What is the largest print we can make from a 20mp file (P4P,Mavic 3, etc), or from stitched Panos ?

[jephoto]

Hi gang,

This is a question for people who are actually making QUALITY prints for sale. I've been a photographer for 40 some years. Shot with many many cameras & formats. Rarely needed to make veery large prints - although for some commercial shoots have had very large prints or I should say PRINTED photos done on large format printers that only needed ~72 to 110 pixels per inch to make huge enlargements. 11' tall from a Nikon D300 (12mp I think) file.
Once had a 3 frame pano from my Phantom 3 Pro made into a billboard. THAT was cool....
But the viewing distance on those things was pretty far back and it worked.

What I want to know now is how large can I go with a Drone photo - single frame 20mp, and with multi frame panos of a QUALITY print. One that people will purchase & frame in their home.
I know that some of you do this now. I know with things like Gigapixel AI we can push the size a bit more. Inkjet prints can be very well done.
Some of my multi-row panos end up in the 30~50mp range in size, almost as big as my Nikon D850 as far as actual pixel dimensions.

So, what is realistic in the largest art quality print I can offer people. I don't want to say - "sure I can make a 20"x 60" pano" or larger, and have it looking crappy.
What are you all doing and what methods are you using to get to that size?

Example - the full size file of the image below after stitching is 11,180 x 2901 pixels or 37.26" x 9.27" @ 300ppi. How large can this go and still look excellent?

 

[FLDave]

Do you want good enough (300 dpi) or excellent (600 dpi)? Make some small prints and decide which quality works for you. The printing process might also make a different (sublimation or dots).

 

[slup]

...This is a question for people who are actually making QUALITY prints for sale.

Now I'm just a hobbyist... but I bet the sweet spot will be 300 dpi with a minimum of 200 dpi. Much above 300 usually doesn't do very much. So if trying to keep the dpi in that region... that will regulate the enlargement you can get.

 

[jephoto]

Understood. I’d never go less that 300dpi for an art print.
I’m asking what people here have done - and what printers/software and method of upsizing - if any, and what’s realistic.
The pano example I gave above I know can get a good print as is for the 37.26” @300 from a machine print or injet.
I know that Epson inkjets actually are optimal at 360dpi or multiples of.
And a single frame from my P4P I’ve printed 16x20 and a bit larger with a Costco injet (before they sold out to Shutterfly)

I want to know if I can go larger than the native res -like with Gigapixel AI- and still have it look good. Not good, excellent.
And who’s actually done it, and what lab or printer.
Also realize I need to tests, but want to get a feel for what others have done successfully.

Also don’t want to break the bank on prints.

Years ago I had an Epson 4000 inkjet. Took 17” rolls of paper and could print panoramas as long as I wanted. Did lot of excellent prints with it. Also had an expensive RIP software , ImagePrint to manage it and the color profiles.
I’m sure that made a difference too. But I didn’t print enough to keep the heads from getting clogged eventually. And the newer printers are way better now.
But not ready to spend on one of those yet.

 

[Dave Maine]

The long side of the image should be close to 360 pixels per inch for images viewed at normal viewing distance.

 

[Ralph thompson]

240 ppi is a reasonable size for most ink jet printing, once it’s printed and hung on a wall no one will see the small benefit of higher resolution. I’ve had students print the same image at multiple resolutions on good quality Epson surecolor p600 and it was impossible to see any benefit above 240 ppi Even with very close examination but I’ve printed quality images at lower res. and with little degradation. Remember if it’s a big print then you have to stand back to view it unless yr a pixel peeper, the subtended angle gets smaller with distance and so resolution effectively increases.
You have a nice image, congrats. The attached was printed at 240 ppi, it’s 48” long.

 

[RockyMtns]

I use a Mavic 2Pro....Without considerations of resolution as discussed above, I've had 2' X 3' prints made using online vendors. Those prints are of excellent quality.....I strongly believe they could be sold commercially assuming the customers like the photo subject.

 

[jephoto]

240 ppi is a reasonable size for most ink jet printing, once it’s printed and hung on a wall no one will see the small benefit of higher resolution. I’ve had students print the same image at multiple resolutions on good quality Epson surecolor p600 and it was impossible to see any benefit above 240 ppi Even with very close examination but I’ve printed quality images at lower res. and with little degradation. Remember if it’s a big print then you have to stand back to view it unless yr a pixel peeper, the subtended angle gets smaller with distance and so resolution effectively increases.
You have a nice image, congrats. The attached was printed at 240 ppi, it’s 48” long.

Thanks. This is the kind of info I needed.
Now to find a reasonable lab so I can get an idea of costs. Someone wants to buy a print at various sizes. Also one that will do pano sizes, not just standard rectangles.
I miss having my own printer, but at the moment it’s just not economically justifiable.
Appreciate the info.

 

[rtclibbon]

My Mavic 2Pro has given me some surprisingly good results. Attached is a panorama stitched myself from 9 or 12 drone shots (I forget) and is sharp at 24x55" 300dpi, so a file of 338mb. One shot is not enough for this quality.
www.clibbongallery.com

 

[jephoto]

My Mavic 2Pro has given me some surprisingly good results. Attached is a panorama stitched myself from 9 or 12 drone shots (I forget) and is sharp at 24x55" 300dpi, so a file of 338mb. One shot is not enough for this quality.
www.clibbongallery.com
View attachment 161825

Very nice! I frequently do multi row Panoramas. 2 x 3 to 5 frames 3 or 4 x 5 frames, etc..
I have a couple I did last season that are over 9000 x 3000 pixels. With three rows and probably five shots across.
That’s what I love about doing the multi row Panoramas. Get in closer, have much better detail, and a different vantage point than if you had the back way off to get the same field of view.

 

[jephoto]

My Mavic 2Pro has given me some surprisingly good results. Attached is a panorama stitched myself from 9 or 12 drone shots (I forget) and is sharp at 24x55" 300dpi, so a file of 338mb. One shot is not enough for this quality.
www.clibbongallery.com
View attachment 161825

RT- where are you getting your prints made? What kind of printer and paper etc.? This is the kind of thing I’m interested in.
Check out your gallery, excellent work!

 

[Ralph thompson]

Thanks. This is the kind of info I needed.
Now to find a reasonable lab so I can get an idea of costs. Someone wants to buy a print at various sizes. Also one that will do pano sizes, not just standard rectangles.
I miss having my own printer, but at the moment it’s just not economically justifiable.
Appreciate the info.

Printing is a very pleasurable task, nothing more satisfying that achieving a great result and hanging on the wall. However it will almost always the expensive option especially with todays ink prices (8 cartridges in the P600 costing $50 a piece) and the fact that you'll often do repeat prints to get it right. You need to find a good pro level printing service which should be available in most big cities. Somewhere where you can get to know knowledgable people, discuss what you need. The cost of commercial printing today is peanuts.

 

[Ralph thompson]

RT- where are you getting your prints made? What kind of printer and paper etc.? This is the kind of thing I’m interested in.
Check out your gallery, excellent work!

I print myself on an Epson Surecolor P600 mainly because this was part of my work previously. I'm not sure I'd go out today and buy a printer. You have to maintain them, you really need to make prints frequently or the jets dry up. The ink (as said previously) is ridiculously expensive today and third party inks have their issues. Good quality paper is also expensive, I use Hannemuhle Fine Art Baryta for myself. If you can find a local printer, get to know the guys, you'll most likely be happy with the results then if you find your doing lots of prints, a printer purchase might be an option.

 

[rtclibbon]

RT- where are you getting your prints made? What kind of printer and paper etc.? This is the kind of thing I’m interested in.
Check out your gallery, excellent work!

I print on my own Epson P6000 which prints on a 24" roll of paper or canvas

 

[jephoto]

I print on my own Epson P6000 which prints on a 24" roll of paper or canvas

If I got to the point where I was selling prints regularly, I'd do this again.
Do you need a RIP to get accurate color profiles?
I definitely needed it when I owned my Epson 4000. Printing direct out of Photoshop (at the time) was impossible. They had terrible profiles.
I bought ImagePrint and got excellent results with it. But again, another added expense and now yearly with subscriptions.
Also you could gang different size prints and B&W as well as color and print them out efficiently on a roll to make the best use of the roll on a single run. And totally custom pano sizes.
Hopefully the newer printers or recent versions of Photoshop have better profiles now that you don't need the 3rd party RIP

 

[MavicAir2Marc]

300 DPI is the printing industry standard. If your final DPI is 300, you should have no issue. 72 DPI is considered screen resolution or low resolution for printing. 150 is mid resolution mainly depending on the image and use case.

 

[CJG]

Hi gang,

This is a question for people who are actually making QUALITY prints for sale. I've been a photographer for 40 some years. Shot with many many cameras & formats. Rarely needed to make veery large prints - although for some commercial shoots have had very large prints or I should say PRINTED photos done on large format printers that only needed ~72 to 110 pixels per inch to make huge enlargements. 11' tall from a Nikon D300 (12mp I think) file.
Once had a 3 frame pano from my Phantom 3 Pro made into a billboard. THAT was cool....
But the viewing distance on those things was pretty far back and it worked.

What I want to know now is how large can I go with a Drone photo - single frame 20mp, and with multi frame panos of a QUALITY print. One that people will purchase & frame in their home.
I know that some of you do this now. I know with things like Gigapixel AI we can push the size a bit more. Inkjet prints can be very well done.
Some of my multi-row panos end up in the 30~50mp range in size, almost as big as my Nikon D850 as far as actual pixel dimensions.

So, what is realistic in the largest art quality print I can offer people. I don't want to say - "sure I can make a 20"x 60" pano" or larger, and have it looking crappy.
What are you all doing and what methods are you using to get to that size?

Example - the full size file of the image below after stitching is 11,180 x 2901 pixels or 37.26" x 9.27" @ 300ppi. How large can this go and still look excellent?View attachment 161802

I can’t answer your question I’m afraid: I just wanted to say what an excellent Image. I wish my efforts would turn out like that!

When you say “multi-row panos” what exactly do you mean?

I get good auto-panos from my M2P. But the auto-panos on my Mini 2 always have a too-curved horizon when RAW files are imported to Lightroom so I generally have to shoot panos manually On my Mini 2

I have just invested in a Mini 3 Pro, so I will be interested to see how well the auto-pano function works on that. Having said that, the vertical/portrait abilities of the M3P means that I can go back to my old Mavic Pro habit of constructing a landscape image from a series of portrait shots.

Any tips and tricks for capturing and editing panos like the one above would be much appreciated!!

CG

 

[jephoto]

Thanks CG.
Buy multi row panos I mean rather than a single row of shots from left to right that are stitched, we actually shoot several rows. Similar to what a camera does when it’s on an auto 360 x 1 80, but just a portion of that.

You look at the area that you want to shoot and I usually do a test swivel of the drone from left to right to see how much I’ll need to pan or how many shots I’ll need to pan to get the area that I want, with a 30 to 50% overlap on each shot.
Since I live in a big city, and I shoot a lot of skylines with buildings, I want to make sure that there is not a huge amount of distortion, so I will make sure that one of my rows is dead level.
A simple one row pano is start at the left, giving yourself some generous space on the end from where you intend to end the shot because you’ll end up cropping, shoot a frame, see where the centerpoint is (always use the grid , diagonal and center point guides) , then rotate to the right until whatever landmark in the photo quotes, such as a building, or a tree, or some other detail) center point reaches the edge of the frame, shoot another frame.
See what the center point is, rotate to the right, till that point reaches the edge of the frame, shoot a frame, then do it again. Now you have three frames for a pano.

For two rows, I’ll shoot the first frame paying attention to where my horizon line is and tip the camera down until the Horizon
reaches the upper 1/3 line and shoot, use your C-1 or C-2 button to recenter the gimbal, rotate until your centerpoint, hits the edge of the frame. Shoot a frame, tip the gimbal down a third shoot, re-center, rotate, and do it again.

Now you have 2 rows, 3 frames across with generous overlap so that Lightroom or Photoshop or whatever you use for stitching I have an easy time matching up details in the frame for a seamless stitch.

Takes longer to describe it than it does to shoot it. I’ve gotten very fast. And it’s much faster than hitting the auto nine frame three roll panel and waiting for it to stitch a subpar JPEG image in Camera because I’m shooting raw.

And you can continue this as much as you want you can do two, three, four, five, eight… Frames across and news two or three rows. But the farther you go from side to side if you go more than approximately 120° field of you start getting a little bit of a fisheye effect where the center is closer to you than the ends And the landscape starts to bend.
If you’re shooting rural landscapes, sometimes you can’t even tell, but the cityscapes you definitely will. But the most important thing in the city skyline is to make sure that you have at least one row that’s completely level to anchor all those buildings without parallax distortion.

This one is prob 3 rows, maybe 4 frames accross. I’ll have to look at my original frames to be sure, but often on a scene like this my top row is level. Then I do two rows tipping down only. I See no point into tipping up and seeing an empty sky.
The advantage to doing it this way is twofold. First being, you can get closer to your foreground subjects and see more detail looking down into the area that’s near you and the second of course is that you end up with much greater resolution and detail in the scene then you would if you had to back off and shoot a single frame, that would encompass the whole area.

In my film days I had a 6 x 17 cm panoramic camera. My eye naturally looks at scenes in this format and I’m very comfortable with it.



Here’s one or I didn’t worry about keeping the buildings level. This is probably at least six frames across. It might be even seven. And the full resolution is huge. I could probably print this five or 6 feet wide. I don’t think it’s quite 180° field of you but it’s pretty close.

 

[Robert Prior]

So, what is realistic in the largest art quality print I can offer people.

It depends partly on the subject matter. Some subjects are more vulnerable to artifacts etc than others.

Also depends on how much work you want to do getting the image ready to print. I have a friend who does this professionally, and one of the costs of 'pushing' images is time spent at the computer (and running test prints).

And how much pixel-peeping do you expect? I have fine art prints I bought in the 80s that would be unacceptably fuzzy now, but back then were considered quite good. Expectations have changed.

 

[LoudThunder]

One that people will purchase & frame in their home

I am not qualified to offer any advice on Just how large any print can be made, but I will tell you that the composition has a bearing on it. If it's a nature shot, trees, water falls, etc... the resolution can go down as there are no sharp edges to get "fuzzy" but a city scape would show up fuzzy as there are numerous sharp edges, walls, windows, roofs, antennas, street lights, etc...

Finally, just a note about selling your products, remember you have to have your Part 107 License... and BTW, I visited my local library this morning. it just had it's grand re-opening after a major rebuild... All the walls that did not have book racks in front of them had the artwork of local artists and photographers mounted and almost all the works had price tags on them... If I had wanted one, the library staff would call the artist/photographer and arrange a meet and I would deal directly with artist/photographer. The library only provides the venue for viewing...

Just a thought, check your local libraries, they might also have such a program to post your photos...