Unregulated VLOS

[Crow Horse]

The solution might be to loosen the rules so at least 90% of pilots are willing to follow them.

I respectfully disagree. Lowering the bar and loosening the restriction all too often exacerbates a problem.

 

[Pallidin]

I respectfully disagree. Lowering the bar and loosening the restriction all too often exacerbates a problem.

A couple times I flew my MA2 overtop of the McDonald's restaurant which is about 1mile from me.
Completely unpopulated route (only fields and a large, barren parking lot)
Just hovered there for maybe a couple minutes, then flew back.
Awesome playback video, awesome times!
So, I harmed no-one with my BVLOS flights, or put anyone in danger.
Maybe my example is rare, since large fields and a vacant parking lot are between my home and McDonald's.
Great flights!!

 

[mobilehomer]

A simple question for all the videographers and photographers out there, how do you capture all that great video and photos when you are solo? You have to be watching the screen for all this. And TECHNICALLY you are NOT VLOS when watching the screen. Let the fun begin!!

 

[Pallidin]

A simple question for all the videographers and photographers out there, how do you capture all that great video and photos when you are solo? You have to be watching the screen for all this. And TECHNICALLY you are NOT VLOS when watching the screen. Let the fun begin!!

Well, not taking sides, but your factual argument is exactly the same as why the FAA developed rules regarding FPV goggles.
There's an automatic increase in latency, and the peripheral stituational awareness is greatly diminished.
"Danger close" I guess.

 

[slozukimc]

So if I was to build a drone with multiple FPV cameras so that i can view any direction around my drone would that qualify for a BVLOS waiver?

Mike

 

[dirkclod]

A simple question for all the videographers and photographers out there, how do you capture all that great video and photos when you are solo? You have to be watching the screen for all this. And TECHNICALLY you are NOT VLOS when watching the screen. Let the fun begin!!

With your

 

[Pallidin]

So if I was to build a drone with multiple FPV cameras so that i can view any direction around my drone would that qualify for a BVLOS waiver?

Mike

No. For one, latency issues, not to mention resolution issues.
So, no.

 

[Crow Horse]

A couple times I flew my MA2 overtop of the McDonald's restaurant which is about 1mile from me.
Completely unpopulated route (only fields and a large, barren parking lot)
Just hovered there for maybe a couple minutes, then flew back.
Awesome playback video, awesome times!
So, I harmed no-one with my BVLOS flights, or put anyone in danger.
Maybe my example is rare, since large fields and a vacant parking lot are between my home and McDonald's.
Great flights!!

I'm sure it was a safe flight based on your description. However, it was still in violation.
I'm of a "by the book" mentality and make every effort to be compliant.
I mean no disrespect in the following.....This is my thought process regarding being compliant:
I estimate that anywhere between 15% to 25% of the general population are "stupid". Stupid is defined here as being common sense impaired in some manner. We see it every day on YouTube , TV and our daily lives.
Assuming that those same percentages hold true with drone pilots (present company excepted), and those same stupid pilots use their own interpretive values as a template to overlay the rules and regulations, to cherry pick what regulations apply to them, we begin to form the foundation for chaos and an unsafe environment.

The way I see it, just follow the rules. They might not be perfect. They might be inconvenient or restrictive. They might not be fair, but they were crafted by people far more knowledgeable than I to establish a safe environment for all. I'm good with that.

 

[slozukimc]

No. For one, latency issues, not to mention resolution issues.
So, no.

Come up with a better reason because FPV cameras can have amazing resolution, especially on the digital ones. I believe latency is 50ms with my analog goggles. That seems plenty fast enough to avoid a hazard.

Mike

 

[DoomMeister]

Come up with a better reason because FPV cameras can have amazing resolution, especially on the digital ones. I believe latency is 50ms with my analog goggles. That seems plenty fast enough to avoid a hazard.

Mike

With AI software analyzing the horizon for other aircraft to warn of possible interaction maybe, but the resolution required to distinguish between aircraft and birds is not here yet. Those that use 360 degree optical object avoidance still have trouble detecting wires and small tree branches.

This is what I was referring to by waiting until tech catches up to warrant relaxing the regulations. Systems are being worked on to adopt BVLOS flight, but most of it is done in an area that is in Restricted or Prohibited airspace that only grants access to systems being tested.

 

[slozukimc]

With AI software analyzing the horizon for other aircraft to warn of possible interaction maybe, but the resolution required to distinguish between aircraft and birds is not here yet. Those that use 360 degree optical object avoidance still have trouble detecting wires and small tree branches.

This is what I was referring to by waiting until tech catches up to warrant relaxing the regulations. Systems are being worked on to adopt BVLOS flight, but most of it is done in an area that is in Restricted or Prohibited airspace that only grants access to systems being tested.

Is 1080p Ultra HD not good enough resolution to tell the difference between a bird and a plane long before it is close enough to be a hazard? That is what my Runcam can do and it is analog. I am sure there is much better available.

Mike

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

Now what is …edges…

The edges.
Is that what some pilots might call common sense in some cases ?

I know pilots here say flying behind something momentarily, then getting back in VLOS asap is normal for them if it happens, or where needed for a brief time.
That to me is around the edges of VLOS.

A simple question for all the videographers and photographers out there, how do you capture all that great video and photos when you are solo? You have to be watching the screen for all this. And TECHNICALLY you are NOT VLOS when watching the screen. Let the fun begin!!

Apparently the spirit of VLOS is not to be actually eyes on the done ALL the time, but be ABLE to look up at any time, and see your drone almost immediately.
In your question above, if applied as such 99% of drone pilots might as well scrap their hobby / enterprise right now.

Our CASA drone site has mention of FPV being goggles or other screen device for viewing, which is a concern.
I don't believe FAA has such terminology, or have never seen it mentioned here.

So if I was to build a drone with multiple FPV cameras so that i can view any direction around my drone would that qualify for a BVLOS waiver?

Mike

I'd guess probably not, even with multiple screens showing, you still can't really be fully aware of the surroundings, and certainly not effectively monitor even a minimal 4 screens (front, back, left, right) at a time.
Aircraft and minor detail just aren't visible until right on you in a video feedback in reality.

It's not only being able to see other aircraft, but how you react with it in relation to your drone and its surroundings.
With ADS-B you might get a notice of something around same altitude as your drone, possibly going to move closer to the drone . . . without ADS-B you rely on being close enough to be able to hear another aircraft and know how it relates to your drone, action required.

If you had a very large monitor ground station with a VO(s) watching those, it might be something authorities could consider.
Still be a big ask, and a lot of hoops to jump through getting such a new concept approved.

 

[DoomMeister]

Apparently the spirit of VLOS is not to be actually eyes on the done ALL the time, but be ABLE to look up at any time, and see your drone almost immediately.
In your question above, if applied as such 99% of drone pilots might as well scrap their hobby / enterprise right now.

This is how VLOS is approached in the USA according to FAA Advisory Circular 107-2.

5.7 VLOS Aircraft Operation. The remote PIC and person manipulating the controls must be able to see the small UA at all times during flight. Therefore, the small UA must be operated closely enough to the CS to ensure visibility requirements are met during small UA operations. This requirement also applies to the VO, if used during the aircraft operation. However, the person maintaining VLOS may have brief moments in which he or she is not looking directly at or cannot see the small UA, but still retains the capability to see the UA or quickly maneuver it back to VLOS. These moments can be for the safety of the operation (e.g., looking at the controller to see battery life remaining) or for operational necessity. For operational necessity, the remote PIC or person manipulating the controls may intentionally maneuver the UA so that he or she loses sight of it for brief periods of time. Should the remote PIC or person manipulating the controls lose VLOS of the small UA, he or she must regain VLOS as soon as practicable. For example, a remote PIC stationed on the ground utilizing a small UA to inspect a rooftop may lose sight of the aircraft for brief periods while inspecting the farthest point of the roof. As another example, a remote PIC conducting a search operation around a fire scene with a small UA may briefly lose sight of the aircraft while it is temporarily behind a dense column of smoke. However, it must be emphasized that even though the remote PIC may briefly lose sight of the small UA, he or she always has the see-and-avoid responsibilities set out in part 107, §§ 107.31 and 107.37. The circumstances of what would prevent a remote PIC from fulfilling those responsibilities will vary, depending on factors such as the type of UAS, the operational environment, and distance between the remote PIC and the UA. For this reason, there is no specific time interval that interruption of VLOS is permissible, as it would have the effect of potentially allowing a hazardous interruption or prohibiting a reasonable one. If VLOS cannot be regained, the remote PIC or person manipulating the controls should follow pre-determined procedures for a loss of VLOS. These procedures are determined by the capabilities of the sUAS and may include immediately landing the UA, entering hover mode, or returning to home sequence. Thus, the VLOS requirement would not prohibit actions such as scanning the airspace or briefly looking down at the small UA CS.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

This is how VLOS is approached in the USA according to FAA Advisory Circular 107-2.

Thought so, and that's sensible.

Our VLOS rule (or more related, mention of flying FPV First Peron View) is a little more defined, as our airspace authority specifically mentions goggles or other viewing devices, stated as such . . .

--------------
You must always keep your drone within your visual line-of-sight. This means you can see the drone with your own eyes, rather than through an electronic device, video screen or goggles.

Flying First Person View (FPV) makes use of an onboard camera that relays live video to goggles, mobile phone or tablet screen.

When you fly FPV, you can only see vision from the onboard camera. Flying FPV limits your situational awareness and may lead to disorientation. Flying FPV increases the risk of the drone colliding with trees, people, birds or even other aircraft. Without situational awareness, you may not be able to manoeuvre the drone in time to prevent a collision.
-------------

This indicates, a little stronger to me, that CASA want us to watch the drone all the time.
That just doesn't happen.

Of course "always keep your drone within your visual line-of-sight" and "This means you can see the drone with your own eyes . . ." COULD be interpreted as if you look up from a screen, but mentioning 'a device viewing screen' in with use of goggles ?
That really gives me a bad feeling of uncertainty.

 

[DoomMeister]

Thought so, and that's sensible.

Our VLOS rule (or more related, mention of flying FPV First Peron View) is a little more defined, as our airspace authority specifically mentions goggles or other viewing devices, stated as such . . .

--------------
You must always keep your drone within your visual line-of-sight. This means you can see the drone with your own eyes, rather than through an electronic device, video screen or goggles.

Flying First Person View (FPV) makes use of an onboard camera that relays live video to goggles, mobile phone or tablet screen.

When you fly FPV, you can only see vision from the onboard camera. Flying FPV limits your situational awareness and may lead to disorientation. Flying FPV increases the risk of the drone colliding with trees, people, birds or even other aircraft. Without situational awareness, you may not be able to manoeuvre the drone in time to prevent a collision.
-------------

This indicates, a little stronger to me, that CASA want us to watch the drone all the time.
That just doesn't happen.

Of course "always keep your drone within your visual line-of-sight" and "This means you can see the drone with your own eyes . . ." COULD be interpreted as if you look up from a screen, but mentioning 'a device viewing screen' in with use of goggles ?
That really gives me a bad feeling of uncertainty.

What I get out of the explanation in AC 107-2 is that you should be watching the aircraft, but you also need to scan your instruments (ground station - battery level, altitude, distance, etc.), scan the sky for aircraft, scan the operations area for people. In essence doing the things a pilot does in a real plane to maintain situational awareness.

 

[Defens]

Ah, you're a photographer who happens to have a flying camera, instead of a pilot flying a drone, that happens to have a camera.

Different mission objectives.

I always know where my drone is. I just don't rely only on vision to do that. Instrument pilot vs VFR pilot.

My canyon continues to offer places to look where I haven't been yet. I just have to go a bit farther out to see them. The view when I first peaked over the rim of the other side of the canyon was just spectacular.

When I'm flying the drone, I'm either riding the drone, or being the drone, depending on how science fiction-y I'm feeling at the moment. For me, it's not just a camera drone; it's an aircraft that I can fly to cool places and see cool stuff, just like I've done for 40 years with fixed wing planes.

Drones are just indescribably cheaper than regular fixed wing aircraft!

For me, drones are a way for me to fly.

Thx,

TCS

You need to check into the Jetson One quadcopter!

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

What I get out of the explanation in AC 107-2 is that you should be watching the aircraft, but you also need to scan your instruments (ground station - battery level, altitude, distance, etc.), scan the sky for aircraft, scan the operations area for people. In essence doing the things a pilot does in a real plane to maintain situational awareness.

Hmm, yeah there is certainly text in there that lends itself to that conclusion.

"However, the person maintaining VLOS may have brief moments in which he or she is not looking directly at or cannot see the small UA, "

"even though the remote PIC may briefly lose sight of the small UA,"

It's never spelled out clearly, like "You must be watching your UAS at all times while flying", except for those brief scenarios as mentioned.

Certainly "must be able to see the small UA at all times during flight" could easily be taken as watching the drone at all times, or, being able to see (as it's actually worded in that part).

Why not just lay it out clearly ?
Unmistakably so.

Maybe @Vic Moss has some input here, or could get that clarified ?

Maybe the FAA don't WANT it clarified ?

 

[Vic Moss]

Hmm, yeah there is certainly text in there that lends itself to that conclusion.

"However, the person maintaining VLOS may have brief moments in which he or she is not looking directly at or cannot see the small UA, "

"even though the remote PIC may briefly lose sight of the small UA,"

It's never spelled out clearly, like "You must be watching your UAS at all times while flying", except for those brief scenarios as mentioned.

Certainly "must be able to see the small UA at all times during flight" could easily be taken as watching the drone at all times, or, being able to see (as it's actually worded in that part).

Why not just lay it out clearly ?
Unmistakably so.

Maybe @Vic Moss has some input here, or could get that clarified ?

Maybe the FAA don't WANT it clarified ?

There is a lot of confusion about the use of "and" and "or" in VLOS rules.

The FAA rarely gives black and white answers with clear lines of legal delineation. That's for a few reasons.

First, the FAA gives us the flexibility to be adults and make the correct ADM decisions. Having a clear line will unnecessarily restrict some operations. Especially when it comes to BVLOS ops. There are way too many variables involved.

Second, the FAA also gives us enough rope to hang ourselves. Pushing the envelope of VLOS can lead to disaster. And the FAA wants some language in there to make sure they have the ability to pursue education or sanctions if necessary.

And third, UAS tech is changing so fast, it's virtually impossible to have that type of language in a regulation and not have it outdated very quickly. At times before it even becomes a codified regulation.

 

[ScottTX]

A simple question for all the videographers and photographers out there, how do you capture all that great video and photos when you are solo? You have to be watching the screen for all this. And TECHNICALLY you are NOT VLOS when watching the screen. Let the fun begin!!

This is a very relevant point. When I am flying with the live camera feed being presented on my screen, I am going between watching my drone via VLS and looking at the "camera view"
But I do understand the difference between this and the total isolation from VLS that the FPV goggles entail.

 

[Vic Moss]

A simple question for all the videographers and photographers out there, how do you capture all that great video and photos when you are solo? You have to be watching the screen for all this. And TECHNICALLY you are NOT VLOS when watching the screen. Let the fun begin!!

That's incorrect. See above.