Will DJI RC prevent Mavic from entering airspace where LAANC is required?

[busting_bravos]

New Mavic 3 Pro pilot.

The question: will the DJI RC controller prevent the Mavic 3 Pro from entering an area that requires LAANC authorization without such authorization?

The detail: if I take off in an uncontrolled airspace that requires no authorization simply the Notify & Fly function in aloft.ai’s Air Aware app, will the DJI RC prevent the drone from entering a nearby area that requires LAANC authorization?

Or, if I take off from an uncontrolled airspace, is avoiding controlled airspace entirely on me as the PIC?

Thanks!

 

[mavic3usa]

For sure, launching from uncontrolled airspace is entirely the responsibility of the PIC when entering controlled airspace [without authorization]. For the most part, the drone/DJI will not prevent it or stop it unless there is some sort of restriction that the drone knows about and requires in advance. I'm sure there are situations where you cannot get into some areas of controlled airspace without prior authorization (outside of the LAANC system). Unfortunately, to my knowledge, obtaining authorization from LAANC isn't directly and automatically tied to your drone when it comes to flying. However, generally you never want to fly in controlled airspace without getting the proper authorization thru LAANC even if you go thru your drone and gain authorization otherwise. As far as I know, this is how it works for the ordinary recreational flyer using the ordinary consumer drone.

I'm sure you know this but even if you only plan to fly in uncontrolled airspace, you are free to submit a LAANC request to fly in nearby controlled airspace just in case you decide to fly there during your flight. Just be sure to observe your authorized max AGL when entering a grid. You are also allowed to submit multiple LAANC requests (to account for difference max AGL in different grids) because one request across multiple grids cannot be auto-approved for higher than the lowest max AGL available across the requested area.

 

[Meta4]

New Mavic 3 Pro pilot.

The question: will the DJI RC controller prevent the Mavic 3 Pro from entering an area that requires LAANC authorization without such authorization?

Or, if I take off from an uncontrolled airspace, is avoiding controlled airspace entirely on me as the PIC?

Your controller won't do what you are asking about.
The drone itself handles this and will not enter a no-fly zone.
If you try to fly into a no-fly zone, it would be like flying into a soft, invisible wall.
You could fly up and down the wall, you could fly left and right along the wall, but couldn't fly through the wall.

 

[MS Coast]

Or, if I take off from an uncontrolled airspace, is avoiding controlled airspace entirely on me as the PIC?

Thanks!

Everything is always the responsibility of the pilot in command.

 

[rawman001]

The drone and controller are not always going to stop you from doing something stupid/illegal/unsafe. I live in Class C airspace and need LAANC every time I fly. I can fly max 300ft. There is a check box on the controller to confirm I'm authorized to fly. If I click it (even accidentally), I can fly (I always request LAANC of course.) Recently there was a new operator who flew during the TFR during an NFL playoff game. His excuse was that he thought the The complaint states that he "relied on the DJI application to tell him where he could fly and in the past the application denied him multiple times. He thought he was allowed to fly on Jan. 28 since it did not tell him he couldn’t." He was arrested and charged and may be facing federal prison:

DOJ: Pennsylvania man charged for flying drone over Ravens’ stadium during playoff game

(WHTM)– A Pennsylvania man is facing charges for flying a drone over the Baltimore Ravens – Kansas City Chiefs playoff game, according to the Department of Justice. Matthew Hebert, 44, …

www.abc27.com

 

[mavic3usa]

Your controller won't do what you are asking about.
The drone itself handles this and will not enter a no-fly zone.
If you try to fly into a no-fly zone, it would be like flying into a soft, invisible wall.
You could fly up and down the wall, you could fly left and right along the wall, but couldn't fly through the wall.

This is most likely true, if you try to enter an area that is truly a no-fly drone, your DJI probably won't allow it. However, the poster is asking about controlled airspace and for sure, controller airspace is not a no-fly zone. There is no way for the flyer to use LAANC to gain auto-approval to fly in a no-fly zone. Places like national parks, military bases, and airports and NFL football during gametime are often referred to as no-fly zones but unfortunately nothing in the drone or controller will stop a DJI from going into these places for sure but sometimes they will; no guarantees. But yes you might find these "invisible walls" erected over the true no-fly red zones like airport runways, over the White House, etc. Not the same as controlled airport or even restricted airspace. As you might remember, a fellow forum member had a visit from the government for allowing his drone to ever so slightly cross a military base boundary. Message to the original poster, keep your drone under control at all times.

 

[Xitor]

If you're in uncontrolled airspace cross that imaginary line into controlled airspace you'll get an alert. I have controlled airspace about 2 blocks from my house, and depending where I want to fly for sunset, etc. shots, I have to get LAANC. When I cross into controlled space the controller alerts me, but doesn't stop my flight.

 

[Parkerjh]

DJI geo zones have almost no similarity to FAA grid maps. To figure out what type of behavior the Drone will do when entering that area, you'd have to open up the DJI Geo zone maps.

Even if you did get LAANC ahead of time, your controller won't know that.

 

[SethB]

LAANC and DJI’s FlySafe / Geo Zones systems are completely separate. You would think DJI’s system would be closely tied to actual airspace restrictions, but it’s not.

LAANC restrictions or clearances can be acquired using an app at home or when on location if you have cell coverage. These are not transferred to the controller or drone; it’s on the pilot to get clearance and be prepared to show that clearance.

DJI’s system has multiple grades of restrictions that can prevent flight. Everything from “check this box to self-authorize”, to “must be on internet and logged in to self-authorize” to “only with a pre-approved unlock request”.

See the attached DJI map of a regional business/general aviation airport (HIO), and the color key. You can find this info and much more at fly-safe.dji.com.

Getting LAANC authorization is a first step to getting a custom unlock in DJI “Restricted Zones”, as you’ll need to submit that to DJI with your unlock request.

If you’re planning to fly an area with no cell/data service, or are unable to connect your controller to the internet via wifi / hotspot, you can request a custom unlock in advance for Restricted or Authorization Zone.

Custom unlocks need to be loaded to the controller via internet connection, then downloaded from the controller to the drone itself.

Way too many details and too much monkey-motion for DJI’s clunky and inaccurate system! DJI’s system *can prevent flying*, it isn’t always “check a box to self-authorize”.

 

[MS Coast]

LAANC and DJI’s FlySafe / Geo Zones systems are completely separate. You would think DJI’s system would be closely tied to actual airspace restrictions, but it’s not.

Way too many details and too much monkey-motion for DJI’s clunky and inaccurate system! DJI’s system *can prevent flying*, it isn’t always “check a box to self-authorize”.

DJI sells drones all around the world. It would be a herculean task to integrate the airspace regulations of even a single one of those countries into the control apps. Keeping everything up to date would require a monumental workload and it would require everyone's drones to be continually updating their controllers. Controller memory requirements would be enormous.

Instead, DJI took a simpler approach to prevent the most egregious cases of uninformed or unconcerned users from flying into dangerous airspace. It can't catch all possible intrusions, and it's a minor inconvenience for those of us who want legally fly in US controlled airspace using LAANC authorizations. But if they hadn't put something in place to keep clueless new drone owners from blundering into busy commercial and military airports, I suspect we'd be facing far more stringent regulations from the FAA and other CAAs now.

I don't want a nanny-ware system to fully govern my drone flights in accordance with every regulation. Even if it was available, I doubt that I'd be able to afford the first cost and update subscription fees that DJI would have to charge to pay for it.

 

[SethB]

DJI sells drones all around the world. It would be a herculean task to integrate the airspace regulations of even a single one of those countries into the control apps. Keeping everything up to date would require a monumental workload and it would require everyone's drones to be continually updating their controllers. Controller memory requirements would be enormous…

…I don't want a nanny-ware system to fully govern my drone flights in accordance with every regulation...

My point is that DJI is already running that system, but with inaccurate information. Much of the yellow and orange self-unlock/with-without internet areas in the map clip above are in Class G airspace.

New users are constantly dealing with confusing corp-state controls of their flying which in some cases impacts Class G that is nearby other airspace, and in other cases is nonsensical by any measure. I feel the call to help others understand this so they can navigate this burdensome system.

For example, several forum members posted above that it’s nothing to worry about, just check the box to self-authorize! That’s only true some of the time. The OP’s question was about “what do I do if I’m out of cell/data range?” The only reliable answer is to plan ahead by researching gov-regulated airspace AND corp-regulated airspace, because if one is flying DJI-designated Restricted or Authorization zones you can’t fly if you don’t have internet… unless you do your research at home and go through the multi-step process to get an unlock onto your drone. Ask me how I know…

…I don't want a nanny-ware system to fully govern my drone flights in accordance with every regulation. Even if it was available, I doubt that I'd be able to afford the first cost and update subscription fees that DJI would have to charge to pay for it.

We already have nanny-ware, we’re already paying for it, and it is much more broadly applied than the laws and regs require. It would be a relief if DJI’s restrictions were cut back to actual airspace.

My energy on this issue is that people who are fully up on and conforming their operations to the laws, regs, and airspace restrictions are routinely stopped by DJI’s nanny-ware. Those who know this can develop the skills and spend the time to navigate DJI’s FlySafe Geo Zone unlock process. Others are just out of luck. They may be great pilots within VLOS with LAANC approvals but no… DJI says no.

Granted there are idiots out there who would fly next to a commercial airliner on takeoff just because it sounds cool, and current FlySafe prevents some of that.

However, all the accurate airspace data exists and is maintained in machine-readable GIS databases. FlySafe’s map could be tied to it. Instead we have this hodge-podge.

 

[MS Coast]

Typo. That's not HBO, it's HIO or KHIO - Portland-Hillsboro Airport. Class D airspace.

I've superimposed the FAA's UAS Facility Map grid over DJI's Geo Zone Map for KHIO. (Quotation marks added to the urls to prevent them from loading content.

• "ArcGIS Web Application"
• "DJI FlySafe"

Much of the yellow and orange self-unlock/with-without internet areas in the map clip above are in Class G airspace.

Which part of the outer yellow and orange rings do you consider to be Class G airspace where DJI should not be issuing warnings?

It's interesting how DJI's outer boundary circle coincides with the FAA's circle for requiring LAANC authorization. If you're going to fly inside that circle, you need authorization and it's not practical to expect to get it on the spot when you have no internet access. Seems good that DJI raises a flag. If anything, it seems they're not being restrictive enough.

New users are constantly dealing with confusing corp-state controls of their flying which in some cases impacts Class G that is nearby other airspace, and in other cases is nonsensical by any measure.

Corp means corporate? Would you give some real examples of corporate-state airspace controls?

Not to be nonsensical, but isn't all Class G airspace near other airspace?

We already have nanny-ware, we’re already paying for it, and it is much more broadly applied than the laws and regs require. It would be a relief if DJI’s restrictions were cut back to actual airspace.

No, the DJI system does not fully echo the FAA regulations or any other civil aviation authority's regulations. It doesn't replace a pilot's need to understand and abide by those regulations. The super system you are asking for would allow pilots to ignore the airspace regulations entirely.

My energy on this issue is that people who are fully up on and conforming their operations to the laws, regs, and airspace restrictions are routinely stopped by DJI’s nanny-ware. Those who know this can develop the skills and spend the time to navigate DJI’s FlySafe Geo Zone unlock process.

It's really not that complex.

• Don't fly in airspace unless you know know it's legal in advance.
• If you don't know, use one of the simple and readily available free apps to check.
  (Rule of thumb for airports - If TSA is going to check your ID when you take a flight from that airport, you need FAA approval to fly your drone there.)
• If you need LAANC authorization, get it in advance and unlock the area on DJI's system.

Yes, it's less convenient that doing no planning and relying on your drone to ensure that you're abiding by the regulations. But drones are aircraft that require pilots. They're not failsafe toys.

However, all the accurate airspace data exists and is maintained in machine-readable GIS databases. FlySafe’s map could be tied to it. Instead we have this hodge-podge.

Where are those databases available? Are they updated daily? If the system you want is implemented, won't DJI have to require airspace database update checks before takeoff for every flight? And since some folks don't keep their firmware up to date, wouldn't a firmware update check be necessary for each flight? Both of those would require wifi or data access for every flight. Not something I'd like to see.

 

[SethB]

This will be my last post on this thread. I’m traveling, and really don’t need to convince @MS Coast or anyone else of anything at all. I have developed little patience for the threads that span multiple pages of bloviated arguments back and forth. I’m sharing my experiences, perceptions, ideas, and concerns - that’s all. I’ll explain a little more of what I wrote in two previous posts, but three is my self-imposed limit.

Typo. That's not HBO, it's HIO or KHIO - Portland-Hillsboro Airport. Class D airspace...

Quite right - HIO. I’d caught that too. I’ve only flown that area once.

…I've superimposed the FAA's UAS Facility Map grid over DJI's Geo Zone Map for KHIO. (Quotation marks added to the urls to prevent them from loading content.

• "ArcGIS Web Application"
• "DJI FlySafe"

View attachment 173367


Which part of the outer yellow and orange rings do you consider to be Class G airspace where DJI should not be issuing warnings?...

Nice graphic - it helps! You’re right in this case that the yellow and orange rings match the LAANC grid cells fairly closely. However, the gray “X” graphic shows that DJI enforces an Altitude Zone beyond the LAANC grid. I flew outside of the grid but was restricted to 140’ altitude in that Altitude Zone, which was not enough to get the shot I wanted. If you look at the legend I posted, DJI doesn’t really say what’s going to happen in a gray area. It might be a warning, or it might restrict your altitude. In this case the FAA says 400’ is OK with no LAANC clearance required, but DJI says no, not OK.

…Corp means corporate? Would you give some real examples of corporate-state airspace controls?...

That’s one. DJI is restricting flight operations that are otherwise completely legal and allowable by law and regulation. They are dictating as if they have the umbrella of law supporting their decisions. In truth sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t, and users are left with this hodge-podge of loose ends to wrangle. They are doing something that other drone manufacturers haven’t done (yet?). I could pilot my automobile or a conventional aircraft without the manufacturer’s interference, but not a DJI drone.

I think I had 7 or 8 custom unlocks last year. What a hassle. You? LAANC is a great system with several readily navigable apps and websites. The user experience of DJI FlySafe is somewhere between a small nag, to must be online, to must research and navigate a super confusing webservice, or a no-fly, depending on the area, which sometimes is not consistent with actual regs and the real airspace.

…No, the DJI system does not fully echo the FAA regulations or any other civil aviation authority's regulations. It doesn't replace a pilot's need to understand and abide by those regulations. The super system you are asking for would allow pilots to ignore the airspace regulations entirely.


It's really not that complex.

• Don't fly in airspace unless you know know it's legal in advance.
• If you don't know, use one of the simple and readily available free apps to check.
  (Rule of thumb for airports - If TSA is going to check your ID when you take a flight from that airport, you need FAA approval to fly your drone there.)
• If you need LAANC authorization, get it in advance and unlock the area on DJI's system.

Yes, it's less convenient that doing no planning and relying on your drone to ensure that you're abiding by the regulations. But drones are aircraft that require pilots. They're not failsafe toys…

Quite right, that’s the regulatory environment we fly in. I myself do all that and more, and have helped many college students get their TRUST and Pt. 107 certificates, helping them learn regs and best practices. Philosophically, I believe in education over nanny-ware.

My own experience tells me DJI does not have it right. “Unlock the area on DJI’s system” is difficult for many, and unknown to many people posting on this forum. So many threads start with “I know I’m in unrestricted airspace”, or “I have LAANC clearance”. I would much prefer that DJI either drop FlySafe, or fix its poor interface and make it known directly to registered users.

…Where are those databases available? Are they updated daily? If the system you want is implemented, won't DJI have to require airspace database update checks before takeoff for every flight? And since some folks don't keep their firmware up to date, wouldn't a firmware update check be necessary for each flight? Both of those would require wifi or data access for every flight. Not something I'd like to see.

FAA publishes airspace info (AIS) in several forms, including right here (link). They are updated regularly.

DJI already publishes GEO Zone updates regularly that update all the way to the drone. Why is there a disconnect between those updates and actual airspace restrictions?

I myself am not in favor of a switch to required updates, so, no, not something I’d like to see either.

 

[MS Coast]

This will be my last post on this thread. I’m traveling, and really don’t need to convince @MS Coast or anyone else of anything at all. I have developed little patience for the threads that span multiple pages of bloviated arguments back and forth. I’m sharing my experiences, perceptions, ideas, and concerns - that’s all. I’ll explain a little more of what I wrote in two previous posts, but three is my self-imposed limit.

I was discussing three issues, one substantive and two somewhat philosophical.

• The accuracy and appropriateness of DJI Airsense's warnings and restrictions for controlled airspace around airports, using a specific airport as an example.
• Whether the process of approving flight in controlled airspace with DJI drones is excessively complex and difficult.
• Whether DJI's Airsense system can and should should fully implement the FAA's (and presumably other CAA's) controlled airspace regulations.

The latter two are somewhat opinion based and there's no need to proceed further. The first deals entirely with fact and is highly relevant to those of us who fly near airports with controlled airspace. I've opened open a new thread to discuss it. One interesting issue is the meaning of the grey zones extending beyond runways.

Here's a link to the new thread if anyone is interested.

DJI Geo Zone vs. FAA Regulations for Controlled Airspace Around Airports?

In an earlier thread, it was said that the DJI Geo Zone is too restrictive compared to the FAA's controlled airspace limits around airports. Using the Portland - Hillsboro Airport as an example, it was said that much of the area in the orange and yellow rings of the DJI Geo Zone restrictions are...

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