Raw vs JPEG

[darkneskies]

DNG is an open format and the specs are published, lens corrections are specified in there. Whether a camera manufacturer provides the relevant opcode in their files has nothing to do with Adobe, and if they do it's in the specified format. And once the data is there any software can make use of it, it just seems the one you use doesn't but it would be on them, the data is there and the format is open so there is no reason they couldn't.
https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/dng_spec_1.4.0.0.pdf

Note that some camera manufacturers also provide built-in lens corrections in their proprietary RAWs too, and LR makes use of those as well if no detailed profile is available.

DNG is an open format and the specs are published, lens corrections are specified in there. Whether a camera manufacturer provides the relevant opcode in their files has nothing to do with Adobe, but if they do it's in the specified format. And once the data is there any software can make use of it, it just seems the one you use doesn't but it would be on them.

https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/products/photoshop/pdfs/dng_spec_1.4.0.0.pdf

Note that some camera manufacturers also provide built-in lens corrections in their proprietary RAWs too, and LR makes use of those as well if no detailed profile is available.

Lens correction data embedded in some RAWs may be sufficient for distortion correction but many programs cannot make use of it because the data format of the embedded corrections is proprietary and not open. In general, most lenses do not communicate any correction data. You may very well be correct about DJI embedding correction data in the raw but if they do, it is not made available to the general public and is usable only by certain software companies.

 

[Kilrah]

You seem to be stuck in your "companies are evil" mindset.

DJI uses DNG files.
DNG is an open, documented format.
The DNG format provides for lens correction data, which is defined in the spec along with the formula to interpret it.
DJI files contain correction data since some software can read and use it.

As such, anyone can read the correction data in DJI files and make use of it. If some software doesn't do it it's their problem/choice, they have everything they need to do it should they want to, noting is hidden or "only usable by certain companies". They just likely haven't had the desire/incentive/motivation/resources to put in the effort of developing the functionality of reading and making use of it.

 

[sar104]

Looks like I was mistaken - on closer inspection Affinity Photo doesn't apply a lens correction automatically and doesn't appear to read the correction data from the DNG file. Apple Photos, Aperture and Preview do apply the correction, presumably the one in the DNG but I don't know how to confirm that. DxO PhotoLab applies its own custom correction but won't read one from the DNG. Lightroom reads the correction from the DNG. Very confusing.

 

[simsurf]

I think you will find that you are wrong.

A colour look up table is called a CLUT!

A LUT can be for anything. Including sine cosine and log values...

So long as the info is available, in a supplied chart or as an embed in the file itself, the info can be extracted and used by any enabled software.

That’s my understanding. Certainly works for me in Lightroom.

..

LUT's are for video. There is no such thing for images.

 

[Inspirephil]

That question seems surprisingly difficult to find a definitive answer for. Some RAW processing software, such as DxO PhotoLab, clearly has custom lens files and lists supported camera/lens combinations. Others don't appear to do that. Some software opens DJI raw image files with the distortion corrected while other software doesn't. Is all the software that applies the correction simply reading the lens details from the EXIF and then using its own correction data, or is there basic correction data embedded in the raw image file? If they are using correction files that are in the software, then where do they get those from? DxO runs tests to construct theirs - do all the software makers do that?

Under Mac OS X, even Preview opens DJI raw files with correction applied, which suggests to me that the correction data (not just the lens identifier) has to be in the image file, but maybe not.

Thanks for the information.

 

[dfb]

That question seems surprisingly difficult to find a definitive answer for. Some RAW processing software, such as DxO PhotoLab, clearly has custom lens files and lists supported camera/lens combinations. Others don't appear to do that. Some software opens DJI raw image files with the distortion corrected while other software doesn't. Is all the software that applies the correction simply reading the lens details from the EXIF and then using its own correction data, or is there basic correction data embedded in the raw image file? If they are using correction files that are in the software, then where do they get those from? DxO runs tests to construct theirs - do all the software makers do that?

Under Mac OS X, even Preview opens DJI raw files with correction applied, which suggests to me that the correction data (not just the lens identifier) has to be in the image file, but maybe not.

I believe the manufacturer includes the lens correction in the raw file. I don't know when that started, but I read about it and I now have a new Sony camera, RX100, where Lightroom indicates that lens correction is built in. In other words, no need to download the specific camera profiles anymore. Color correction comes from the profile one selected in camera. I don't use the in camera settings, as they are applied to jpgs. That usually means for raw files, you manually try to match the picture to your memory when taking it or just make it look good.

Yes LUTs are video jargon for still PRESETS, because video has no raw option. Video can be shot with low contrast using dlog or hlg to prevent clipping detail when the scene has high contrast. MOST of the time, one should shoot video without color profiles. There will be a lot of work just fixing color and doing lens correction and more, for something that will ultimately look the same as using the default.

 

[dfb]

It's interesting isn't it? Is DJI instructing it's own software on it's own quads to wright correction data into the raw images that some but not all raw editor software can read? If they are, it would be to DJI's advantage to make that data public and accessible to all and keep all DJI pilots happy. Perhaps Adobe is saying NO to keep their very large piece of the editor market very large. All I know is that for various reasons, I do not like Adobe and try to use open source software where possible. Sometimes, it bites me though.

I don't use Darktable. I looked up features and it states that it uses Lensfun for lens correction. That might require a second step, or DT may allow LF to operate within it's process.

 

[PTBperegrine]

A very interesting thread, thanks guys!

 

[afarkas]

The lens profile is included in the RAW file and fir example lightroom applyes it automatically. However, im never happy with the result... So i apply a -8 value barrel distortion correction to all photos shot from M2P (+ the inbuild lens profile)

 

[brett8883]

LUT's are for video. There is no such thing for images.

Why do people keep saying that? A video is a series of photos. Each frame of a video is a raster image! All a LUT does is take a pixel, it reads it’s Hue Saturation, luminance, RBG info and matches that value against a table of values and finds a match.

The table then specify what the corresponding value of the output should be for that input. Then the editing program changes that pixel to match the instructions given by the LUT. It’s basically a recipe. There’s no difference between a video frame and a still raster image.

I think people must get hung up on the way raw files work. Don’t worry adobe figured that out so you don’t have to think about it. Asking the question of “do your manual edits in Lightroom happen before the raw file is rasterized and passed through the LUT or after?” Is a good question but doesn’t really matter.

Here’s how to import them into Lightroom

Btw the Look up Table adjustment layer has been in the main panel of photoshop probably since before I was born. It’s the icon that looks like an excel table you probably have seen a million times and never paid any attention to.



This is the video LUT for the Mavic 2 which is different.

Mavic2_Dlog-M_LUT.cube

drive.google.com

Btw the Look up Table adjustment layer has been in the main panel of photoshop probably since before I was born. It’s the icon that looks like an excel table you probably have seen a million times and never paid any attention to.

 

[simsurf]

Why do people keep saying that? A video is a series of photos. Each frame of a video is a raster image! All a LUT does is take a pixel, it reads it’s Hue Saturation, luminance, RBG info and matches that value against a table of values and finds a match.

The table then specify what the corresponding value of the output should be for that input. Then the editing program changes that pixel to match the instructions given by the LUT. It’s basically a recipe. There’s no difference between a video frame and a still raster image.

I think people must get hung up on the way raw files work. Don’t worry adobe figured that out so you don’t have to think about it. Asking the question of “do your manual edits in Lightroom happen before the raw file is rasterized and passed through the LUT or after?” Is a good question but doesn’t really matter.

Here’s how to import them into Lightroom

Btw the Look up Table adjustment layer has been in the main panel of photoshop probably since before I was born. It’s the icon that looks like an excel table you probably have seen a million times and never paid any attention to.



This is the video LUT for the Mavic 2 which is different.

Mavic2_Dlog-M_LUT.cube

drive.google.com

Btw the Look up Table adjustment layer has been in the main panel of photoshop probably since before I was born. It’s the icon that looks like an excel table you probably have seen a million times and never paid any attention to.
View attachment 71505

Because it's true. The mavic is not shooting RAW video. Just video with a flat colour profile. There is video processing occurring inside the mavic.

 

[brett8883]

Because it's true. The mavic is not shooting RAW video. Just video with a flat colour profile. There is video processing occurring inside the mavic.

Raw files can’t be “viewed” directly. They aren’t made of pixels that can be shown on a screen because they aren’t images they are recipes for a photo. That “processing” you are talking about that happens on the Mavic with video happens the moment you open a photo in Lightroom. The difference is you can make adjustments to the “recipe” after the fact in Lightroom. A LUT is just basically a preset list of adjustments. It’s a recipe for a recipe.

In Lightroom there are “profiles.” The main one is called “color” buts there’s “monochrome”, “natural,” etc. these are just LUTs. Camera Raw is able to translate those recipes into adjustments and incorporates them into the processing of the raw file.

Here is a .DNG

DJI_0027.DNG

drive.google.com

Here is the processed image with this LUT I shared earlier in this thread with no other adjustments what so ever. I probably would have made other tweaks but I didn’t here.



No LUT on left. LUT on right. If you think one is better than the other isn’t the my point. My point is LUTs can be used on .DNGs just like any other adjustment in Lightroom and can be powerful tools especially if you are doing a series of photographs that you want to have the same “look” or just to save time.

 

[brett8883]

Here is part of my collection of LUTs. LUTs - Google Drive

Any of them can be used for photos or video. Some of them are for the purpose of using an Adobe effect in another program, like dehaze. Some are meant to be combined with another LUT to apply the LUT to only a certain range and wouldn’t be used by themselves, like highpass.

 

[mharvey65]

LUT's are for video. There is no such thing for images.

Wrong.

So what is a camera profile if not a LUT?

I've spent 10 years in colour management. Trained in Switzerland by X-rite. I'd hope that I know a thing or two.

Michael

 

[rparkins]

Hello all. I'm hopeful to get some help/explanation for what's going on here. Thank you in advance.
The image below includes screen-shots of both the .dng (upper) and the .jpg (lower) from a M2P. They were combined into a single image for ease of comparison. The camera was set to record both raw & jpeg in a single shutter button push.
.
These photos were loaded into darktable (a raw image editor) & screen-shots taken before I made any adjustments. Any processing performed was done by darktable on it's own. The first thing you notice is that the raw image has some fairly bad barrel distortion that the jpeg does not. Then you notice that the raw image has a wider FOV than the jpeg. darktable reports the raw image with dimensions 5568 x 3648 and the jpeg as being 5472 x 3648 (which are the camera's specs).
.
The Microsoft Windows 10 viewer as well as some other viewer apps seem to be opening just the Reduced-resolution image (jpeg?) embedded in the raw file and do not show the increased FOV as shown in darktable. However, CyberLink Power Media Player opens the original .dng file and shows the barrel distortion & 'bonus' FOV and looks exactly like what darktable shows. Is the camera/software causing the distortion??
.
The raw file is almost six times the size of the jpeg so much more data is available to potentially yield better pictures but the distortion is unacceptable. Any help appreciated!

I had the same problem. Sent the aircraft back to DJI. It was under warranty. They replaced the camera and gimble at no charge. It took two weeks through.

 

[gnirtS]

Under Mac OS X, even Preview opens DJI raw files with correction applied, which suggests to me that the correction data (not just the lens identifier) has to be in the image file, but maybe not.

It is but not all DNG/raw editors are created equally. Some dont fully implement the features of DNG (despite it being open source and a public standard). Thats why some of the lesser editors lack lens correction and so on - they simply dont know how to access it in the file to apply.

Any fully compliant DNG editor will see and apply all that.