THE RULES!!

[Sailorsteve]

Your boss must have been talking to my Father - he used to tell me pretty much the same thing.
It was good advice 40 years ago, and it's good advice now!

 

[lightbg]

Your boss must have been talking to my Father - he used to tell me pretty much the same thing.
It was good advice 40 years ago, and it's good advice now!

Wisdom is never outdated.

This should be nominated for Thread of the Year.....lots of intelligent commentary going on.

Jake

 

[787steve]

Kind of how I've looked at this. So far I thought I've been using a common sense approach (or so I thought) by having a spotter to help find the drone after I've looked down doing a shoot, staying w/i a mile of my LZ, and staying below 400' AGL.

I try to stay clear of people but how far is it required? I read "don't fly over people" (common sense) but have seen where a UAV spins out of control and travels off course further than I ever would have suspected. I've lost control of my Mavic a couple of times and don't want to be responsible in injuring persons or property but even if I'm a ways from people, if I have no control what can I do? It's not deliberate. Seems to me I'm in violation almost every time I fly plus as mentioned I'm looking at a video screen more than the quad itself. I'm constantly checking all my instruments during flight and always figured that was a safety thing. Bad move? I fly with strobes all over the thing to help me re-establish VLOS and in the hope that that a low level full sized aircraft has as much of a chance seeing my Mavic when they drop down well below the 400' limit we're required to fly in. One of my bosses said this once, don't ask for more specific regulations, you might not get what you want. Just do your job in a safe manner according to the general rules at hand and don't do something stupid.

SGM, It sounds like you are going above and beyond in trying to fly legally, and more importantly, safely. I congratulate you on your maturity, and professionalism.

Fear not. You are not responsible for what an aircraft does when out of control. Unless (and it is a BIG UNLESS) you caused it to go out of control. For instance, if you flew it far from you and lost signal. I have seen many vids here where that happened.

Many years ago, I had a squadron mate flying a legal low level flight at 420kts GS (approx 483 mph) and 500'. He hit a turkey buzzard. The bird came through the front right portion of his canopy., and hit him square in the face. His helmet looked quite similar to the avatar I use. He was semi conscious, at low altitude and high speed. He didn't know if he had a mid-air, hit the ground or what. He had just enough consciousness left to know that something very bad had happened at low altitude and high speed. He ejected. The aircraft immediately violated the low floor of the VR route. It then proceeded to land, without clearance, on private property at high speed. (Generally referred to as a crash), and exploded. Basically, it chalked up a lot of violations in very little time. The accident board did not fault the pilot for ejecting, as he didn't know if he was about to be part of such a crash. The aircraft was no longer under his control, so he was not responsible for the actions the airplane took. And, prior to the event, he was operating totally legally.

If anything ever did happen, you would simply have to tell what you did. My squadron mate, had to do that before the accident board. He did. They basically said "Bad luck. Good job. Keep up the good work". I told all my students, in military, and airline ops that if something bad happens and you end up the subject of a safety investigation, you will be asked if you followed proper procedures. You want to answer that question wit a simple "Yes". You don't want to start that answer with "Well, ....". If you do, it will not end "Well." Keep up the good work,SGM.

 

[SGM]

Kind of how I've looked at this. So far I thought I've been using a common sense approach (or so I thought) by having a spotter to help find the drone after I've looked down doing a shoot, staying w/i a mile of my LZ, and staying below 400' AGL.

I try to stay clear of people but how far is it required? I read "don't fly over people" (common sense) but have seen where a UAV spins out of control and travels off course further than I ever would have suspected. I've lost control of my Mavic a couple of times and don't want to be responsible in injuring persons or property but even if I'm a ways from people, if I have no control what can I do? It's not deliberate. Seems to me I'm in violation almost every time I fly plus as mentioned I'm looking at a video screen more than the quad itself. I'm constantly checking all my instruments during flight and always figured that was a safety thing. Bad move? I fly with strobes all over the thing to help me re-establish VLOS and in the hope that that a low level full sized aircraft has as much of a chance seeing my Mavic when they drop down well below the 400' limit we're required to fly in. One of my bosses said this once, don't ask for more specific regulations, you might not get what you want. Just do your job in a safe manner according to the general rules at hand and don't do something stupid.

I realize this topic got a little off track, but I have come to realize too many good, qualified operators have gotten so wrapped up in the laws one is constantly worried about violations. After 35 years of military policies that blanketed the entire force when in actuality they applied to only a small portion or single situation, some of which I helped write. My point, we all know the rules and laws but common sense must prevail.
I fly Litchi autonomous much of the time, I just as you constantly monitor the screen as well as the sky. Bottom line - is there malicious intent or blatant disregard for the rules, no.
I'm good with my decisions and fly on.

 

[Colorado_scott]

Think we all know the answer; are current / future ‘rules’ favoring Drone flying or becoming more restrictive? Looking out 2-3-4 years where will this hobby be? I don’t see it getting better. Responsible drone flying will help the hobby but it’s no match for the few that push the limits and hurt the hobby.

 

[SGM]

Thank you 787steve, well said!

Its funny Colorado_Scott, , I have wondered the same thing, if for no other reason because this is a sport I have come to love and don't want to loose.
The few always outnumber the many; I am between the long beaten discussion relating drones to cars and the inevitable overreach by the government- government wins. What's funny is now I am seeing where 107 pilots are blaming the drone enthusiast for ruining the industry and the irresponsible flyer only pops up when it hits the news (107s seem to forget where they came from).
I also see the industry (being the American way) trying to dominate and manipulate the laws and rules for personal/corporate gain sitting on boards for the FAA moving forward and then I read about the latest software to dominate the industry being developed by the very same companies helping to write the rules...hmmm and who's software will we be using a couple years from now in order to fly?

I know WAY DEEP and now I'm off my soap box lol

 

[SGM]

Sorry 787steve for misreading the auther of you're story, it definitely made the point!

I finally realized what I was looking at in your pic and have to ask, disregard if it's not a proper question.

 

[ProPilot]

I realize this topic got a little off track, but I have come to realize too many good, qualified operators have gotten so wrapped up in the laws one is constantly worried about violations. After 35 years of military policies that blanketed the entire force when in actuality they applied to only a small portion or single situation, some of which I helped write. My point, we all know the rules and laws but common sense must prevail.
I fly Litchi autonomous much of the time, I just as you constantly monitor the screen as well as the sky. Bottom line - is there malicious intent or blatant disregard for the rules, no.
I'm good with my decisions and fly on.

As a full time pilot, I do not worry about drone pilots being "wrapped up in the laws" and " worrying about violations". If the rules are as posted in this thread, they seem extremely simple to understand and follow. Especially when compared to the rules I have to deal with. The ones who concern me are the ones who take a position that their "common sense" is better than the laws. I am not allowed to use the common sense defense. Every flight, I ask myself two questions. Is it safe, and is it legal. They both have to be satisfied. We have seen situations that were legal, but obviously unsafe. Think of JFK Jr. Totally legal and extremely predictable fatal crash. You sound old enough that I will trust that you use the law and common sense. But I have seen enough comments on here about how high they have gone, or flying beyond their visual acuity range, and especially all the geniuses who "Know" that a drone can't bring down an airplane. Please!

I am afraid common sense in this community isn't as common as I would like it to be for people who can launch a few pounds of FOD into the sky for me to hit at speed.

 

[787steve]

Sorry 787steve for misreading the auther of you're story, it definitely made the point!

I finally realized what I was looking at in your pic and have to ask, disregard if it's not a proper question.

Sorry, I didn't get the question. Fire away. No worries

 

[SGM]

The helmet has an obvious unique paint job on it.

 

[SGM]

As a full time pilot, I do not worry about drone pilots being "wrapped up in the laws" and " worrying about violations". If the rules are as posted in this thread, they seem extremely simple to understand and follow. Especially when compared to the rules I have to deal with. The ones who concern me are the ones who take a position that their "common sense" is better than the laws. I am not allowed to use the common sense defense. Every flight, I ask myself two questions. Is it safe, and is it legal. They both have to be satisfied. We have seen situations that were legal, but obviously unsafe. Think of JFK Jr. Totally legal and extremely predictable fatal crash. You sound old enough that I will trust that you use the law and common sense. But I have seen enough comments on here about how high they have gone, or flying beyond their visual acuity range, and especially all the geniuses who "Know" that a drone can't bring down an airplane. Please!

I am afraid common sense in this community isn't as common as I would like it to be for people who can launch a few pounds of FOD into the sky for me to hit at speed.

There is a big difference in knowing and understanding the laws, being able to apply their knowledge to practical application and being so wrapped up as I stated in the beginning -they are afraid to fly out of beginner mode, tell me the operator being so worried about their flying, safety and the laws wont make a mistake because that is all they are thinking of when they go out. I've seen it in other situations and see know difference here. I will not engage or debate about FOD hitting a A/C at speed, the debate is well covered in many other threads, as well as 787steve making a great point with his story.

Bottom line- for the mature, responsible operator who knows the laws, rules, regulations surrounding drone UAV flight and who have the maturity and common sense to apply safety to their flight, does not need to get so "wrapped up" they are afraid to pull pitch any more than a driver of a car once they have learned-cant do anything about the mental midgets who own a drone . safe and good UAV flying whether hobbyist or commercial is achieved through inculcation starting from the first flight. I 100% agree with the common sense in this community but the common sense and safety does not start for stop with the commercial community and while the 107 test gives the UAV operator more knowledge for his or her toolbox, flying within the laws and safely is 100% on the operator.

 

[SGM]

ProPilot I need to apologize for the rant if it was directed at you. You made a very good point about the rules/laws being extremely simple and having flown (as a crew member) I very much respected the pilots "by the checklist" mentality on every move and decision they made.
Thanks

 

[Colorado_scott]

I agree with all above points. What concerns me is the low-end of the spectrum. Perhaps most that fly DJI products are not pushing the limits and finding isolated places to fly, where no one hassles them. However, there are 100's (guess, but not far off) of low cost drones that, when flown irresponsibly, have the same effect as any drone being flown, and it gives the industry a biased view of the sport. I go back and forth every say, Mavic or not - as they are neat. But I still have no decent application for the video I take - and don't want to sit and edit video for an hour only to post it on YouTube for my family to see. So, I sit on the sidelines, reading about others adventures and issues. I've love to see a 30 minute Spark come out - I'd take that kayaking on a lake any day - fishing video would be cool (for me), but 15 minute flight time in CO isn't going to cut it. Perhaps the next Mavic will have 35 min flight time, giving me a solid 30 at 5000 feet. (hoping)

 

[787steve]

The helmet has an obvious unique paint job on it.

Ah. That isn't a paint job. It is bird guts. Here is
It IS NOT the helmet of my friend who had to eject after a bird strike, but the damage is almost identical.

The (almost) humorous part of his story is that he was the instructor pilot in the rear seat of a TA-4 similar to one in the picture.


The bird entered through the quarter panel. That is the small triangular section above the number 3 on the nose. It went right past the student and hit the instructor smack in his face. The instructor didn't know what happened. He couldn't tell if they had hit the ground, or had a midair, or what. He didn't even know if the student had survived whatever had happened. So he ejected.
The student saw the bird at the last second. He knew he had a bird strike. He was just starting to go through his procedure and suddenly he was blasted out of the AC. All we lost was an airplane.

 

[lightbg]

Ah. That isn't a paint job. It is bird guts. Here is
It IS NOT the helmet of my friend who had to eject after a bird strike, but the damage is almost identical.

View attachment 28585View attachment 28584 View attachment 28585 The (almost) humorous part of his story is that he was the instructor pilot in the rear seat of a TA-4 similar to one in the picture.
View attachment 28584

The bird entered through the quarter panel. That is the small triangular section above the number 3 on the nose. It went right past the student and hit the instructor smack in his face. The instructor didn't know what happened. He couldn't tell if they had hit the ground, or had a midair, or what. He didn't even know if the student had survived whatever had happened. So he ejected.
The student saw the bird at the last second. He knew he had a bird strike. He was just starting to go through his procedure and suddenly he was blasted out of the AC. All we lost was an airplane.

Wow! I'm speechless.

Jake

 

[SGM]

That is totally unbelievable, I'm just glad the two pilots were ok! but definitely brings the point home! Thanks for sharing that with everyone.
Nothing but respect.

 

[SGM]

I agree with all above points. What concerns me is the low-end of the spectrum. Perhaps most that fly DJI products are not pushing the limits and finding isolated places to fly, where no one hassles them. However, there are 100's (guess, but not far off) of low cost drones that, when flown irresponsibly, have the same effect as any drone being flown, and it gives the industry a biased view of the sport. I go back and forth every say, Mavic or not - as they are neat. But I still have no decent application for the video I take - and don't want to sit and edit video for an hour only to post it on YouTube for my family to see. So, I sit on the sidelines, reading about others adventures and issues. I've love to see a 30 minute Spark come out - I'd take that kayaking on a lake any day - fishing video would be cool (for me), but 15 minute flight time in CO isn't going to cut it. Perhaps the next Mavic will have 35 min flight time, giving me a solid 30 at 5000 feet. (hoping)

Believe me when I say I understand and did the same thing for some time!, for me it was as simple in the end since I had the choice of sharing a seat with my a** and making he wife want to commit murder or finding something to get me out after retirement. From there I fell in love with it from the technical to the flying and even the post production. since I don't fly commercially and cant ask for money, I fly and gift the videos to people and organizations, mostly historical. So for me it was a good thing. I would say it is worth it and for every responsible, MATURE drone operator out there, it only helps all of us. I don't know anything about a Spark but I do know the MP folds small enough to take anywhere and have even had it on the lake with the family myself, a great quad between the Spark and Phantom.
As far as editing, there are a lot of easy editors out there not just adobe Premier, I started on windows movie maker and have stayed with Wondershare Filmora. trust me its addictive.

Understand what you say about the flight time especially if you don't want to take extra batteries, but the first time your somewhere legal and capture video you wouldn't have gotten from the ground or maybe some FPV you'll be hooked!
I'm sure you have found some great people on this site as well as the ones creating drama (like me tonight) who show this is a great sport! Best of luck in your decision.

 

[SGM]

Ah. That isn't a paint job. It is bird guts. Here is
It IS NOT the helmet of my friend who had to eject after a bird strike, but the damage is almost identical.

View attachment 28585View attachment 28584 View attachment 28585 The (almost) humorous part of his story is that he was the instructor pilot in the rear seat of a TA-4 similar to one in the picture.
View attachment 28584

The bird entered through the quarter panel. That is the small triangular section above the number 3 on the nose. It went right past the student and hit the instructor smack in his face. The instructor didn't know what happened. He couldn't tell if they had hit the ground, or had a midair, or what. He didn't even know if the student had survived whatever had happened. So he ejected.
The student saw the bird at the last second. He knew he had a bird strike. He was just starting to go through his procedure and suddenly he was blasted out of the AC. All we lost was an airplane.

I'm still blown away 787steve! just had to say that again before closing

 

[787steve]

Wow! I'm speechless.

Jake

So was he!

 

[dronerdave]

So I still didn't really get my answer or I'm not seeing it. Today I flew about 200 feet (W/I VLOS) away from a roadway that has light traffic.

If I lose control of my little craft and it goes spinning off and hits a car am I in violation? I know I can be sued for an incident but what does the (FAA) law say?

If I'm out 4000 feet at 100' above ground level, am I in violation even though I can see my strobes? Sometimes looking down at the screen, it takes some sky scanning to find it again. This has also happened when I was out less than 1000 feet.