What are your thoughts about "Air Sentinel", a new drone tracking app, and similar apps?

[Droning on and on...]

Spying on us is done from a much higher altitude and with a much better lens than any of our drones have. When does spying from above become illegal and for whom?

Yes, true!

The state of VA has opened a case against China for their spy satellites, and expect to travel to Beijing and make a few arrests of CCP intel officers shortly.

 

[Eagle Eye 62]

The biggest downside of remote ID is the ability to identify the location of the pilot. While I am ok with the idea of law enforcement, emergency responders and even the FAA having this type of access (not that I want them to necessarily) I think the FAA failed miserably when they allowed the pilot location data to be accessible to anyone via the use of an app (and yes, there are already apps out there that can do this, unfortunately). This not only compromises personal privacy, but safety as well. As for the rest of Remo0te ID, I get it and it is probably a necessary evil.....

 

[anotherlab]

Being realistic, if someone would do something like this, purposely and flagrantly video and photograph the folks at the pool party, then they probably would not be flying a RID compliant drone… Yeah, I know, there are plenty of Dumb Criminals, who would even post those videos on their social media… But then you would need more sophisticated equipment to track the Drone telemetry than a Phone App…

That was realistic and was just a single example.

On the flip side of that example, someone calls the police to complain that a drone was hovering over their pool party. The RID data can be shown to the police and they would see that the drown was passing through and was not hovering over private property.

None of that invalidates the point that I made that more than one authority can control what you do with your drone.

 

[anotherlab]

Yes, true!

The state of VA has opened a case against China for their spy satellites, and expect to travel to Beijing and make a few arrests of CCP intel officers shortly.

Was that sarcasm or you do have a source for that? Virginia passed some laws with regard to China after the spy balloon, but they didn't do that.

 

[LoudThunder]

None of that invalidates the point that I made that more than one authority can control what you do with your drone.

Oh, I absolute agree that a RID Reading App would be a boon to possibly finding the culprit, I just wanted to emphasize that the RID Reader "is not the end all, be all" to catch the drone operator. We have had numerous members who take the RID issue as an "invasion into their privacy" and that no one should have the ability to read their drone telemetry data and identify them. They have emphatically stated that they will not upgrade their Firmware to enable the RID or will seek out the older drone (no RID) models.

They want to fly in complete anonymity, like the "Lone Drone Ranger..." (Who was that Masked Man..."

As you can see in my Signature Block below, I am retired Air Force and I live in a Zero Altitude Quadrant of Langley AFB's Class D Airspace. Since I have my Part 107, I have acquired the authorization to fly in this this "Drone Taxi Zone" and when I do, I have to call the ATC to coordinate with Langley. I also fly at a local park that is operated by the Base, but it is outside the Zero Zone, and the when the security police patrol, they often stop by to chat and say they were told I was flying. The Base knows and apparently has the equipment to read my telemetry. They probably have my telemetry archived and when I fly, they know it's me and my Mini 2...

 

[13_Dragons]

I think we all can agree that RID is going to happen, does not really matter if we like it or not. I like most of us have a issue with "Karen" having my location Because I dont want to be disturbed while operating my drones.
Out of Five DJI drones I own as of sept 16th Two will be grounded as they are not RID ready, Two of them Have RID in them and are registered under my 107, The other is my Mini 2, it does not need RID and is registered for Recreational use.
Now if I want to be a Outlaw I can fly my two Non-RID drones, However I do not want to risk losing my 107. So those two will stay on ground until I find a Cheap RID Module.
So Like I said This is going to Happen. We can sit and go back and forth all day, But in the end this will still happen.
At this point what we should Focus on are these Local and State Laws That are being proposed/passed That try to regulate the Airspace. So in that respect we need to be side by side with the FAA. Lets Focus on changing the Things we can change. Remember RID was not the FAA's Baby It was a Mandate from Congress to the FAA.

 

[Droning on and on...]

Was that sarcasm or you do have a source for that? Virginia passed some laws with regard to China after the spy balloon, but they didn't do that.

Well, to be honest I found the post I was responding to to be side-splitting, laugh-out-loud hilarious.

 

[Droning on and on...]

We have had numerous members who take the RID issue as an "invasion into their privacy" and that no one should have the ability to read their drone telemetry data and identify them. They have emphatically stated that they will not upgrade their Firmware to enable the RID or will seek out the older drone (no RID) models.

And they strike me as unreasonable, tin-foil hat owners.

I'm mostly libertarian, politically. But libertarians even recognize the difference between "public" and "private", and that the rules in each sphere are different. In the privacy of your own castle, or 1000 acre ranch, you have little to no civil obligation. There is no imperative for an ordered society (like, we aren't allowed to steal from each other).

Shout at the top of your lungs. Take your hotrod to 110mph. Your not impacting anyone else. We don't care.

Do those things in public, and the situation changes enormously. Now, everyone's interests must be considered and balanced. This requires some compromise and accommodation on the part of everyone.

Take car license plates. All our cars are required to have them. They're there for exactly the same reason RID is being rolled out. I doubt the complainers here are upset that they can be identified when out driving, consider it an affront to their freedom, and feel really strongly they should be able to drive anonymously without plates.

I expect they just accept it as a sensible factor in a civil, ordered society where we all share the roads, and license plates are an important part of making it work.

I find the theft argument exceedingly unpersuasive. This is already TL;DR, so I'll simply predict that we'll see vanishingly few incidents like this. Wouldn't surprise me if the total in the US can be counted on one hand 5 years from now.

 

[DARKSeifer]

And they strike me as unreasonable, tin-foil hat owners.

I'm mostly libertarian, politically. But libertarians even recognize the difference between "public" and "private", and that the rules in each sphere are different. In the privacy of your own castle, or 1000 acre ranch, you have little to no civil obligation. There is no imperative for an ordered society (like, we aren't allowed to steal from each other).

Shout at the top of your lungs. Take your hotrod to 110mph. Your not impacting anyone else. We don't care.

Do those things in public, and the situation changes enormously. Now, everyone's interests must be considered and balanced. This requires some compromise and accommodation on the part of everyone.

Take car license plates. All our cars are required to have them. They're there for exactly the same reason RID is being rolled out. I doubt the complainers here are upset that they can be identified when out driving, consider it an affront to their freedom, and feel really strongly they should be able to drive anonymously without plates.

I expect they just accept it as a sensible factor in a civil, ordered society where we all share the roads, and license plates are an important part of making it work.

I find the theft argument exceedingly unpersuasive. This is already TL;DR, so I'll simply predict that we'll see vanishingly few incidents like this. Wouldn't surprise me if the total in the US can be counted on one hand 5 years from now.

I'll tell you when my motorbike and car emits at 3.5Km my location and telemetry not only to the cops but to anyone around... which will be never, despite the fact that only in my country, 1.145 people died due to car accidents during 2022 and 4.008 were severily injured.

No one in the entire world has died due to an accident with a recreational drone of any weight, yet we become a 3.5Km target every time we engage the motors to take a picture of the sunset because... potatoes.

Just crazy to read people so naive about RID and drone over regulation in general.

 

[anotherlab]

I'll tell you when my motorbike and car emits at 3.5Km my location and telemetry not only to the cops but to anyone around... which will be never, despite the fact that only in my country, 1.145 people died due to car accidents during 2022 and 4.008 were severily injured.

That's kind of an apple and oranges comparison. Planes are required to have transponders to fly below 18,000ft in US airspace. The number of times that a motorbike has flown over my house is a very low number.

Here in the US, it's common to have an RFID toll transponder in your car. The readers allow you to use toll roads without having to pay cash when you get on or off. By definition, they are tracking your vehicle. We also have license plate readers and cameras on selected traffic signals

No one in the entire world has died due to an accident with a recreational drone of any weight, yet we become a 3.5Km target every time we engage the motors to take a picture of the sunset because... potatoes.

There have been situations emergency responders have not been able to bring in a helicopter because someone was flying their drone near the accident location. Unfortunately, it's the actions of a few that places the restrictions on the rest of us.

 

[Dangerly]

I'll tell you when my motorbike and car emits at 3.5Km my location and telemetry not only to the cops but to anyone around... which will be never, despite the fact that only in my country, 1.145 people died due to car accidents during 2022 and 4.008 were severily injured.

No one in the entire world has died due to an accident with a recreational drone of any weight, yet we become a 3.5Km target every time we engage the motors to take a picture of the sunset because... potatoes.

Just crazy to read people so naive about RID and drone over regulation in general.

Some people know that RFIDs have been sewn into clothing for years. You can read about that here: RFID in textile and clothing manufacturing: technology and challenges - Fashion and Textiles. A choice quote from this article:

There is a great challenge to the consumer privacy. The consumers using the product with RFID tags can be traced easily. The RFID tag broadcasts the ID serial number or the EPC to the nearby reader. There is a very high chance of privacy violations. The size of the dress a woman wants can be publicly readable by any nearby scanner. [emphasis added]

Here's a picture with an RFID tag sewn into underwear (from Yahoo news):

Where this turns darker, is that your name can get associated with this RFID tag when you purchase the underwear with your credit card. Whether or not this happens depends on the exact software being used by the retailer. However even if you pay with cash, there are ways to associate your name with the underwear after the fact when you pass by another RFID scanner somewhere and do provide your identity.

Millions of people pass by RFID scanners every day on their way into mass transportation, and the RFID in your underwear will get read by these scanners too, along with your access card. A few years back I was debugging software used by the leading vendor of RFID-based entrance control systems used at the largest subways / trains / buses around the world. I personally saw RFID tags of clothing products being streamed to servers, from which a copy of all the data was streamed in realtime to severs I could not identify. When I asked management what this was for, the next week a team of military people from Virginia showed up at my office in California to ask me what I knew about this and I played dumb.

 

[LoudThunder]

Just crazy to read people so naive about RID and drone over regulation in general.

I live North of Norfolk on the Peninsula and this just hit the papers...

Norfolk installed license plate reading cameras that can follow a car throughout the city

It's against the law to install those license plate covers that allow the plate to be seen only from directly behind. I guess they will make a comeback...

 

[Chip]

I live North of Norfolk on the Peninsula and this just hit the papers...

Norfolk installed license plate reading cameras that can follow a car throughout the city

It's against the law to install those license plate covers that allow the plate to be seen only from directly behind. I guess they will make a comeback...

Do not be alarmed. It is all for the greater good. Do not be selfish. If you are not a criminal you have nothing to fear. The government employs the best and brightest who know what is best for us. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[LoudThunder]

Thank you for your cooperation.

Says the Voice on the Telescreen ("1984") LoL…

​

 

[karlblessing]

The only reason the team at Air Sentinel is charging for the app is because that is how they'll protect pilot location. They're free version will not have pilot location available.

As far as historical data, the only way any of these apps will collect it is if they actually are on during an encounter. There is no forensic capabilities inbedded in RID. Some cities are likely going to become fully wired for RID.

For instance, El Paso, Tx announced earlier this month that they are the first city to by fully networked for RID. And that's likely due to being a huge area of drone use for smuggling.

Would that be legal for a government entity tho? (Ie to have it networked and recorded) thought the FAA wouldn't have been able to get it approved it they were going to have that allowance to government due to 4th amendment concerns.

 

[Vic Moss]

Would that be legal for a government entity tho? (Ie to have it networked and recorded) thought the FAA wouldn't have been able to get it approved it they were going to have that allowance to government due to 4th amendment concerns.

That was one of the arguments Race Day Quads used in their court case. They lost. There is no 4th Amendment right when you're flying in the NAS.

Same argument with speeding cameras and public roadways. No 4th Amendment protection in either case.

 

[finity]

When I asked management what this was for, the next week a team of military people from Virginia showed up at my office in California to ask me what I knew about this and I played dumb.

pics or it didn't happen...

 

[Wreckhunter]

Another karen app, it's only use is to pick the location of the pilot to go confront him and yep, if you are around this forum, you are the pilot.

The other use is drone hunting; drones are expensive and are usually flown in remote areas, RID can be picked at 3.5Km (I did my own testing) with your regular tablet/smartphone and in theory up to 50Km with a really good antenna if the drone is high enough and unobstructed; but ranges up to 10Km should be easily achieved with an inexpensive receiver and a decent cheap antenna.

Expensive gear, alone in the middle of nowhere and with a 3.5-10Km target on your back... a sweet for burglars.

You nailed it.

 

[karlblessing]

If he is legitimately the creator, I'm curious what exactly the patent is and how he plans to enforce it...

 

[Vic Moss]

If he is legitimately the creator, I'm curious what exactly the patent is and how he plans to enforce it...

Kenji is my business partner at DSPA (notice we both have the same logo?), and he is the creator behind Air Sentinel. There is no "if" about it.

The FAA doesn't decide how it's created. RID is simply a set of rules mandated by Congress, hijacked by DHS and the FBI, and given to the FAA to enforce.

ASTM set the actual technical standards, and it was accepted by the FAA. It is then up to private industry to create the system(s) by which it is operated. Other people or organizations are more than welcome to set up their own set of technical RID standards and submit them to the FAA. But the required investment in time and money make that unlikely.

Let's use the speed limit as a comparison. Speed limits are set by government entities. But they have no say so in how data is gathered by officers (or civilians for that matter). Each type of radar gun and speed camera has its own patent, usually multiple patents. Those patents are licensed to other manufacturers by the patent holder. No one can use patented software or hardware w/o that license.

In this case, Kenji is the patent holder for this particular method of data gathering. If someone else were to patent a different system, then folks are welcome to license that system for their RID apps.

Kenji put this out because he didn't like the way RID was implemented. Having pilot location public knowledge is a very concerning issue. His app will only allow subscribers to see pilot location. And only qualified folks will have that subscription.

There is a certain set of data required in the packet RID transmits. But there is no legal mandate on what the apps collect. Kenji's system is the one in play at the moment. So app developers will have to license that from him.

So instead of attacking Kenji, who is trying to make RID work for the pilot's safety, you should appreciate what he's doing for this industry.