Warnings About Regional and Burning Man Events

[Torque]

You and MightyPilot ought to go! You'll get some great shots of tents and campers from your legal periphery. MightyPilot may get dumped on a road with no way home or something....lol.

 

[Bob in Savannah]

No one is "confiscating" private property unless your dumb as* lets them. No matter what some over priced ticket says.
If some event "security" starts going through someone's property and attempts to "confiscate" it, he may get hurt. In more ways than just fiscally and legally. All he can do is escort you off the property.
What a crock. No one is taking your property. Its Illegal. Flying your drone is NOT illegal, (within FAA guidelines). It just breaks some made up policies. If you break them you have to leave. Period. It doesn't matter that some fool printed on a ticket that they can take your property if you have it. lol They could type in there that you owe them your first born, also. You think thats going to hold up?
Act like you have some sense and understand what your rights are.

 

[Torque]

No one is "confiscating" private property unless your dumb as* lets them. No matter what some over priced ticket says.
If some event "security" starts going through someone's property and attempts to "confiscate" it, he may get hurt. In more ways than just fiscally and legally. All he can do is escort you off the property.
What a crock. No one is taking your property. Its Illegal. Flying your drone is NOT illegal, (within FAA guidelines). It just breaks some made up policies. If you break them you have to leave. Period. It doesn't matter that some fool printed on a ticket that they can take your property if you have it. lol They could type in there that you owe them your first born, also. You think thats going to hold up?
Act like you have some sense and understand what your rights are.

And this is why we will all have RID in a few months. Due to those who think they can fly wherever and whenever.

 

[Bob in Savannah]

And this is why we will all have RID in a few months. Due to those who think they can fly wherever and whenever.

Just saying that RID would have zero effect in this situation. Its using a drone (within FAA guidelines) but at an open air event that does not allow it. You will be escorted off. Nothing to do with the law in any way. Its NOT the Super Bowl in downtown somewhere. Its a bunch of new age hippies in a desert.


Just for the record, I've been to many rainbow gatherings many years ago and I know EXACTLY what's going on there. Good luck with "the law" helping the event promoters (lol) in any way with that.

 

[Vic Moss]

Some interesting misinformation/old information on the website.

"The FAA requires all pilots of RC aircraft flying within 5 miles of an airport to notify that airport of their operations." Nope. That hasn't been part of the rules since 2018 when 44809 was passed. Even though 88NV is an actual airport during the event, it's not a controlled airport. It's a BLM field, and Class G. So no FAA permission 9r notification) is needed.

You have the wrong AMA Safety Guidelines link. They came out with newer ones earlier this year: https://www.modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/documents/100.pdf

You require a 107. What about folks who fly under 44809? Will you require a TRUST?

What if those people are flying under a different set of FAA developed safety guidelines? There is also FPVFC, Flite Test Community Association, and STEM+C. Recreational flyers have the right to choose whichever one they want to fly under.

Your night ops requirement is "Flights at night unless equipped with adequate navigation lights per AMA rules". However, if you're requiring someone to have a 107, then those drones need to be equipped with 3SM strobes. And even the new AMA guidelines require "aircraft be equipped with anti-collision lighting that can be seen from 3 statute miles away unless it poses a hazard or distraction to the operator. Other lighting must be used in such a way that allows you to determine attitude and direction of flight."

You also don't mention anything about where the actual "city limits" are where some of these rules apply. Anyone can fly into the area from outside the limits w/o any registration or coordination, if they follow FAA regulations while doing it. You need to make sure your security folks understand that too. They have no authority to confiscate drones that aren't part of the event if that person is flying from outside the event perimeter.

Y'all need to sit down with someone who understands the FAA regulations and work on your drone policy. That way everyone will be on the same page, and it will be safer.

 

[Will_UK]

Weird perceptions here. My Medivac was coming in at dusk for a patient, as I said unfortunately passed. Had the Helicopter hit one of the drones operating illegally there, it would have killed the crew. Our pad is only .5 kilometers from the event. So let us take the Billionaire and just the one real twit drone guy. Billionaire was trying to crash the event. The BM philosophy is nobody is any better than others. Don't go for the animal farm thing with others being more equal than others. No ticket, jump the gate. Hmm what is a fellow to do. He tried plenty of intimidation on us. We use the Ranger philosophy, swarm. However we stood firm, as did the attending Rangers and the Box office perimeter folks. It was my call ultimately as it was an airspace issue, with the ticket issue from box office weighing in.

The other one, yes intimidation. First off, we have a licensed drone operator for the event. That particular one, the one without lights, came and was flying around the legal drone, over large crowds, swooping in and out during the tree burn. So we found him, since it was not the first time he did it. We had him on video nearly colliding with the legal drone. We did only confiscate it, but he had to come back the day after the event to get it back. An action the event coordinator supported and endorsed, as she did with the ejection of the billionaire.

This is South Africa Folks, no FAA, they're CAA. Very strict rules, very big fines. The mentioned drone operator was German. He also illegally imported the drone to South Africa. Customs would have played hell with him had they found it. So our approach is to first confront with intent to confiscate, the German tried to leave the area with his drone. 5 rangers were there, aside from myself. LEO was off to the side. Ultimately yes, we had to intimidate since he was, perhaps a slightly stoned belligerent twit. Totally the guy I want operating a 3 lb brick (Mavic 3 Pro) over large groups of people.

So what would all of your civil petting procedure have been? I am not going to let the person walk off with the drone just to do it again. I cannot touch him physically. If it comes to that I just let LEO there in South Africa toss them in their truck and off to the lockup. We are trying to educate drone operators to actually understand to not bring them in the first place. How do you get the folks to comply. I do spend the mornings strolling about with a lime green vest from airspace, which we hastily affixed a drone symbol to. The people that are decent caring folk come and talk to us and we go over it with them. The twits, never do. There are lots of signs. The folks doing this knew they were breaking the rules. If it gets to be a problem, there is CAA, which will be attending next year as we finish the full time airstrip then. They will not take the confiscate approach. They kind of want the money fines provide. Again, we got 15, with one real twit out of that group.

Just remember folks the rest of the world is not the USA. Your license is not valid anyplace but there. Your little toy sub 250 gram drone is violating the power output on the transmitter in that country if it originated in the USA. If you didn't declare it at customs you are also violating the law in many countries. If you should switch it on, you're violating other laws concerning radios and output. Everyplace is different. Flying is a privilege not a right. Break the rules and lose the privilege. Oh and our rules thing mentioned. Private land and airspace rights in different countries vary. In South Africa the land owner also has to sign the operators waiver to be over their land with a drone, yes totally within our right to enforce. Different rules than the USA folks. Some countries do not use English Common Law as the basis, they use Code Napoleon. A system where essentially you are guilty until you prove your innocence, not exactly but essentially that in practice. That means you go to jail then prove your innocence. You just don't want to go there, over a drone.

Your medivac? I think that says everything we need to know about you.

It's not your medivac mate. You don't own it, lease it or rent it. You're an employee and your employer will have hired it.

They shouldn't let you enforce anything, the tiny bit of Authority you feel you have been given has clearly gone to your head.

There are clear laws in place and the NOTAM will prevent legal flight, best if you just leave it to professional law enforcement and make everyone a pot of tea.

 

[Jake Fortune]

This attitude displayed is EXACTLY why former military should NEVER go into the public sector as civilian law enforcement nor have military hardware. We are not enemy combatants, nor are you the final authority in law, even at your "private" event.

Pretty broad statement there. What other categories of people do you lump together? Sounds a lot like a prejudice and is unfounded.

 

[Georgerom]

Yes it is a NOTAM'd closed airspace, except for authorized fixed, heli and wavered drone operations. All operations by transient aircraft have a PPR number. The US Burn has a controlled actual air traffic area with FAA contract employees in the tower, look on the charts, 88NV.

I really would like to be clear here. If we cannot control this the local CAA will go all draconian. In the burn in Israel, Midburn. Run a drone, they will find you, put you in jail under terrorist charges, and most likely use counter drone measures against it, effectively destroying it. They are slightly more serious than most. They have lots of practice.

I don't understand all this BS. Why do you not charge a fee and give them permission to fly their drones in a controlled manner like 15 -20 min daily and then if they don't stick with the rules then fine them or confiscate the gadgets? I am talking about those inside the camp, not those as intruders, What about those with hacked drones like NFZ and no altitude restrictions and no ID what do you do about them? With your restrictions, you make it worst than it is because always but always you will find people to circumvent your restriction. You caught only the dumb ones and the clever ones I bet they laughed at your abilities to catch them. The more restrictions you put in place the more ways to get around them will be. So get smarter.

 

[Dogpilot]

Anyhow, I see putting our policy out in their forum was a bit of a waste of time. Basically, we will have to deal with any of you when you come as per the usual policy. Yes I love haters of all kinds, and yes, my Medivac, since I have operational control and do fly them myself from time to time. I do not get paid anything for this, I even buy my own ticket to attend. Jake, Torque and a few others, stop by Flag sometimes, I will give you the flight over the Grand Canyon (Via the published routes) you shall not forget, PM me. I gift rides at the events in my aircraft, usually around 50-100 happy riders per event.

I do this kind of work all over the world, meet all kinds. Meh. Love to see what the folks here living under bridges have done for humanity.

 

[Georgerom]

I think a little history is in order. At the US burn, when I was one of the leads on airspace as the, their title not mine, "Air Commander." We tried out a program where we did a two hour class going over all the rules and regulations where and when they could operate. We had a dedicated drone coordinator. The attendees got a hang tag to wear showing others they had attended and complied. Well it lasted a year. Every time an un-approved person saw a drone go up, they assumed they could do it as well. Rangers could not cope (this was 2016). Then there was some rather shrill loud in our face arguments about personal privacy. There is a policy of folks being able to get the purple no photo band to wear about. Some people take their privacy seriously, very seriously, really, really seriously. So with a drone operator unable to get consent, BMORG shut down all drone operations, it is noted in the NOTAM. Even the approved media drone operators have their footage reviewed.

In answer, E-2's, and some rare not well known DC-8's that kind of resembled a United Airlines birds (they played out of Key West), just didn't quite say United on the side. Even a couple a test helicopters for potential for EW for the Marines (H-46E's). Heck we even mounted two sidewinders on that one as well for dissimilar ACM testing. Actually worked quite well.

When you are at such an event when people running naked or half naked what privacy do they expect? This is a bogus argument to enforce a drone passing over your head. No one has any privacy there. This is just made up of a motive to enforce your rules. Thank God FAA rules the air space in the USA and not you. Even if is private property you do not own the airspace above your property in less FAA set an NFZ over that property. So all your efforts to enforce your rules can be disputed in court and you will lose big time. Abut safety let us know how many people died at all these events since you get in charge. How many helicopters get hit by a drone and how many injuries were made by drones? You don't have to be precise just an approximate number.

 

[zen20009]

When you are at such an event when people running naked or half naked what privacy do they expect? This is a bogus argument to enforce a drone passing over your head. No one has any privacy there. This is just made up of a motive to enforce your rules. Thank God FAA rules the air space in the USA and not you. Even if is private property you do not own the airspace above your property in less FAA set an NFZ over that property. So all your efforts to enforce your rules can be disputed in court and you will lose big time. Abut safety let us know how many people died at all these events since you get in charge. How many helicopters get hit by a drone and how many injuries were made by drones? You don't have to be precise just an approximate number.

 

[Georgerom]

Yes it is a NOTAM'd closed airspace, except for authorized fixed, heli and wavered drone operations. All operations by transient aircraft have a PPR number. The US Burn has a controlled actual air traffic area with FAA contract employees in the tower, look on the charts, 88NV.

I really would like to be clear here. If we cannot control this the local CAA will go all draconian. In the burn in Israel, Midburn. Run a drone, they will find you, put you in jail under terrorist charges, and most likely use counter drone measures against it, effectively destroying it. They are slightly more serious than most. They have lots of practice.

I was searching all morning about what you say about Israel will charge you with terrorism if you get caught at such events flying a drone and come back with 0 results on my search. Send me a link to prove your point. If not what you are saying is pure fiction in your head. I understand your determination but if you think the USA is Israel you are wrong. I see we are going in that direction with all these restrictions already in place but thank God we are not there yet.

 

[Droning on and on...]

So many here have obviously never been to BM and have an inaccurate idea of what it's like...

 

[zen20009]

Anyhow, I see putting our policy out in their forum was a bit of a waste of time. Basically, we will have to deal with any of you when you come as per the usual policy. Yes I love haters of all kinds, and yes, my Medivac, since I have operational control and do fly them myself from time to time. I do not get paid anything for this, I even buy my own ticket to attend. Jake, Torque and a few others, stop by Flag sometimes, I will give you the flight over the Grand Canyon (Via the published routes) you shall not forget, PM me. I gift rides at the events in my aircraft, usually around 50-100 happy riders per event.

I do this kind of work all over the world, meet all kinds. Meh. Love to see what the folks here living under bridges have done for humanity.
View attachment 163758

Thank you for your posts. I found them informative and helpful.

 

[New England Droning]

Just returned from AfrikaBurn. I am one of the Airspace Managers, for fixed wing, rotary wing and reluctantly function as the drone police. Just to let folks know, if they plan to attend any of the worldwide or US based Burning Man events there are specific rules, which prohibit any but our one or two permitted, possessing waivers, insurance and proper local licensing from FAA/CAA to film at the events. This year we started very aggressive policing of illegal drone flights. We captured 15 drones this year at AfrikaBurn alone, ranging from a Mavic 3 Pro to an assortment of 2's and minis. We do eventually give them back to the owners, but make it a colossal pain in the a$$ to teach them a lesson. A few argue with us, and I simply point out the nearby law enforcement officer, who lurks close by. Choice: we confiscate it, you eventually get it back, or face the local closed airspace, flight over large events, no commercial local license, no waiver and no insurance criminal violations. These charges will add up to many thousands in fines, many automatic, permanent loss of equipment and possible jail time. Depends on the local laws in that country.

We are in the process of buying the latest flight ID tracking devices, but we seem to be doing quite well with hand-talkies and eyeballs. What goes up must come down. So In next years events, we will be electronically logging and passing to local CAA, violators. It is a safety hazard to the participants and a violation of their right to privacy and a severe hazard to our medivac helicopters and fixed wing traffic. Spread the word, we would prefer not to have this as a primary job, but rather the occasional dufus to deal with.

where people come together like this I would consider it an "Assembly of people" and don't think there should be any argument...

 

[jmaganaski]

Just returned from AfrikaBurn. I am one of the Airspace Managers, for fixed wing, rotary wing and reluctantly function as the drone police. Just to let folks know, if they plan to attend any of the worldwide or US based Burning Man events there are specific rules, which prohibit any but our one or two permitted, possessing waivers, insurance and proper local licensing from FAA/CAA to film at the events. This year we started very aggressive policing of illegal drone flights. We captured 15 drones this year at AfrikaBurn alone, ranging from a Mavic 3 Pro to an assortment of 2's and minis. We do eventually give them back to the owners, but make it a colossal pain in the a$$ to teach them a lesson. A few argue with us, and I simply point out the nearby law enforcement officer, who lurks close by. Choice: we confiscate it, you eventually get it back, or face the local closed airspace, flight over large events, no commercial local license, no waiver and no insurance criminal violations. These charges will add up to many thousands in fines, many automatic, permanent loss of equipment and possible jail time. Depends on the local laws in that country.

We are in the process of buying the latest flight ID tracking devices, but we seem to be doing quite well with hand-talkies and eyeballs. What goes up must come down. So In next years events, we will be electronically logging and passing to local CAA, violators. It is a safety hazard to the participants and a violation of their right to privacy and a severe hazard to our medivac helicopters and fixed wing traffic. Spread the word, we would prefer not to have this as a primary job, but rather the occasional dufus to deal with.

Sorry for the dumb question, who/what is CAA?

 

[Tufargon]

Sorry for the dumb question, who/what is CAA?

Civil Aviation Authority

The UK's aviation regulator

www.caa.co.uk

 

[tived]

Missed out on burning Man some years ago! Always wanted to. Not to fly drones though.
Sure it would be interesting to get images from the air, but that’s not what Burning Man is all about.

Great you are keeping the event safe, drones would be very far down on the risk list! But nonetheless still a risk.

 

[Heavydpj]

No, no you don't.

The FAA does in the US. Period.

Actually not completely.
The FAA only controls airspace. The landowner/operator/government controls the ability to operate from the venue.
In every one of the examples given, the PIC was operating from inside the venue without permission.

I also suspect that when you buy your ticket, there's also a blurb stating that you will abide by all the venue rules.

 

[Heavydpj]

However, the US is not Sudan or Somalia. The latitude you have there to treat people abusively you do not have in the US.

Yes, they do. He's doing nothing more than giving the unlawful PIC a choice - they can have their drone informally secured and then returned, or face legal consequences.

In the US it's the same - "You and I can agree that I will keep your drone and you enjoy the rest of your time, getting it back after the event. Your other choice is that I will eject you from the venue and report your actions to the FAA; and BTW, if I see you again inside, I have you arrested for trespassing."