THE RULES!!

[787steve]

I am a newbie here, and I have been diligently searching for a good explanation of the rules. I see a lot of questionable videos with comments from people as to the legality of the operation. They all state what the rules are, or are not. Often vehemently. But many times they contradict each other. They have opposing positions, but both sides strongly believe they are right.

I am primarily going to address altitude, VLOS, and flying within proximity to an airport, as that is where I see the most confusion. I am going to write what I understand the law to be in regard to the type of flying I do, hobbyist. I can't wait to be picked apart by the experienced heads here. So take notes, and throw straight.

1. I believe my hobbyist operation comes under SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT.
2. Section 336 says the FAA may not make any regulations regarding my aircraft if, among other things:
a. It is operated within the safety guidelines of a nationwide community based organization.
The only such organization I know anything about is the AMA. Is there another one which qualifies?
If not, I will get back to their safety code later.
d. It must not interfere with and must give way to manned aircraft.
e. If within 5 miles of an airport, I must give them prior notice.
f. It goes on to say that even though they cannot pass regs on me nothing here keeps them from coming after me if I endanger the safety of the national airspace.
g. It goes on to define a model aircraft under this statute as one "flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft; and (3) flown for hobby or recreational purposes."

The safety code of the AMA adds:
Section A:
a. Cannot operate in a careless or reckless manner.
b. Not fly above 400' AGL within 3 miles of an airport without notifying the tower.
Section B.
a. Don't fly directly over people, vehicles, etc. And not endanger life or property of others.
b. With exception of Takeoff and Landing not get within 25' of persons.
c. Maintain control and keep VLOS with no aids other than my glasses

So, to me, I will avoid airplanes, and airports, and people. I will keep VLOS. That means vertically and horizontally. ( That seems to be a big item in this board) It doesn't look like VFR clear of clouds statutes apply, but I will not fly near clouds, as I could interfere with an IFR flight exiting the clouds. And as anyone could see, I cannot operate in clouds or fog, as that would definitely violate the VLOS requirement. BTW, fog is just a type of cloud. And the big catch all; I will operate safely.

That about sums up the regs as I understand them. If you have corrections, please do not just say what you believe. Reference a link to the document. Here are links to the docs which I used:
https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/Sec_331_336_UAS.pdf
Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code

Ok, I am braced. Fire away. And, as always,
Fly safely, legally, and enjoyably.

 

[lightbg]

DJI built a beautiful and capable ship which can far exceed any of the above guidelines. That being said, does it mean we have to? I have absolutely no stats to back this statement up, but speaking as an old fart who worked hard for everything I have I am not willing to lose it all for one liability claim if my ship drops on a child and/or causes harm to someone/something because I didn't see it coming. I'm guessing a lot of younger pilots don't have these concerns since they may be students, or living at home. Even though I am a member of the AMA and am covered by their liability insurance I still fly very conservatively. Can pilot error happen? Sure. Can malfunctions occur? Yes. But if my Mavic fails because it threw a prop that shattered ( and in this cold weather I found out after brushing a twig I didn't see and when I landed that prop looked like Swiss Cheese and another was missing the last 1/2" on one side) and wasn't my fault the damage could still be severe. I didn't make it to middle age by being dumb, and I'm not going to be homeless by being stupid. Following these rules minimizes but doesn't eliminate all hazards, but I feel more comfortable using these guidelines and lets me enjoy flight instead of holding my breath to see if I'm gonna make it home.

Off the soapbox.

Jake

 

[787steve]

I couldn't agree more.

 

[DeeCee]

Ditto

 

[Robert Mitchell]

I am a newbie here, and I have been diligently searching for a good explanation of the rules. I see a lot of questionable videos with comments from people as to the legality of the operation. They all state what the rules are, or are not. Often vehemently. But many times they contradict each other. They have opposing positions, but both sides strongly believe they are right.

I am primarily going to address altitude, VLOS, and flying within proximity to an airport, as that is where I see the most confusion. I am going to write what I understand the law to be in regard to the type of flying I do, hobbyist. I can't wait to be picked apart by the experienced heads here. So take notes, and throw straight.

1. I believe my hobbyist operation comes under SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT.
2. Section 336 says the FAA may not make any regulations regarding my aircraft if, among other things:
a. It is operated within the safety guidelines of a nationwide community based organization.
The only such organization I know anything about is the AMA. Is there another one which qualifies?
If not, I will get back to their safety code later.
d. It must not interfere with and must give way to manned aircraft.
e. If within 5 miles of an airport, I must give them prior notice.
f. It goes on to say that even though they cannot pass regs on me nothing here keeps them from coming after me if I endanger the safety of the national airspace.
g. It goes on to define a model aircraft under this statute as one "flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft; and (3) flown for hobby or recreational purposes."

The safety code of the AMA adds:
Section A:
a. Cannot operate in a careless or reckless manner.
b. Not fly above 400' AGL within 3 miles of an airport without notifying the tower.
Section B.
a. Don't fly directly over people, vehicles, etc. And not endanger life or property of others.
b. With exception of Takeoff and Landing not get within 25' of persons.
c. Maintain control and keep VLOS with no aids other than my glasses

So, to me, I will avoid airplanes, and airports, and people. I will keep VLOS. That means vertically and horizontally. ( That seems to be a big item in this board) It doesn't look like VFR clear of clouds statutes apply, but I will not fly near clouds, as I could interfere with an IFR flight exiting the clouds. And as anyone could see, I cannot operate in clouds or fog, as that would definitely violate the VLOS requirement. BTW, fog is just a type of cloud. And the big catch all; I will operate safely.

That about sums up the regs as I understand them. If you have corrections, please do not just say what you believe. Reference a link to the document. Here are links to the docs which I used:
https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/Sec_331_336_UAS.pdf
Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code

Ok, I am braced. Fire away. And, as always,
Fly safely, legally, and enjoyably.

Kudos.

You just demonstrated with this one post, that you know more than most will ever know.

 

[locoman]

With age comes wisdom. Well said Jake.

 

[shire]

100% agreement.
While I was waiting for my Mavic to be delivered, I read the “rules”, downloaded and read the DJI manuals and watched hours of videos.
I’m fascinated by the apparent disregard for the VLOS regulation. The number of “Look how far I can fly my Mavic” videos and posts, is staggering.
Have I missed something here? Unless their eyesight is way better than mine, VLOS is something to be disregarded. It sometimes takes only one incident to impact everyone in this community. The FAA regs aren’t a suggestion.
End of rant.

 

[frank candor]

I am a newbie here, and I have been diligently searching for a good explanation of the rules. I see a lot of questionable videos with comments from people as to the legality of the operation. They all state what the rules are, or are not. Often vehemently. But many times they contradict each other. They have opposing positions, but both sides strongly believe they are right.

I am primarily going to address altitude, VLOS, and flying within proximity to an airport, as that is where I see the most confusion. I am going to write what I understand the law to be in regard to the type of flying I do, hobbyist. I can't wait to be picked apart by the experienced heads here. So take notes, and throw straight.

1. I believe my hobbyist operation comes under SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT.
2. Section 336 says the FAA may not make any regulations regarding my aircraft if, among other things:
a. It is operated within the safety guidelines of a nationwide community based organization.
The only such organization I know anything about is the AMA. Is there another one which qualifies?
If not, I will get back to their safety code later.
d. It must not interfere with and must give way to manned aircraft.
e. If within 5 miles of an airport, I must give them prior notice.
f. It goes on to say that even though they cannot pass regs on me nothing here keeps them from coming after me if I endanger the safety of the national airspace.
g. It goes on to define a model aircraft under this statute as one "flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft; and (3) flown for hobby or recreational purposes."

The safety code of the AMA adds:
Section A:
a. Cannot operate in a careless or reckless manner.
b. Not fly above 400' AGL within 3 miles of an airport without notifying the tower.
Section B.
a. Don't fly directly over people, vehicles, etc. And not endanger life or property of others.
b. With exception of Takeoff and Landing not get within 25' of persons.
c. Maintain control and keep VLOS with no aids other than my glasses

So, to me, I will avoid airplanes, and airports, and people. I will keep VLOS. That means vertically and horizontally. ( That seems to be a big item in this board) It doesn't look like VFR clear of clouds statutes apply, but I will not fly near clouds, as I could interfere with an IFR flight exiting the clouds. And as anyone could see, I cannot operate in clouds or fog, as that would definitely violate the VLOS requirement. BTW, fog is just a type of cloud. And the big catch all; I will operate safely.

That about sums up the regs as I understand them. If you have corrections, please do not just say what you believe. Reference a link to the document. Here are links to the docs which I used:
https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/Sec_331_336_UAS.pdf
Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code

Ok, I am braced. Fire away. And, as always,
Fly safely, legally, and enjoyably.

What about keeping the aircraft up to date on all firmware, software, wetware, hardware?

 

[SGM]

After a year of reading discussions about BVLOS, the operators who fly as far and/or high as possible, buying add-ons to extend radio range and then crying when they loose the MP over the ocean or other side of a mountain, and the many pages of threads discussing VLOS, the question in my mind regarding rules- are you technically in violation any time you fly out of line of site, yes.
So when an operator states he or she NEVER violates that rule, I find it hard to believe, if you're flying around a water tower shooting footage and the drone flies behind the tower you have lost VLOS; if there is a single tree between you and your drone, (you know, the one your standing under or behind trying to shade your screen), you have lost VLOS. If you fly out 500 yards have it in sight and glance down at your monitor the look up and have to scan to find your quad, you temporarily lost VLOS.

It's going to happen, it's unavoidable and you will at sometime lose VLOS , the difference is flying responsibly and not ones deliberate disregard for the current laws.

Consciously fly responsibly under the current laws, practice practice practice and know what you're going to do when something happens.

lightbg great statement and yes, age and wisdom play a big part.

I guess my whole point to this long winded statement is don't get soo wrapped up in the "letter of the law" you fly in practice mode just to be safe and legal.

 

[787steve]

What about keeping the aircraft up to date on all firmware, software, wetware, hardware?

I was concentrating on altitudes, and VLOS, and airports because I have seen so many contradictory opinions on those. Yes, there are other issues as well. I will let others address them if they desire.

 

[Billco]

I’m a bit confused.
I have an App that indicates I can not fly within 5 miles of an airport. The OP shows information stating 3 miles. I’m in CA if that matters.
Also... I’m curious. Do you guys actually pick up the phone and call the airport to let them know you plan to fly your drone today? What is their typical response? ‘Okay, have fun” don’t hit any of our planes”. I can’t imagine how this process works.
Please let me know what is actually happening in this regard.
Thanks!

 

[rfc]

What about keeping the aircraft up to date on all firmware, software, wetware, hardware?

That may not be the safest way to fly with DJI hardware/software/firmware. As a matter of fact, I'd go so far to say (based on a lot of reading), that the safest combination of the above is the most stable. That doesn't mean the latest.

 

[SkyIScrape]

Do you need to have your FAA Part 107 to become a member of a local AMA club?

 

[lightbg]

Do you need to have your FAA Part 107 to become a member of a local AMA club?

No......just $75.00 USD. most clubs will treat you as a student pilot and have you buddy with an established member until you satisfy them that you can actually fly.
In my area most clubs are favoring fixed wing or heli drivers....they’re not that enamored with quad pilots even though the national board is enthusiastic about quad racing.
YMMV

Jake

 

[Robert Mitchell]

I’m a bit confused.
I have an App that indicates I can not fly within 5 miles of an airport. The OP shows information stating 3 miles. I’m in CA if that matters.
Also... I’m curious. Do you guys actually pick up the phone and call the airport to let them know you plan to fly your drone today? What is their typical response? ‘Okay, have fun” don’t hit any of our planes”. I can’t imagine how this process works.
Please let me know what is actually happening in this regard.
Thanks!

The notification requirement is within 5 miles. He was referring to AMA requirement not to exceed 400 ft within three miles. This is nationwide, nothing to do with your state.

Yes, by law you are required to actually pick up the phone and call the airport. They will usually say "Thanks, and have a good day".

The OP has compiled a very comprehensive list of existing laws. We would all do well to learn it.

 

[Robert Mitchell]

Do you need to have your FAA Part 107 to become a member of a local AMA club?

No.

Also, you can simply go online and register without ever having to join a local club.

 

[787steve]

I’m a bit confused.
I have an App that indicates I can not fly within 5 miles of an airport. The OP shows information stating 3 miles. I’m in CA if that matters.
Also... I’m curious. Do you guys actually pick up the phone and call the airport to let them know you plan to fly your drone today? What is their typical response? ‘Okay, have fun” don’t hit any of our planes”. I can’t imagine how this process works.
Please let me know what is actually happening in this regard.
Thanks!

Sec 336 gives the 5 mile radius. AMA safety guide says 3 miles. So I presume we are limited by the more restrictive 5 mile law. If you do that, you satisfy both documents. If you go to the AMA 3 mile limit, you have violated the 5 mile law. So far I have been able to avoid the 5 mile radius, so I don't know how difficult contacting them by phone may be.

 

[787steve]

That may not be the safest way to fly with DJI hardware/software/firmware. As a matter of fact, I'd go so far to say (based on a lot of reading), that the safest combination of the above is the most stable. That doesn't mean the latest.

I have been searching for the documentation that confirms my understanding that you have to "be ABLE to see", not that you have to operate by constantly looking at the drone. Your post prompted me to continue that search, and I think I just found it.
At http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.16,Ch1,Sec2
it states
"QQ. Visual Line of Sight (VLOS). Means that any flightcrew member (i.e., remote PIC, the person manipulating the controls, and visual observer, if used) is capable of seeing the aircraft with vision unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, spectacles or contact lenses in order to know the UA’s location, determine the UA’s attitude, altitude, and direction of flight, observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards, and determine that the UA does not endanger the life or property of another."

It clearly says that the operator "is capable of seeing the aircraft". Not that he cannot take his eyes off of it. But then it goes on to say you should be able to determine attitude, direction of flight, etc. Clearly you can determine those more easily by reference to the display. But the display will not help you observe the airspace for traffic, etc.

I have seen posts where people question why we need to keep it in line of sight and not simply use the display or FPV goggles. The most obvious answer to that is because the camera only looks forward, and almost every manned aircraft you would possibly come in conflict with could easily be overtaking you from a side, or aft angle.

 

[dronerdave]

.... when an operator states he or she NEVER violates that rule, I find it hard to believe, if you're flying around a water tower shooting footage and the drone flies behind the tower you have lost VLOS; if there is a single tree between you and your drone, (you know, the one your standing under or behind trying to shade your screen), you have lost VLOS. If you fly out 500 yards have it in sight and glance down at your monitor the look up and have to scan to find your quad, you temporarily lost VLOS.

It's going to happen, it's unavoidable and you will at sometime lose VLOS , the difference is flying responsibly and not ones deliberate disregard for the current laws.

Consciously fly responsibly under the current laws, practice practice practice and know what you're going to do when something happens.

lightbg great statement and yes, age and wisdom play a big part.

I guess my whole point to this long winded statement is don't get soo wrapped up in the "letter of the law" you fly in practice mode just to be safe and legal.

Kind of how I've looked at this. So far I thought I've been using a common sense approach (or so I thought) by having a spotter to help find the drone after I've looked down doing a shoot, staying w/i a mile of my LZ, and staying below 400' AGL.

I try to stay clear of people but how far is it required? I read "don't fly over people" (common sense) but have seen where a UAV spins out of control and travels off course further than I ever would have suspected. I've lost control of my Mavic a couple of times and don't want to be responsible in injuring persons or property but even if I'm a ways from people, if I have no control what can I do? It's not deliberate. Seems to me I'm in violation almost every time I fly plus as mentioned I'm looking at a video screen more than the quad itself. I'm constantly checking all my instruments during flight and always figured that was a safety thing. Bad move? I fly with strobes all over the thing to help me re-establish VLOS and in the hope that that a low level full sized aircraft has as much of a chance seeing my Mavic when they drop down well below the 400' limit we're required to fly in. One of my bosses said this once, don't ask for more specific regulations, you might not get what you want. Just do your job in a safe manner according to the general rules at hand and don't do something stupid.

 

[dronerdave]

I have been searching for the documentation that confirms my understanding that you have to "be ABLE to see", not that you have to operate by constantly looking at the drone. Your post prompted me to continue that search, and I think I just found it.
At http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.16,Ch1,Sec2
it states
"QQ. Visual Line of Sight (VLOS). Means that any flightcrew member (i.e., remote PIC, the person manipulating the controls, and visual observer, if used) is capable of seeing the aircraft with vision unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, spectacles or contact lenses in order to know the UA’s location, determine the UA’s attitude, altitude, and direction of flight, observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards, and determine that the UA does not endanger the life or property of another."

It clearly says that the operator "is capable of seeing the aircraft". Not that he cannot take his eyes off of it. But then it goes on to say you should be able to determine attitude, direction of flight, etc. Clearly you can determine those more easily by reference to the display. But the display will not help you observe the airspace for traffic, etc.

I have seen posts where people question why we need to keep it in line of sight and not simply use the display or FPV goggles. The most obvious answer to that is because the camera only looks forward, and almost every manned aircraft you would possibly come in conflict with could easily be overtaking you from a side, or aft angle.

Interesting. Being a newbie I can't tell the difference between 300 and 350 above ground level especially a few thousand feet out. I can however get a general idea where it is by looking at it. Funny you would think having true stats at hand of where you are flying would require you to pay attention to your instruments as well as visual line of site.