Worrying about DJI Drones

[DoomMeister]

Let’s not stray from the person in question and start making generalized political statements. I think every country has its own politicians and bureaucrats that tend to not pass muster in the intellectual department. This thread is about the totally ridiculous statements being made by Brendan Carr and the effect it might possibly have on drones in the USA.

Also other robotic electronic marvels he has neurotic notions about.

 

[AliasFlyer]

I'm not especially worried. DJI's unlocking zone unlocking process is pretty simple. Annoying, but I unlock both my local areas any time I plan to fly, it takes about 2 minutes, and the unlock lasts 3 days. The proposed new restrictions (emphasis on the proposed) are only on government entities. I would be surprised, even if they are adopted, if the restrictions were extended to consumers, and even more surprised if the restrictions were retroactive to existing owners.

There are other folks with lots of regulatory experience here, so you might get a more informed opinion at some point.

When you say you unlock your local areas, are you taking about using LAANC or is there other type of unlock?

 

[Paint Rock Drones]

When you say you unlock your local areas, are you taking about using LAANC or is there other type of unlock?

DJI Flysafe prevents your drone from operating in certain locations unless "unlocked". This is different from the clearance required from the FAA which you do through LAANC (though they are often co-located). See Fly Safe - DJI

 

[Chaosrider]

The aircraft only knows height relative to takeoff. It does not know altitude AGL.

I know my Mini-2s can't do it, but there's no conceptual reason why a drone couldn't have the HW/SW needed to read out AGL altitude.

Are there any that do?

Thx,

TCS

 

[Chaosrider]

That makes sense. Since I generally launch from relatively flat ground it's basically the same, but the distinction would be important for someone flying on uneven ground (e.g. near a hill).

Or in a canyon...

;-)

TCS

 

[Paint Rock Drones]

I know my Mini-2s can't do it, but there's no conceptual reason why a drone couldn't have the HW/SW needed to read out AGL altitude.

Are there any that do?

Thx,

TCS

I just don't think it would be worth it. The drone would need another database, with ground level details. How much detail? Every little hill? What about trees, buildings, towers, etc? In a manned aircraft at 500+ feet it makes some sense to have electronics that give you AGL. And you look out the window to see if there is a tower or a building, especially when you are at lower altitudes. But a drone, which is supposed to fly at at most 400 AGL cares about every little branch of every tree, and they don't even stay in the same place all the time if it's windy. Perhaps if you want to terrain skim the desert it might make sense, but even then, to be useful you would need the database to know about every rock.

 

[DoomMeister]

I know my Mini-2s can't do it, but there's no conceptual reason why a drone couldn't have the HW/SW needed to read out AGL altitude.

Are there any that do?

Thx,

TCS

There are systems for mapping that do use a DEM database to program missions to collect data from a specified AGL altitude. The Yuneec H520 or H520e can do this and most likely some DJI systems. But to my knowledge, for telemetry being reported back to the controller they all report altitude relative to takeoff.

 

[Chaosrider]

I just don't think it would be worth it. The drone would need another database, with ground level details. How much detail? Every little hill? What about trees, buildings, towers, etc? In a manned aircraft at 500+ feet it makes some sense to have electronics that give you AGL. And you look out the window to see if there is a tower or a building, especially when you are at lower altitudes. But a drone, which is supposed to fly at at most 400 AGL cares about every little branch of every tree, and they don't even stay in the same place all the time if it's windy. Perhaps if you want to terrain skim the desert it might make sense, but even then, to be useful you would need the database to know about every rock.

I've flown Part 61 aircraft in the mountains for 40 years. Flying out of Torrance, CA, my instructor took me to Big Bear Lake on our first dual cross-country.

When you're flying in the mountains, AGL is very important information. Part 61 or drone!

I live on one wall of a canyon. The creek at the bottom is 150 ft below me, the pass into Lake Tahoe, Spooner Summit, is 2000 ft above me at about 7200 ft.

I don't need every branch. Give me +/- 20 feet, and I'd be perfectly happy!



TCS

 

[DoomMeister]

I've flown Part 61 aircraft in the mountains for 40 years. Flying out of Torrance, CA, my instructor took me to Big Bear Lake on our first dual cross-country.

When you're flying in the mountains, AGL is very important information. Part 61 or drone!

I live on one wall of a canyon. The creek at the bottom is 150 ft below me, the pass into Lake Tahoe, Spooner Summit, is 2000 ft above me at about 7200 ft.

I don't need every branch. Give me +/- 20 feet, and I'd be perfectly happy!



TCS

So you have learned that GPS on drones is not accurate enough on its own to give AGL while in flight.

The other issue is the barometric IC used in drones is internal to the aircraft and ends up being heated as the flight progresses. This causes a higher density altitude and results in some users wondering why the reported altitude when they land at the takeoff site is reported as a few to several feet lower. Some of this issue could be avoided if the barometric IC was located on the underside of the aircraft and exposed to external air. The other issue with them is the inability to adjust the barometer to a known altitude at the beginning of the flight as is done in General Aviation.

 

[Paint Rock Drones]

I've flown Part 61 aircraft in the mountains for 40 years. Flying out of Torrance, CA, my instructor took me to Big Bear Lake on our first dual cross-country.

When you're flying in the mountains, AGL is very important information. Part 61 or drone!

I live on one wall of a canyon. The creek at the bottom is 150 ft below me, the pass into Lake Tahoe, Spooner Summit, is 2000 ft above me at about 7200 ft.

I don't need every branch. Give me +/- 20 feet, and I'd be perfectly happy!



TCS

Fortunately whether or not to give you the +/- 20 ft. database is not my call. But I have also flown part 61 for many years, including IFR. Yes, AGL is important. But that does not mean I fly below 500 feet other than to take off and land (and not even that close in mountains). Why? Because most places there are trees and towers sticking up well above the AGL shown on my sectional, GPS display or even approach plates. Telephone poles are more than 20 feet high. There might be GIS databases that give you something close to +/- 20 ft. including manmade structures, but only for localized areas. And I can't imagine a drone having enough storage to house and computational power to process even those in realtime at the moment. So I would not hold your breath.

 

[Donnie Frank]

I'm worried that my significant investment in DJI drones will be denied use in the U.S. with the current state of U.S. / China affairs.
I'm not certain but it seems like the U.S. is denying the official purchase of DJI drones for the federal government (maybe state governments too & local police?).
I have also been concerned with the frustrating DJI locking of their drones in U.S. airspace, just doesn't seem right even though there are safety reasons, but seems like DJI should just back off before they lost MANY customers. I love the DJI products but ... we will see how all of this plays out.

Are other pilots in U.S. worried? Love to hear your comments.

The answer and the cure for me has been two fold:

* Legacy products (software, hardware, firmware)
* Hacking (software and firmware).

I've been operating like this for years (since 2014). I fly every week with nary an issue.

I've endured one flight restriction and one software issue when software somehow magically updated on me. That was years ago. The cure was to roll it back (a hack in the Appleverse).

The restriction was the inability to access Intelligent Flight Modes within 1 mile of a Class D airport. I was able to fly the mission manually. Fortunately, it was a very small job - about 10-acre mapping job. As of this writing I still haven't worked around accessing Intelligent Flight Modes within 1 mile of Class B, C, D airspace, but I haven't had to. Every other job has been well over a mile from restricted air space.

D

 

[Boxman]

Whilst I am not sure what "locking" you are talking about, given the number of idiotic videos that get posted on the likes of youtube it would not surprised me if governments started to compel manufacturers to irreversibly build in height and range limits that are in line with that government's own drone flying laws and likewise build in irreversible exclusion zones.

However I think it would be quite difficult to try and enforce such a restrictions on drones that were already in the hands of the users. Not everyone updates.

I have all my drones set to 400 feet and my flight log shows it if the question ever comes up .

 

[snowghost]

I had to fly at well over 1000’ to be 150’ AGL or so above a ridge line. I note those altitudes in my log along with the circumstances.

 

[Chaosrider]

So you have learned that GPS on drones is not accurate enough on its own to give AGL while in flight.

The other issue is the barometric IC used in drones is internal to the aircraft and ends up being heated as the flight progresses. This causes a higher density altitude and results in some users wondering why the reported altitude when they land at the takeoff site is reported as a few to several feet lower. Some of this issue could be avoided if the barometric IC was located on the underside of the aircraft and exposed to external air. The other issue with them is the inability to adjust the barometer to a known altitude at the beginning of the flight as is done in General Aviation.

It's not that the GPS is inaccurate. It just requires a separate database to be able to match the GPS info to the group elevation info. Essentially an electronic sectional.

Which exists, but that may not yet have been integrated into any consumer drone products yet.

Thx,

TCS

 

[Paint Rock Drones]

It's not that the GPS is inaccurate. It just requires a separate database to be able to match the GPS info to the group elevation info. Essentially an electronic sectional.

Which exists, but that may not yet have been integrated into any consumer drone products yet.

Thx,

TCS

Do you think it would be useful to a drone operator to have AGL at the resolution of a sectional? Where I fly, I care a great deal about things that are smaller than what is depicted on a section (e.g. telephone poles, individual trees, etc.)

 

[snowghost]

Do you think it would be useful to a drone operator to have AGL at the resolution of a sectional? Where I fly, I care a great deal about things that are smaller than what is depicted on a section (e.g. telephone poles, individual trees, etc.)

My neighbor's 80' cypress trees? I don't think we're that granular yet. In the future, maybe some integration with Google Earth/Maps.

 

[Chaosrider]

Do you think it would be useful to a drone operator to have AGL at the resolution of a sectional? Where I fly, I care a great deal about things that are smaller than what is depicted on a section (e.g. telephone poles, individual trees, etc.)

I fly well above the individual trees, and there are no telephone polls where I live. The utilities are all underground.

In my personal flying, I'd like to have AGL as a partial antidote to the lack of depth perception. When I zing across the canyon from my rear flight deck, how close am I *really* to those trees on the other side? I'm gradually developing a sense for that, but it would be much easier if I had the AGL information.

There are lots of tress here in the 100 ft tall range, but none in the 200 ft range that I'm aware of. So, if I know my AGL, and keep it not less than 200 ft AGL, no tree collision risk!

Unless I'm flying the Northwest Passage...

;-)

Thx!

TCS

 

[Pixeldawg]

I would be more worried about the chips they are adding to the list. Many other products could become harder to get if they black list chips that are already in short supply.

I am happy this is not a concern for me. Some of the phones and other electronics that are being produced here in Chain are actually fantastic and seems a shame that politics gets in the way of what is actually really good technology.