effect does high density altitude have on the efficiency of a UA propeller?

Who Cares......First off this information is vital if your butt is in a full size aircraft and you intend to avoid a life threatening situation.

In my Mavic drone the aircraft is managed by the technology all I actually do is relocate it somewhere in the cosmos.

OK there is an effect on the props but guess what compensates for this change in flight performance in such a situation...the drone does.

Example what do you do specifically and different with your drone when you take off on a 90 degree day from a spot in New Orleans which typically has an altitude of 1 foot below sea level and then again on a 90 degree day from a spot in Denver Colorado where the average altitude is well over 5000 feet ?
The answer is I start my drone and push the button...the drone compensates all necessary considerations to rise to 3 feet and wait for my next command.

In my narrow and chemically altered mind high density altitude changes nothing that I have to do when flying my drone. The drone will compensate motor rpm, battery management and who knows what else to rise and maintain flight in either of these locations.
Additionally in an envelope defined by my line of sight and a maximum ceiling of 400 feet unless I am flying in some precise edge of the envelope high performance way I could care less about what effect density altitude has on the props on my drone.


here is a link to a pilots experience with takeoff limitations in a high density altitude situation in a small aircraft. There are definitely serious considerations for the PIC in a real plane but in a technology toy with limited flight envelope what is the purpose.
High Density Altitude Takeoff Tip
mikemoose55
 
Agree. There should be a separate test for drone pilots.
Yes there are things about true airplane flying that a drone pilot should know, but the question on high density is useless for drone pilots and studying it is a waste of time.
 
Agree. There should be a separate test for drone pilots.
Yes there are things about true airplane flying that a drone pilot should know, but the question on high density is useless for drone pilots and studying it is a waste of time.
Consider the fact that a 107 cert. is good for aircraft weighing up to 55 pounds, which would include very large fixed wing units that may be more susceptible to certain weather effects. I can see the reason for including such questions. Not everyone with a cert. is flying a 2 lb. quad.
 
What effect does high density altitude have on the efficiency of a UA propeller? ....Does the word high refer to the density of the air or the altitude? I took this to mean the air is more dense which, I think, would increase performance.

Exactly! Your question is very valid.
The question should be phrased "What effect does "high altitude have" on the efficiency of a UA propeller?

high density altitude seems to be an oxymoron. At high altitude the air is less dense.

"Aircraft pilots know this.... Lower air density penalizes pilots in three ways: The lifting force on an airplane’s wings or helicopter’s rotor decreases, the power produced by the engine decreases, and the thrust of a propeller, rotor or jet engine decreases. These performance losses more than offset the reduced drag on the aircraft in less dense air. "
We don't have worry about combustion engine power loss, only propeller lift force loss.

.....What effect does high density altitude have on the efficiency of a UA propeller?

Who Cares......First off this information is vital if your butt is in a full size aircraft and you intend to avoid a life threatening situation.
In my Mavic drone the aircraft is managed by the technology all I actually do is relocate it somewhere in the cosmos.
OK there is an effect on the props but guess what compensates for this change in flight performance in such a situation...the drone does.

mikemoose55
Good point.
I guess the only thing comes to mind is that the Mavic will compensate, but the battery life will be shorter.
 
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Consider the fact that a 107 cert. is good for aircraft weighing up to 55 pounds, which would include very large fixed wing units that may be more susceptible to certain weather effects. I can see the reason for including such questions. Not everyone with a cert. is flying a 2 lb. quad.

still a totally unnecessary issue, line of sight and 400 foot ceiling is a very small air space.
Lastly
while there may be a few heavy drones out there the majority of the pilots involved with a 107 are just like you and me flying a commercial out of the box and go drone.

in my mind it is the same bull squirt they put on the test relative to cloud types and related weather. Hell just go look outside, you don't need a METAR or a TAF to operate a droneunder LOS and 400 feet, just wet your finger and stick it in the air.
mikemoose55
 
still a totally unnecessary issue, line of sight and 400 foot ceiling is a very small air space.
Lastly
while there may be a few heavy drones out there the majority of the pilots involved with a 107 are just like you and me flying a commercial out of the box and go drone.

in my mind it is the same bull squirt they put on the test relative to cloud types and related weather. **** just go look outside, you don't need a METAR or a TAF to operate a droneunder LOS and 400 feet, just wet your finger and stick it in the air.
mikemoose55

100% agree
 
Exactly! Your question is very valid.
The question should be phrased "What effect does "high altitude have" on the efficiency of a UA propeller?

high density altitude seems to be an oxymoron. At high altitude the air is less dense.

"Aircraft pilots know this.... Lower air density penalizes pilots in three ways: The lifting force on an airplane’s wings or helicopter’s rotor decreases, the power produced by the engine decreases, and the thrust of a propeller, rotor or jet engine decreases. These performance losses more than offset the reduced drag on the aircraft in less dense air. "
We don't have worry about combustion engine power loss, only propeller lift force loss.


Good point.
I guess the only thing comes to mind is that the Mavic will compensate, but the battery life will be shorter.

Not quite that simple, because at high altitude you must of course calculate density altitude in order to be safe when taking off, but geberally, only in an aircraft you are sitting in. However, when compensating you must also take into account the ambient air temp, because this affect density altitude. The hotter the air at that high altitude, the greater the density altitude, or in other words, the thinner the air, so the longer the runway needs to be in order to take off and the less performance you will have in that aircraft as you carefully climb out.

I used to fly out of a dirt strip in Granby Colorado of 1,800 ft in length and our runway altitude was 8,200ft with a barbwire fence at the end and beyond that a slight rising hill. There was only one way out because of a mountain side close to the other end of the runway. In winter it was no problem to get off and be well clear of everything on take off and climb out. But in summer we were not so lucky. Most days we were fine from sunrise but as the morning temps rose, it was only until about 9:20am before it was not safely possible to take off and clear the fence or the rising hills past the end of the runway. And even earlier to shut down take offs if you had a passenger on board, because of the added wait, combined with the drop in performance of engine/prop and lift efficiency of your lifting surfaces (wings or rotor blades).

Cold summer days were still fine to fly past 9:20am but warm or hot summer days meant that there was no more flying until later in the evening after a certain time passed in the morning (between 8:30 to 9:30am most days), because you could not get off the ground in time to clear the fence at the end, or could not clear the rising ground after the end of the runway if you did manage to clear that fence, and don't even think about making a turn just after take off.

Several pilots have taken off from high altitude runways in summer with full flaps and been flying at a shallow climb angle, more or less still in ground effect, then dumped theor flaps to clean up the aircraft, thinking they were improving their performance, only to find their aircraft dropped to the ground once they dumped the flaps, and of course crashed. After flying at our runway altitude, we used to think of Denver as sea level!

As has been stated, this is very important to know for real pilots sitting in aircraft, but of little use to a drone pilot, for anything other than lowered battery life and slower climb performance.
 
The solution is rather simple when dealing with high altitude + short runway and barbwire fence.
Few examples:
Add more engine or add more wing surface. ;)
Go for a vertical-take-off a vehicle.
Relocate the runway to an area where the end of the runway meets with a dropoff... rather than a hillside.

Sounds like someone built a runway in a wrong location. :)
 
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High density altitude is not an oxymoron.
The term is density altitude, and it can be high or low.
I do agree that not really important for general purpose multirotor craft. But i guess its all part of having good aerodynamic and aircraft performance understanding.
Im not a fan of dumming down required knowledge to make it easier for the masses, but ive been in the industry for close to 50 years so i eat and breathe this stuff for a long time so maybe biased
 
The solution is rather simple when dealing with high altitude + short runway and barbwire fence.
Few examples:
Add more engine or add more wing surface. ;)
Go for a vertical-take-off a vehicle.
Relocate the runway to an area where the end of the runway meets with a dropoff... rather than a hillside.

Sounds like someone built a runway in a wrong location. :)

No sounds like you don't understand the real world. I suppose you will also say a solution to being poor is to simply come up with lots of money!!!

Denver airport, the old one, could not have a Europe bound 747 take off after about 11:30am in summer because it would never get off the runway. Therefore, if the flight encounter delays in the morning, it simply had to be cancelled and moved to the following morning for departure. What is your simple solution for that scenario please? I know, relocate Denver to New Orleans, right?
 
Agree. There should be a separate test for drone pilots.
Yes there are things about true airplane flying that a drone pilot should know, but the question on high density is useless for drone pilots and studying it is a waste of time.
Part 107 is, in fact, a separate test for drone pilots. You are assuming that the FAA would lessen the "Airman's Knowledge Curriculum" for drone pilots. They do not as they tend to treat every type of drone between .55 lbs. and 55lbs the same.
You need to understand that the certificate you are applying for covers the larger dromes as well as your typical smaller camera drones where these parameters are not changeable or as critical. Larger drones with variable payload (mission specific) require that the load and performance parameters be calculated precisely to ensure a safe flight for both those on the ground and to protect the investment in equipment that runs into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is why the performance parameters are on the test and why they are important.

Interestingly, on helicopters, the actual performance increases as fuel is burned because the load becomes lighter. Not true with battery-powered drones. This would also apply to drones doing agricultural spraying. As the payload lessens, the power demands decrease. This performance factor can have significant importance to flight time/distance and safe mission performance. Your Part 107 certificate covers this information for that reason.
 
Understand the facts stated. Perhaps what I should have stated is something like, the test should have a version for recreational use or maybe a separate rest for drones weighing less than a pound.
I still fail to see the relavence or the usefulness of an air density question to pilots of drones like the Mavic series, Spark, etc., especially since by law altitude is limited to 400ft. and, as you note, the battery weighs the same (+ or - a few electrons) throughout any flight.
Not arguing against the law or getting certified, arguing the use of questions completely irrelevant to the recreational drone pilot.
 
Gunteacher said "You need to understand that the certificate you are applying for covers the larger dromes as well as your typical smaller camera drones where these parameters are not changeable or as critical. Larger drones with variable payload (mission specific) require that the load and performance parameters be calculated precisely to ensure a safe flight for both those on the ground and to protect the investment in equipment that runs into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is why the performance parameters are on the test and why they are important. "
Can't fully agree and here is why.....anyone flying a drone that is capable of variable payloads and running a tab of several hundreds of thousand of dollars for the aircraft not to mention the payload $$$$ absolutely are out of our league . To throw a blanket big enough to cover them and us together and still restrict us to LOS and 400 feet is
the heart of the problem. Not to mention the FAA simply threw darts at a private pilots requirements and taped over the name and inserted drone UAS pilots.
To suggest we might be in the same league as a private pilot and possibly one of these makes no sense.
FAA needs to dumb it down to address the parameters we actually fly under.
Just my silly a$$ point of view.
mikemoose551552858402639.png
 
I don’t need to spend mega $ to fly a 55lb craft.
Your flying in airspace shared with pilots that have a minimum knowledge. What is the issue with having this same knowledge.
I must admit, I’m not all over your U.S. regs so not aware that your rec pilots need to go this far. In Australia, at this time, rec pilots don’t need to go this deep in their knowledge. Only those that wish to fly commercially or have chosen to get RePL.
 
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I don’t need to spend mega $ to fly a 55lb craft.
Your flying in airspace shared with pilots that have a minimum knowledge. What is the issue with having this same knowledge.
I must admit, I’m not all over your U.S. regs so not aware that your rec pilots need to go this far. In Australia, at this time, rec pilots don’t need to go this deep in their knowledge. Only those that wish to fly commercially or have chosen to get RePL.
Your regs illustrate my point exactly. U.S beaurocracy doesn’t need to split hairs, but as analogy they should part the hair to separate those functioning commercially or regular yin the same airspace from the recreational pilot limited to 400ft altitude and line of site.
 
Gunteacher said "You need to understand that the certificate you are applying for covers the larger dromes as well as your typical smaller camera drones where these parameters are not changeable or as critical. Larger drones with variable payload (mission specific) require that the load and performance parameters be calculated precisely to ensure a safe flight for both those on the ground and to protect the investment in equipment that runs into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is why the performance parameters are on the test and why they are important. "
Can't fully agree and here is why.....anyone flying a drone that is capable of variable payloads and running a tab of several hundreds of thousand of dollars for the aircraft not to mention the payload $$$$ absolutely are out of our league . To throw a blanket big enough to cover them and us together and still restrict us to LOS and 400 feet is
the heart of the problem. Not to mention the FAA simply threw darts at a private pilots requirements and taped over the name and inserted drone UAS pilots.
To suggest we might be in the same league as a private pilot and possibly one of these makes no sense.
FAA needs to dumb it down to address the parameters we actually fly under.
Just my silly a$$ point of view.
mikemoose55View attachment 66391
Don't disagree with your point of view, only answering the Part 107 test question and the logic being used or misused by the FAA.
 
Understand the facts stated. Perhaps what I should have stated is something like, the test should have a version for recreational use or maybe a separate rest for drones weighing less than a pound.
I still fail to see the relavence or the usefulness of an air density question to pilots of drones like the Mavic series, Spark, etc., especially since by law altitude is limited to 400ft. and, as you note, the battery weighs the same (+ or - a few electrons) throughout any flight.
Not arguing against the law or getting certified, arguing the use of questions completely irrelevant to the recreational drone pilot.
I understand your frustration so I will ask, why are you taking the Part 107 test if you are going to fly recreationally? I realize that at some future date the FAA will in all likelihood require all UAS pilots to test but I suspect the test for recreational piloting will be somewhat less stringent.
Don't disagree with your point of view, only answering the Part 107 test question and the logic being used or misused by the FAA.
BTW, the missile photo is funny and is certainly part of a UAS but hardly FAA controlled. I'm aware of this as I'm involved in the military hardware business as a paying job.
 
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