THE RULES!!

geofox784 · Jan 13, 2018

I wrote an in depth analysis of this here. It should explain everything. The FAA's 400' "rule" is not a rule, but a guideline. Here's why:

51 Drones · Jan 13, 2018

Everything in this video was confirmed by 2 Drone Attorneys. (Yep, there is such a thing!)

787steve · Jan 13, 2018

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to challenge the 400' "rule". It seems to be almost universally accepted. But I can only find one thing in the regs pertaining to it. The AMA safety guidelines say not to exceed 400' within 3 miles of an airport, without notifying the tower. The FAA does recommend 400' in it's guidelines, which are certainly wise to heed. But can someone show me an actual law that refers to the 400' number.
I am specifically looking for documentation on this limit. Certainly we are not to endanger the airspace, and avoid aircraft, but this thread is intended purely to address "The Rules".

terradriller · Jan 13, 2018

lightbg said:
DJI built a beautiful and capable ship which can far exceed any of the above guidelines. That being said, does it mean we have to? I have absolutely no stats to back this statement up, but speaking as an old fart who worked hard for everything I have I am not willing to lose it all for one liability claim if my ship drops on a child and/or causes harm to someone/something because I didn't see it coming. I'm guessing a lot of younger pilots don't have these concerns since they may be students, or living at home. Even though I am a member of the AMA and am covered by their liability insurance I still fly very conservatively. Can pilot error happen? Sure. Can malfunctions occur? Yes. But if my Mavic fails because it threw a prop that shattered ( and in this cold weather I found out after brushing a twig I didn't see and when I landed that prop looked like Swiss Cheese and another was missing the last 1/2" on one side) and wasn't my fault the damage could still be severe. I didn't make it to middle age by being dumb, and I'm not going to be homeless by being stupid. Following these rules minimizes but doesn't eliminate all hazards, but I feel more comfortable using these guidelines and lets me enjoy flight instead of holding my breath to see if I'm gonna make it home.

Off the soapbox.

Jake

Well said Jake...

ScubaBob · Jan 13, 2018

787steve said:
I am a newbie here, and I have been diligently searching for a good explanation of the rules. I see a lot of questionable videos with comments from people as to the legality of the operation. They all state what the rules are, or are not. Often vehemently. But many times they contradict each other. They have opposing positions, but both sides strongly believe they are right.

I am primarily going to address altitude, VLOS, and flying within proximity to an airport, as that is where I see the most confusion. I am going to write what I understand the law to be in regard to the type of flying I do, hobbyist. I can't wait to be picked apart by the experienced heads here. So take notes, and throw straight.

1. I believe my hobbyist operation comes under SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT.
2. Section 336 says the FAA may not make any regulations regarding my aircraft if, among other things:
a. It is operated within the safety guidelines of a nationwide community based organization.
The only such organization I know anything about is the AMA. Is there another one which qualifies?
If not, I will get back to their safety code later.
d. It must not interfere with and must give way to manned aircraft.
e. If within 5 miles of an airport, I must give them prior notice.
f. It goes on to say that even though they cannot pass regs on me nothing here keeps them from coming after me if I endanger the safety of the national airspace.
g. It goes on to define a model aircraft under this statute as one "flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft; and (3) flown for hobby or recreational purposes."

The safety code of the AMA adds:
Section A:
a. Cannot operate in a careless or reckless manner.
b. Not fly above 400' AGL within 3 miles of an airport without notifying the tower.
Section B.
a. Don't fly directly over people, vehicles, etc. And not endanger life or property of others.
b. With exception of Takeoff and Landing not get within 25' of persons.
c. Maintain control and keep VLOS with no aids other than my glasses

So, to me, I will avoid airplanes, and airports, and people. I will keep VLOS. That means vertically and horizontally. ( That seems to be a big item in this board) It doesn't look like VFR clear of clouds statutes apply, but I will not fly near clouds, as I could interfere with an IFR flight exiting the clouds. And as anyone could see, I cannot operate in clouds or fog, as that would definitely violate the VLOS requirement. BTW, fog is just a type of cloud. And the big catch all; I will operate safely.

That about sums up the regs as I understand them. If you have corrections, please do not just say what you believe. Reference a link to the document. Here are links to the docs which I used:
https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/Sec_331_336_UAS.pdf
Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code

Ok, I am braced. Fire away. And, as always,
Fly safely, legally, and enjoyably.

There is only 1 rule: USE YOUR BRAIN. You have a $1,000+ toy. To me, a $1,000+ toy is nothing I care to lose or get destroyed. I have accidentally cut my fingers on spinning blades when trying to do hand catches on a boat. I don't ever want to inflict any pain like that on anyone. SO, I fly VLOS all the time. If I want to fly over something that is 5 miles away I drive as close as I can and do my best to find a VLOS location or at least one where my non-VLOS is minimized. If I am every going to do something adventuresome such as fly at night I will practice a few times beforehand in an open location so I make sure I understand what I am going to see and what my MP will look like visually when doing night flying. I might even pre-fly the area during the day to look for power lines, etc. Bottom line is, like I said, USE YOUR BRAIN with your $1,000+ toy.

ScubaBob · Jan 13, 2018

shire said:
100% agreement.
While I was waiting for my Mavic to be delivered, I read the “rules”, downloaded and read the DJI manuals and watched hours of videos.
I’m fascinated by the apparent disregard for the VLOS regulation. The number of “Look how far I can fly my Mavic” videos and posts, is staggering.
Have I missed something here? Unless their eyesight is way better than mine, VLOS is something to be disregarded. It sometimes takes only one incident to impact everyone in this community. The FAA regs aren’t a suggestion.
End of rant.

Read the posts about losses /crashes. I bet 95% are no VSOL. And then they wonder Why?

787steve · Jan 13, 2018

Lake_Flyer said:
Great to see a newbie with brains here. Well done.
I can only hope that you show the shape of things to come. Unfortunately your kind is quite rare.
Lots of noobs will never get it and start calling names when you tell them about rules.

You are most welcome here!

Not by everyone.

787steve · Jan 13, 2018

Lapeer20m said:
I went and found it....this text is from the part -07 advisory circular:

"
However, the person maintaining VLOS may have brief moments in which he or she is not looking directly at or cannot see the small UA, but still retains the capability to see the UA or quickly maneuver it back to VLOS. These moments can be for the safety of the operation (e.g., looking at the controller to see battery life remaining) or for operational necessity. For operational necessity, the remote PIC or person manipulating the controls may intentionally maneuver the UA so that he or she loses sight of it for brief periods of time. Should the remote PIC or person manipulating the controls lose VLOS of the small UA, he or she must regain VLOS as soon as practicable. For example, a remote PIC stationed on the ground utilizing a small UA to inspect a rooftop may lose sight of the aircraft for brief periods while inspecting the farthest point of the roof. As another example, a remote PIC conducting a search operation around a fire scene with a

small UA may briefly lose sight of the aircraft while it is temporarily behind a dense column of smoke. However, it must be emphasized that even though the remote PIC may briefly lose sight of the small UA, he or she always has the see-and-avoid responsibilities....."

This is why I started the thread. Can you please post the link?

Lapeer20m · Jan 13, 2018

787steve said:
This is why I started the thread. Can you please post the link?

I believe this is the same document....

https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/AC_107-2_AFS-1_Signed.pdf

Section 5.7

787steve · Jan 13, 2018

Lapeer20m said:
I believe this is the same document....

https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/AC_107-2_AFS-1_Signed.pdf

Section 5.7

It is. Technically, it is in reference to Part 107. But, I suspect there is little difference for the hobby community.

geofox784 · Jan 14, 2018

787steve said:
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to challenge the 400' "rule". It seems to be almost universally accepted. But I can only find one thing in the regs pertaining to it. The AMA safety guidelines say not to exceed 400' within 3 miles of an airport, without notifying the tower. The FAA does recommend 400' in it's guidelines, which are certainly wise to heed. But can someone show me an actual law that refers to the 400' number.
I am specifically looking for documentation on this limit. Certainly we are not to endanger the airspace, and avoid aircraft, but this thread is intended purely to address "The Rules".

That documentation does not exist because it cannot legally exist. It's impossible for the FAA to impose that rule. See my above reply.

787steve · Jan 14, 2018

geofox784 said:
That documentation does not exist because it cannot legally exist. It's impossible for the FAA to impose that rule. See my above reply.

Agreed. My research has led me to think that only SEC 336 applies to us as far as specifics like this. I am wondering where the 400' impression came from. Perhaps the FAA guidelines.

sar104 · Jan 14, 2018

787steve said:
Agreed. My research has led me to think that only SEC 336 applies to us as far as specifics like this. I am wondering where the 400' impression came from. Perhaps the FAA guidelines.

It's been somewhat beaten to death but I guess it's worth repeating; there is no 400 ft rule for Part 101. It's neither mentioned in Part 101 subpart E, and nor is it in the AMA Safety Code, which only requires calling when exceeding 400 ft AGL within 3 miles of an airport. And even though the FAA has confirmed that there is no such rule, they did attempt to imply that rule in their website guidelines and FAQs, and in the "agreement" that you make when registering with the FAA.

The 400 ft rule only exists in Part 107 under 107.51 (b).

SGM · Jan 14, 2018

sar104 said:
It's been somewhat beaten to death but I guess it's worth repeating; there is no 400 ft rule for Part 101. It's neither mentioned in Part 101 subpart E, and nor is it in the AMA Safety Code, which only requires
calling when exceeding 400 ft AGL within 3 miles of an airport. And even though the FAA has confirmed that there is no such rule, they did attempt to imply that rule in their website guidelines and FAQs, and in the "agreement" that you make when registering with the FAA.

The 400 ft rule only exists in Part 107 under 107.51 (b).

Thanks sar104 we have seen this come up too many times on this site (the infamous 400' rule argument ) as well as on many other forums and groups where operators swear it is rule , it is law and it is lived by for many. You're right, this has been beaten to death and asked over and over only because I believe the argument never dies and some just keep pushing it regardless.

guest1023 · Jan 14, 2018

787steve said:
I am a newbie here, and I have been diligently searching for a good explanation of the rules. I see a lot of questionable videos with comments from people as to the legality of the operation. They all state what the rules are, or are not. Often vehemently. But many times they contradict each other. They have opposing positions, but both sides strongly believe they are right.

I am primarily going to address altitude, VLOS, and flying within proximity to an airport, as that is where I see the most confusion. I am going to write what I understand the law to be in regard to the type of flying I do, hobbyist. I can't wait to be picked apart by the experienced heads here. So take notes, and throw straight.

1. I believe my hobbyist operation comes under SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT.
2. Section 336 says the FAA may not make any regulations regarding my aircraft if, among other things:
a. It is operated within the safety guidelines of a nationwide community based organization.
The only such organization I know anything about is the AMA. Is there another one which qualifies?
If not, I will get back to their safety code later.
d. It must not interfere with and must give way to manned aircraft.
e. If within 5 miles of an airport, I must give them prior notice.
f. It goes on to say that even though they cannot pass regs on me nothing here keeps them from coming after me if I endanger the safety of the national airspace.
g. It goes on to define a model aircraft under this statute as one "flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft; and (3) flown for hobby or recreational purposes."

The safety code of the AMA adds:
Section A:
a. Cannot operate in a careless or reckless manner.
b. Not fly above 400' AGL within 3 miles of an airport without notifying the tower.
Section B.
a. Don't fly directly over people, vehicles, etc. And not endanger life or property of others.
b. With exception of Takeoff and Landing not get within 25' of persons.
c. Maintain control and keep VLOS with no aids other than my glasses

So, to me, I will avoid airplanes, and airports, and people. I will keep VLOS. That means vertically and horizontally. ( That seems to be a big item in this board) It doesn't look like VFR clear of clouds statutes apply, but I will not fly near clouds, as I could interfere with an IFR flight exiting the clouds. And as anyone could see, I cannot operate in clouds or fog, as that would definitely violate the VLOS requirement. BTW, fog is just a type of cloud. And the big catch all; I will operate safely.

That about sums up the regs as I understand them. If you have corrections, please do not just say what you believe. Reference a link to the document. Here are links to the docs which I used:
https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/Sec_331_336_UAS.pdf
Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code

Ok, I am braced. Fire away. And, as always,
Fly safely, legally, and enjoyably.

You're way ahead of most people. It's kind of like driving a car. Regardless of what your machine can do, you need to exercise caution and COMMON SENSE when operating it. Fat, drunk, and pissing people off is no way to go through life.

SGM · Jan 14, 2018

I want to share a good tool, which was shared with me a little less than a year ago by a member 'HFman' when I was planning to fly in the mountains in Washington state pertaining to VLOS.
"When flying mountains, it is very easy to get behind intermediate ridges and lose LOS. You basically are flying your forward view, and don't realize what might be slipping in behind you. It's easy to get lost in the beauty of what you are seeing. Turn around and face takeoff point once in awhile to see that you still have LOS. Another great tool to visualize this is Google Earth Pro, using the Viewshed tool".
A great technique for helping to keep VLOS and a tool I have used in Google Earth to help visualize my missions many times as I always try to plan all of my missions whether Litchi Autonomous or not as opposed to just jumping out of the truck and flying willy-nilly.
The Viewshed tool helps visualize the hidden ridges and drop off areas, helping you to visualize what you cannot see from your location, or the drone through the camera view until you are past the area flying by or over. When flying mountains, it is very easy to get behind intermediate ridges and lose LOS. You basically are flying your forward view, and don't realize what might be slipping in behind you. It's easy to get lost in the beauty of what you are seeing. Turn around and face takeoff point once in awhile to see that you still have LOS. Another great tool to visualize this is Google Earth Pro, using the viewshed tool.
Just another great tool in my opinion for the responsible flyer.
.

787steve · Jan 14, 2018

daddyp said:
You're way ahead of most people. It's kind of like driving a car. Regardless of what your machine can do, you need to exercise caution and COMMON SENSE when operating it. Fat, drunk, and pissing people off is no way to go through life.

So you're saying I have to change my entire life style??