Question for experienced drone pilots in Canada...

[Zbip57]

That is the case with virtually every safety-based rule. They are in place to avoid potential consequences - that's the whole point. There is no data to suggest that I am not capable of driving 200km/h on every highway safely, and it would very likely be fine most of the time, but I'm still not allowed to do it because of potential consequences.

Yes, simple physics predicts the greater kinetic energy of crashing at high speed potentially causes more severe consequences than at low speed. But it's ridiculous to claim that you are "safe" driving at speeds up to 100km/h on Hwy 407, but "unsafe" at 101km/h.

Speed alone is rarely the cause of a crash. There are many other factors which are potentially more likely to directly influence the actual risk -- highway design, traffic density, road condition, relative speeds of other vehicles, driver attentiveness (i.e. texting while driving!), vehicle maintenance, tire choice, etc etc. And yet enforcement tends to focus entirely on speed limits, since that's the simplest to monitor.

"Speed kills." Nope. It's extreme rapid changes in speed that kill.

I believe that this weight category (sub-250) would have data to support the weight limit.

That's just it. There is no data to support it, and never has been any data to support a 250g weight limit.

Setting such limits requires both data to support it, and public policy to enforce it. Education is the best method to obtain compliance.

Where is that data?

Intuitively one would assume that the risk of injury would be far less if struck by a sub-250g Mavic Mini, compared to being hit by a massive industrial octo-copter carrying a heavy movie camera. And yet, what is the actual risk of being killed by such an octocopter? How many times in the entire world has is happened so far? Do we have data for that? If so, how many times has it happened with a 251gram drone?

The 250 gram limit was derived entirely by hypothetical assumptions, no data whatsoever. It originated from this 2015 UAS Task Force report: www.hsdl.org/?view&did=788722

 

[CanadaDrone]

Yes, simple physics predicts the greater kinetic energy of crashing at high speed potentially causes more severe consequences than at low speed. But it's ridiculous to claim that you are "safe" driving at speeds up to 100km/h on Hwy 407, but "unsafe" at 101km/h.

Speed alone is rarely the cause of a crash. There are many other factors which are potentially more likely to directly influence the actual risk -- highway design, traffic density, road condition, relative speeds of other vehicles, driver attentiveness (i.e. texting while driving!), vehicle maintenance, tire choice, etc etc. And yet enforcement tends to focus entirely on speed limits, since that's the simplest to monitor.

I am not sure I see your point - nobody is claiming that 101 KM/h is a problem or that a 1g variance on the drone is likely to be a serious problem.

The fact of the matter is that a line has to be drawn somewhere, otherwise the argument of "just one more km/h" or "Just one more gram" can go on indefinitely from it's previous value. In the real world with human based enforcement, there is often an element of discretion involved. I'd prefer not to test that in either case, however you are far more likely to have a problem at, say, 20% over any given limit rather than 1%. Hard limits are in place should something need to go to court or similar, to remove any doubt.

It's also no secret that many "limits" in life are arbitrarily chosen based on maximum revenue generation and not safety. That is nothing new and unfortunately just a fact of life. Nobody likes it, but we have to abide by it or face the consequences.

In the case of a drone, it costs $5 to avoid a maximum of $30,000 worth of fines ($6,000 for an individual). Pretty easy cost/benefit analysis for most people whether you agree with the rules or not.

 

[Zbip57]

Registration is cheap and keeps you legal. No downside. Fly in Class C airspace legally if over 250g. That was my reason for getting the Mini 2, then the Mini 3 Pro.

Yes. That was my reason as well for getting my Mini. Just follow the "Don't be stupid rule" and it's all good.

I still have my Phantom 3 Pro too, and ultimately submitted to registering it and taking and passing the exam for a Basic Certificate so I can stay legal. Now I can fly my Phantom again on the few occasions where I have need to.

But it still irks me that, to stay legal, I need to maintain a log book [901.48 (1)(a)] to document every flight, plus keep a maintenance log for a full two years [901.48 (1)(b)] if I so much as decide to change a propeller blade. Sheesh.

 

[Zbip57]

I am not sure I see your point - nobody is claiming that 101 KM/h is a problem or that a 1g variance on the drone is likely to be a serious problem.

Transport Canada is unlikely to come after anyone for a 1g variance. But this forum is full of people who are always quick to point out valid stuff like the following:

yes you have to register if the drone is 250g or above. For the mini 3 that means if you add a strobe, landing gear, prop guard, or the Plus battery. Registration is easy and cheap. I registered mine right away, as I sometimes add a strobe or the larger battery.

Adding a strobe light is of obvious safety benefit. Adding prop guards decreases the risk of injury to bystanders. Landing gear extenders help protect vulnerable equipment like cameras and gimbals.

And yet, all those safety benefits are preempted and superseded by the risk of exceeding the far more important magic 250g limit, as though the added weight of those accessories somehow represents a far greater danger to society.

Sure, you can add those items any time if you simply agree to pay the registration fee every two years, take the tests and keep your log books up to date, and pass the recency requirements every two years, etc. Sheesh.

It could be worse though. If you're American, you'll have people on this forum jump to tell you that you can't ever use your unregistered sub-250g Mini for anything useful, like inspecting your rain gutters, unless you hold a full Part-107 credential.

 

[CanadaDrone]

Transport Canada is unlikely to come after anyone for a 1g variance. But this forum is full of people who are always quick to point out valid stuff like the following:

Fair enough, but it's a valid point given the rules.

Adding a strobe light is of obvious safety benefit. Adding prop guards decreases the risk of injury to bystanders. Landing gear extenders help protect vulnerable equipment like cameras and gimbals.

And yet, all those safety benefits are preempted and superseded by the risk of exceeding the far more important magic 250g limit, as though the added weight of those accessories somehow represents a far greater danger to society.

Sure, you can add those items any time if you simply agree to pay the registration fee every two years, take the tests and keep your log books up to date, and pass the recency requirements every two years, etc. Sheesh.

It could be worse though. If you're American, you'll have people on this forum jump to tell you that you can't ever use your unregistered sub-250g Mini for anything useful, like inspecting your rain gutters, unless you hold a full Part-107 credential.

I think the safety benefits of those items are debatable. Strobe lights can be very distracting and can make other things difficult to see especially in the dark. Prop guards make the drone more susceptible to a gust of wind taking it away and injuring someone. Landing gear used to protect components on the drone have nothing to do with improving the safety of other people. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying it's debatable and one could very easily argue that those additions aren't net positive safety benefits in all scenarios. Prop guards are typically for indoor flights as well, and nobody is going to bother you if you are flying indoors on private property over 250g. Also, I think adding too many items like that would significantly affect the performance of a drone as light as the M3P.

The biggest concern with weight is if the drone falls out of the sky or comes in contact with a person/vehicle/aircraft. If you put a bunch of extra 'safety' equipment on the drone that increased it's weight, that weight still comes into play if it rams into something. For whatever reason, 250g has been chosen as the limit whether we like it or not and thankfully $5 and the biggest joke of an exam I have ever seen is all that's really required if you want to go over that limit while staying legal.

Again, I totally understand your frustrations, but I also see the other side of it. With regards to the limits, we all know most limits are set for revenue purposes (especially speed limits) but we don't have a choice but to follow them. Thankfully we have lots of options in the drone world. Personally I plan on using a M3P and M3 in tandem depending on what I am doing and where I am traveling.

 

[shadow3467]

A good chunk of Scarborough is OK for flying in terms of control zones, although keeping 50 m away from people is tricky everywhere in the GTA. Richmond Hill and Markham are mostly within the control zone for Buttonville, while Pearson and Billy Bishop cover most of Toronto and Mississauga.

Lots of good places to fly within an hour's drive of the city, but you really need a car to get there.

yeah seems pointless honestly for 10-12 minutes of extra flight on a battery

It's too restrictive with where you can fly, when you fly in the same areas as sub 250 with no problems at all

It's a shame, because I JUST got my basic license and I was so excited to maybe even get an Air 3 if that ever comes out or a Mavic 3, but now I realize I wouldnt be able to fly them anywhere in like 80% of the city unless I go out to the country.

 

[shadow3467]

Fair enough, but it's a valid point given the rules.



I think the safety benefits of those items are debatable. Strobe lights can be very distracting and can make other things difficult to see especially in the dark. Prop guards make the drone more susceptible to a gust of wind taking it away and injuring someone. Landing gear used to protect components on the drone have nothing to do with improving the safety of other people. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying it's debatable and one could very easily argue that those additions aren't net positive safety benefits in all scenarios. Prop guards are typically for indoor flights as well, and nobody is going to bother you if you are flying indoors on private property over 250g. Also, I think adding too many items like that would significantly affect the performance of a drone as light as the M3P.

The biggest concern with weight is if the drone falls out of the sky or comes in contact with a person/vehicle/aircraft. If you put a bunch of extra 'safety' equipment on the drone that increased it's weight, that weight still comes into play if it rams into something. For whatever reason, 250g has been chosen as the limit whether we like it or not and thankfully $5 and the biggest joke of an exam I have ever seen is all that's really required if you want to go over that limit while staying legal.

Again, I totally understand your frustrations, but I also see the other side of it. With regards to the limits, we all know most limits are set for revenue purposes (especially speed limits) but we don't have a choice but to follow them. Thankfully we have lots of options in the drone world. Personally I plan on using a M3P and M3 in tandem depending on what I am doing and where I am traveling.

The problem isn't that you need to register and take the test to be able to fly over 250

The problem is that in the city of Toronto and it's surrounding suburbs, you literally legally can't fly your drone AT ALL if it's above 250g.

So the plus battery and all those accessories are basically useless.

Im not sure how anyone in this city has any actual bigger drone like an Air2s or Mavic 3, because they would need to drive out an hour just to be able to use it

Seems like the Mini 3 with standard batteries is the sweet spot for the GTA

 

[KLRSKIR]

Good discussion here and I'm learning quite a bit about Canadian sUAS laws. Kinda tight eh? (I had too...)

My family has a cottage on Lake Erie in NY State. I would frequently head across the Rainbow bridge and enjoy all that Canada has to offer around Niagara and Toronto. Fast forward to 2022. I can't even take an aircraft over the boarder.

Back on topic: Did anyone notice in the battery manual that DJI does NOT recommend using prop-guards or any other "payload" when using the "plus" batteries? Just wanted to throw that out there.

 

[Robert Prior]

Im not sure how anyone in this city has any actual bigger drone like an Air2s or Mavic 3, because they would need to drive out an hour just to be able to use it

That's just what I've been doing for years.

Even without airport control zones to worry about, maintaining 30 m horizontal separation between people and your drone is very difficult in an urban area.

 

[Zbip57]

The problem is that in the city of Toronto and it's surrounding suburbs, you literally legally can't fly your drone AT ALL if it's above 250g.

You cannot with only a Basic certificate, as Basic operations are not permitted within controlled airspace. But you legally can with an Advanced certificate, if provided with the proper authorizations.

 

[Zbip57]

Fast forward to 2022. I can't even take an aircraft over the border.

In Canada, if it weighs more than 250grams, you cannot operate it unless it is registered and you hold either a Basic or Advanced certificate. The problem for foreign visitors is that only citizens of Canada or permanent residents are able to register their drones -- 901.04(1) . Tourists need to go through a cumbersome Special Flight Operations Certificate process (SFOC) to obtain permission to fly.

However, sub-250g drones are not required to be registered, nor is either a Basic or Advanced certificate required to operate them. That applies equally to tourists.

However, it's not a complete free-for-all. There are still a few sensible restrictions that do apply as explained in this video:

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[CanadaDrone]

The problem isn't that you need to register and take the test to be able to fly over 250

The problem is that in the city of Toronto and it's surrounding suburbs, you literally legally can't fly your drone AT ALL if it's above 250g.

So the plus battery and all those accessories are basically useless.

Im not sure how anyone in this city has any actual bigger drone like an Air2s or Mavic 3, because they would need to drive out an hour just to be able to use it

Seems like the Mini 3 with standard batteries is the sweet spot for the GTA

Understood, but that's the beauty of the M3P. Under 250g when you need to be, and you can use the plus batteries if you wish when traveling or in an area with fewer restrictions. Best of both worlds.

I live in Calgary and you can't fly a drone over 250g here either except for some large school/soccer fields (which I suspect you can in Toronto as well, but maybe it's different). Regardless, that isn't a very interesting flying location. I travel a lot and that is primarily where I use my drones. I also do professional Real Estate photography and having decent quality drone I can fly pretty much anywhere in the city as long as I'm not being an idiot is nice.