What Information does a Drone Tracking App Receive and What does it Show…

[DougMcC]

Perhaps unless they are “zeroed”at launch - probably not. GPS altitude may well be more accurate. The FAA does publish GPS approaches for instrument approaches. My instrument currency pre dates those technical changes so it may require pressure altimeters and radar altimeters to be legal.

 

[mobilehomer]

The reports I have looked at from Dronescanner, Air Sentinel and OpenDroneID all how 2 altitudes for the drone. One I'm sure is from takeoff point, the other possibly from gps data above sea level. There is that much difference between the two data.

 

[LoudThunder]

Just like your drone, a RID module only knows its own altitude from the moment it is turned on and that is set to "Ground Zero" Raise it over your head and it would be reporting your height…

If you hike up a mountain and carry your drone with you and you stand on the edge of a precipice that drops 500-feet and then you launch your drone; your drone (and the RID Module…) might be reporting 5-feet, but then you fly straight out over the precipice and your drone is still reporting 5' as well as the RID Module, but we all know that your drone is now 500-feet Above Ground Level (AGL) and you are in violation of the max altitude of 400-feet…

If your drone is RID Compliant, it is reporting the controller's position (actually your position…); however, since a RID Module has no connectivity with the drone or the controller, it can only report the launch position (the position when it is turned on…).

For me to use my Mini 2 in any Commercial Flying with my 107 License I will have to buy a RID Module. But I will probably turn on the Module before I get to the Launch site. The Module at that moment of startup will set that position as the Zero Ground Altitude and the Launch position, maybe even a mile away… Let Karen or Kevin try to find me then…

 

[AMann]

Just like your drone, a RID module only knows its own altitude from the moment it is turned on and that is set to "Ground Zero" Raise it over your head and it would be reporting your height…

If you hike up a mountain and carry your drone with you and you stand on the edge of a precipice that drops 500-feet and then you launch your drone; your drone (and the RID Module…) might be reporting 5-feet, but then you fly straight out over the precipice and your drone is still reporting 5' as well as the RID Module, but we all know that your drone is now 500-feet Above Ground Level (AGL) and you are in violation of the max altitude of 400-feet…

If your drone is RID Compliant, it is reporting the controller's position (actually your position…); however, since a RID Module has no connectivity with the drone or the controller, it can only report the launch position (the position when it is turned on…).

For me to use my Mini 2 in any Commercial Flying with my 107 License I will have to buy a RID Module. But I will probably turn on the Module before I get to the Launch site. The Module at that moment of startup will set that position as the Zero Ground Altitude and the Launch position, maybe even a mile away… Let Karen or Kevin try to find me then…

I wouldn’t have published that… once enough people start doing it FAA is going to change their minds about allowing RID modules to be used on noncompliant drones. Besides, aren’t you going to be transmitting flight data with your serial number on it that’s well BVLOS?

I like your dog and DV tricks, those are great! I am definitely going to try that.

So looking at my Flight data on my Dronetag BS, I it has to be using the barometer to help make the height above the takeoff point more accurate. It probably resets to zero every time you turn it on. GPS elevation is just not that accurate, in my experience, it could be as far as 30 feet off or more depending on satellite geometry.

 

[Droning on and on...]

Here is what I've found with a bit more searching.

The content of an RID packet is defined in CFR §89.305 Minimum message elements broadcast by standard remote identification unmanned aircraft.

Altitude data is specified in paragraph

(c) An indication of the geometric altitude of the control station.​

and paragraph

(e) An indication of the geometric altitude of the unmanned aircraft.​

From Introduction to Performance and Flying Qualities Flight Testing - Purdue College of Engineering, "geometric altitude" is defined as, "the actual height of an object or aircraft above sea level".

Looks like the GPS altitude to me.

 

[LoudThunder]

I like your dog and DV tricks,

I am sure plenty of folks are already working on ways to keep their location secret and the vague instruction relative to the use of the RID module is all about what the module must transmit, not how the module is used other than it being attached to the drone and not your dog's collar…

True, if I fired up the module way before the launch site, and the module would then show that the drone is long ways from the "launch site" but the drone would never be beyond my line of sight and there are only rules about Line of Sight, not distance flown…

There is a whole cadre of folks who will not update their software to prevent it from enabling the built in RID capability of their drones and there are those who are in the market for older non-RID compliant drones.

I definitely am not at the forefront of any Anti-RID Movement. Actually, I am all for it, I just do not think it should transmit the Controller's position or the Launch site…

I am a retired 30-year Air Force veteran and I live near an Air Force Base in the Zero Altitude Quadrant and I can only fly in my own yard because I have a Part 107 License with an FAA Authorization that requires me to call the ATC at Langley whenever I fly. Sometimes I may call them a half-dozen times a week to fly, so they know me well as the "old Chief…"

Sometimes I "forget to call" and they might tease me a bit when I do call as they say we had a "reading" that you mght have been flying this morning… So they are probably using Aeroscope of something similar and they are reading the Serial Number of my drone.

At this time the only real instruction is a graphic handout that mentions the module transmits the takeoff location and altitude, but there are no rules that prevent the pilot from taking a walk while flying their drone. I often travel around as I am fling to stay out of the sun or to view the drone better, so I do do not stay in the takeoff location…

So, as RID Day gets closer (and I believe it will be slipped at least a year…), the rules may be become more restricted and I might only turn it on a block or so away…

Your reference to " I like your dog and DV tricks" are you referring to what I do when dog walkers let their dgos off leash and they seem to be taking an "unhealthy" interest in my drone and I tease the dog a bit and then fly away causing the dog to chase it with the dog owner cursing and swearing at the dog for running off? That Dog Trick?

But I am drawing a blank on the DV trick? Refresh my memory…

 

[AMann]

I am sure plenty of folks are already working on ways to keep their location secret and the vague instruction relative to the use of the RID module is all about what the module must transmit, not how the module is used other than it being attached to the drone and not your dog's collar…

True, if I fired up the module way before the launch site, and the module would then show that the drone is long ways from the "launch site" but the drone would never be beyond my line of sight and there are only rules about Line of Sight, not distance flown…

There is a whole cadre of folks who will not update their software to prevent it from enabling the built in RID capability of their drones and there are those who are in the market for older non-RID compliant drones.

I definitely am not at the forefront of any Anti-RID Movement. Actually, I am all for it, I just do not think it should transmit the Controller's position or the Launch site…

I am a retired 30-year Air Force veteran and I live near an Air Force Base in the Aero Altitude Quadrant and I can only fly in my own yard because I have a Part 107 License with an FAA Authorization that requires me to call the ATC at Langley whenever I fly. Sometimes I may call them a half-dozen times a week to fly, so they know me well as the "old Chief…"

Sometimes I "forget to call" and they might tease me a bit when I do call as they say we had a "reading" that you mght have been flying this morning… So they are probably using Aeroscope of something similar and they are reading the Serial Number or my drone.

At this time the only real instruction is a graphic handout that mentions the module transmits the takeoff location and altitude, but there are no rules that prevent the pilot from taking a walk while flying their drone. I often travel around as I am fling to stay out of the sun or to view the drone better, so I do do not stay in the takeoff location…

So, as RID Day gets closer (and I believe it will be slipped at least a year…), the rules may be become more restricted and I might only turn it on a block or so away…

Your reference to " I like your dog and DV tricks" are you referring to what I do when dog walkers let their dgos off leash and they seem to be taking an "unhealthy" interest in my drone and I tease the dog a bit and then fly away causing the dog to chase it with the dog owner cursing and swearing at the dog for running off? That Dog Trick?

But I am drawing a blank on the DV trick? Refresh my memory…

I meant the way you described walking both dogs and curious people away from you with your drone- that’s great! I like your take on how to handle your Tag - the thought of seeing Karen’s wandering around where you turned it on is pretty funny. You should do it in front of some interesting locations around town like the police station, maybe city hall, and then from a fire department. Karen’s will think it’s a official drone then.

 

[AMann]

Here is what I've found with a bit more searching.

The content of an RID packet is defined in CFR §89.305 Minimum message elements broadcast by standard remote identification unmanned aircraft.

Altitude data is specified in paragraph

(c) An indication of the geometric altitude of the control station.​

and paragraph

(e) An indication of the geometric altitude of the unmanned aircraft.​

From Introduction to Performance and Flying Qualities Flight Testing - Purdue College of Engineering, "geometric altitude" is defined as, "the actual height of an object or aircraft above sea level".

Looks like the GPS altitude to me.

With barometric corrections?

 

[Droning on and on...]

With barometric corrections?

The CFR didn't say anything about barometric corrections, so i would assume it's the uncorrected, GPS altitude.

I included a link to the CFR section in the post.

 

[AMann]

The CFR didn't say anything about barometric corrections, so i would assume it's the uncorrected, GPS altitude.

I included a link to the CFR section in the post.

What I meant was it probably uses the barometer to do a error correction to increase its altitude accuracy and it would also increase its real-time altitude reporting speed faster than trying to use GPS to accurately calculate the quick elevation changes that drones can do.

 

[Droning on and on...]

Sure, it could do that. The CFR doesn't specify implementation, only what datum is required. It's got to be the Geometric Altitude.

 

[AMann]

Sure, it could do that. The CFR doesn't specify implementation, only what datum is required. It's got to be the Geometric Altitude.

AMSL for short…

 

[LoudThunder]

Here is what I've found with a bit more searching.

Actually, the correct regulation governing the Broadcast requirements of a RID Module is:

§ 89.315 Minimum Message Elements Broadcast By Remote Identification Broadcast Modules.

Federal Register :: Request Access

And the specific reference concerning the Take-Off Location is:

(e) An indication of the latitude and longitude of the take-off location of the unmanned aircraft.

And since the regulation specifies that the module need only offer an "indication" of Latitude and Longitude of the Take-off Location, I feel that I am fully vindicated by the vagueness of the Regulation to turn on the RID Module prior to arriving at the specific Launch Location…

You see, Webster's Dictionary defines "indication" as something that serves to indicate or suggest…

Synonyms for "Indication" are: clue, hint, suggestion, cue, idea, sign, inkling, suspicion, lead, glimpse, inference, scent, allusion, glimmer, whiff, insinuation, hunch, notion, flicker, inspiration, feeling…

For example, if I turn on a RID module prior to actually arriving at my launch site, the module would give a "Clue or Hint or Allusion or Notion or even a Feeling" to the Lat/Long of the Take-Off site…

That's my Story and I'm sticking to it… L L…

 

[AMann]

Actually, the correct regulation governing the Broadcast requirements of a RID Module is:

§ 89.315 Minimum Message Elements Broadcast By Remote Identification Broadcast Modules.

Federal Register :: Request Access

And the specific reference concerning the Take-Off Location is:

(e) An indication of the latitude and longitude of the take-off location of the unmanned aircraft.

And since the regulation specifies that the module need only offer an "indication" of Latitude and Longitude of the Take-off Location, I feel that I am fully vindicated by the vagueness of the Regulation to turn on the RID Module prior to arriving at the specific Launch Location…

You see, Webster's Dictionary defines "indication" as something that serves to indicate or suggest…

Synonyms for "Indication" are: clue, hint, suggestion, cue, idea, sign, inkling, suspicion, lead, glimpse, inference, scent, allusion, glimmer, whiff, insinuation, hunch, notion, flicker, inspiration, feeling…

For example, if I turn on a RID module prior to actually arriving at my launch site, the module would give a "Clue or Hint or Allusion or Notion or even a Feeling" to the Lat/Long of the Take-Off site…

That's my Story and I'm sticking to it… L L…

I still think you should turn it on before a flight in front of the police station, or maybe the nearest FAA field office?

 

[LoudThunder]

I still think you should turn it on before a flight in front of the police station

I like that idea, but I do not know how feasible it is. Once it's turned on it will transmit the Take-Off Site, and keep transiting it's location all the time it's on. But once you get to the launch site, and take off, then assuming that Karen/Kevin is not wandering around monitoring the air for transmissions, they would then see the drone, start their App and try to find it. They would receive the continuous Take-off location and the modules present location. If the Takeoff location is too far away, they'll probably not bother, but they might… Who knows?

But these are only fanciful imaginings… I have a Mini 2 and I fly recreationally and commercially and at this moment, I do not need to be RID Compliant and I am hopeful and even planning on that the RID-Day will be postponed at least a year, so I do not have a module at this time. They are still toooooo expensive…

And I renewed all my Part 107 FAA Authorizations for a year in case the RID-Day occurs… I am beginning to feel like John Connor in the "Terminator Series…"

 

[rjwmorrell]

Here is what I've found with a bit more searching.

The content of an RID packet is defined in CFR §89.305 Minimum message elements broadcast by standard remote identification unmanned aircraft.

Altitude data is specified in paragraph

(c) An indication of the geometric altitude of the control station.​

and paragraph

(e) An indication of the geometric altitude of the unmanned aircraft.​

From Introduction to Performance and Flying Qualities Flight Testing - Purdue College of Engineering, "geometric altitude" is defined as, "the actual height of an object or aircraft above sea level".

Looks like the GPS altitude to me.

That's the only way Remote ID would be useful, to report an actual altitude above sea level. Relative height of the drone (or controller) after its powered on at a location is meaningless.

 

[LoudThunder]

That's the only way Remote ID would be useful, to report an actual altitude above sea level. Relative height of the drone (or controller) after its powered on at a location is meaningless.

They are trying to take all situations into account… A Pilot might take off from a valley and fly up-hill, it is not a stretch of the imagination for the drone to be flying over 400-feet higher than the controller or Take-off location while only being only few feet above the actual ground level…

On the other hand, the Pilot might take off from the hill-side and fly down into the valley, then the indicated altitude would be in the negative range, also a "meaningless value…"

President Lincoln said it, but he did not originate it… “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time”.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

As for the two references, they are not contradictorily they are for different situations…

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
§ 89.305 Minimum Message Elements Broadcast By Standard Remote Identification Unmanned Aircraft.

This reference is for RID Compliant Unmanned Aircraft… and the extra paragraph: (h) An indication of the emergency status of the unmanned aircraft. Is only possible since the RID Signal is coming from the Unmanned Aircraft…

-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=
§ 89.315 Minimum Message Elements Broadcast By Remote Identification Broadcast Modules.

This reference is for non-Rid Compliant Unmanned Aircraft that require the addition of a Remote RID Module… That extra Paragraph (h) in "305" is not an option in this section since the RID Module has no communication with the Unmanned Aircraft…

 

[Droning on and on...]

Actually, the correct regulation governing the Broadcast requirements of a RID Module is:

§ 89.315 Minimum Message Elements Broadcast By Remote Identification Broadcast Modules.

Correct.

And unsurprisingly, specify Geometric Altitude in para (c) and (f) as the reported altitude for the aircraft and the take off location of the module. Basically approx. MSL.

I assumed (correctly) that the regulations would not specify a different altitude datum for remote modules than integrated RID. As the question I was addressing was what altitude measure was being transmitted with RID, §89.315 seem more than adequate to answer the question, and dispel the mistaken notion that height over takeoff was the transmitted altitude measure.