400 feet: law or guidline?

[motopokep]

Can anyone point to a law that says we can't fly drones above 400 feet? I'm looking at the FAA site and it states "fly your drone at or below 400 feet" in the Drone Safety Tips section. I'm looking at my certificate and it says that under "guidelines"

Then the site has 2 options to register, under Special Rule for Model Aircraft Section 336, or under Part 107 small UAS. Part 107 states "fly ...at or below 400 feet". Special Rule Section 336, for hobby/recreation only, does not mention a 400 feet limit.

I looked up the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012, Section 336. It does NOT mention "400 feet". It does have a catch-all provision against endangering the national airspace system.

So I am wondering, am I missing something, or we can fly with no limit by paying $5 and not taking any class, while Part 107 non-hobbyists, who have to take a class and get a license, and by doing so, they are limiting themselves to 400 feet height and 100 mph, and must make drone available to FAA for inspection, keep records about the drone, and must report to FAA any crash that results in $500 or more in damage.

So again, am I missing something, or for most of us who are non-commercial hobbyists, there is no limitation?

Disclaimer: I am not looking to start a moral and safety discussion about making a bad name for drone enthusiasts. I have never flown above 400 feet because I live 30 minutes from a major airport and 15 minutes from a medium sized airport, so I got planes of all sizes flying quite low every 5 minutes from all directions and I know better than to kill 225 people in the air and possibly another couple hundred on the ground. But one day I would like to drive somewhere to bumblef*ck country and take this baby way up there

 

[sar104]

There is currently no 400 ft limit for Part 101 recreational flight. It's exempt from that and all other Part 107 regulations by the Act that you mentioned, and the AMA Safety Code does not impose an altitude limit either. The FAA confirmed that recreational flight has no altitude limit in a letter to the AMA in July 2016. That's not to say that they won't pursue recklessly high flying under the more general provision of 101.43, however.

 

[motopokep]

Ok, in the end makes no sense to place so many restrictions on people who go through the training and get certified, while the average Joe is allowed to "floor" the throttle and go to "outer space".

 

[Qoncussion]

There is absolutely NO law. It has been well discussed here. It is only a guideline, and it is not illegal - as a hobby flyer to exceed 400'. It's just strongly recommended that you don't.

 

[sar104]

Ok, in the end makes no sense to place so many restrictions on people who go through the training and get certified, while the average Joe is allowed to "floor" the throttle and go to "outer space".

Agreed, but that was the consequence of Congress passing Section 336. It tied the FAA's hands.

 

[Robert Mitchell]

Can anyone point to a law that says we can't fly drones above 400 feet? I'm looking at the FAA site and it states "fly your drone at or below 400 feet" in the Drone Safety Tips section. I'm looking at my certificate and it says that under "guidelines"

Then the site has 2 options to register, under Special Rule for Model Aircraft Section 336, or under Part 107 small UAS. Part 107 states "fly ...at or below 400 feet". Special Rule Section 336, for hobby/recreation only, does not mention a 400 feet limit.

I looked up the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012, Section 336. It does NOT mention "400 feet". It does have a catch-all provision against endangering the national airspace system.

So I am wondering, am I missing something, or we can fly with no limit by paying $5 and not taking any class, while Part 107 non-hobbyists, who have to take a class and get a license, and by doing so, they are limiting themselves to 400 feet height and 100 mph, and must make drone available to FAA for inspection, keep records about the drone, and must report to FAA any crash that results in $500 or more in damage.

So again, am I missing something, or for most of us who are non-commercial hobbyists, there is no limitation?

Disclaimer: I am not looking to start a moral and safety discussion about making a bad name for drone enthusiasts. I have never flown above 400 feet because I live 30 minutes from a major airport and 15 minutes from a medium sized airport, so I got planes of all sizes flying quite low every 5 minutes from all directions and I know better than to kill 225 people in the air and possibly another couple hundred on the ground. But one day I would like to drive somewhere to bumblef*ck country and take this baby way up there

The only thing you're missing is that just because you take the test, and become certified, you can still fly under the recreational guidelines at any time, as long as the mission is not commercial in nature. I am part 107 and can choose to fly for fun under 101 any time I choose.

 

[motopokep]

very good responses, and correct, I didn't realize a 107 pilot can fly for recreation and not abide by the 400 foot rule. Fly safe everyone.

 

[STUFF2C]

This?

http://www.ama10.wildapricot.org/resources/AMA UAS REGULATORY GUIDANCE FOR CITIES _ LAW ENFORCEMENT PDF.pdf

 

[JDawg]

We need more threads about this...

 

[bobec231]

Folks,
Recreational or Commercial you MUST abide by the FAA rules. The FAA has made it idiot proof. All pic's should be using the FAA's new app. "B4UFly". I suggest you install it on your device. It will tag your location and show you if you are good to go or you are in restricted space. Find an airport near you then zoom in.... it will show very detailed info.

The only difference between comercial and receational pic is a commercial pic is compinsated by a 3rd party

The registration requirement is a must for all drones .55 to
Hope this helps

 

[Broken Arrow]

Ever heard the saying "Give them enough rope to hang them selves"? This comes to mind when I hear people flying over 400' under Recreational Rules.

 

[JDawg]

Poor Horsey

From sar104


Subpart E—Special Rule for Model Aircraft
Source: Docket FAA-2015-0150, Amdt. 101-9, 81 FR 42208, June 28, 2016, unless otherwise noted.

§101.41 Applicability.
This subpart prescribes rules governing the operation of a model aircraft (or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft) that meets all of the following conditions as set forth in section 336 of Public Law 112-95:

(a) The aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use;

(b) The aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;

(c) The aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization;

(d) The aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft; and

(e) When flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation.

§101.43 Endangering the safety of the National Airspace System.
No person may operate model aircraft so as to endanger the safety of the national airspace system.

There is no altitude limit included, but 101.41 (b) states that "the aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization".

Currently that means, effectively, the AMA. If you look at the AMA Safety Handbook, it has no general altitude limit, but mentions staying under 400 ft within 3 miles of airports. This exact question was raised by the AMA with the FAA, who provided a written response confirming that there is no altitude limit for recreational flight. That's the law - and supersedes all recommendations and pleas by the FAA on their website.

Looking ahead, in Section 349 of the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2018, which repeals the Special Rule for Model Aircraft that prevented the FAA from regulating recreational flight, the following provision has been added:

In Class G airspace, the aircraft is flown from the surface to not more than 400 feet above ground level and complies with all airspace restrictions and prohibitions.

However, until that is implemented by the FAA in 14 CFR, it does not apply.

 

[gerrymad]

This seems like a pretty clear discussion, but I am a bit confused. When I first got my Mavic Air I did a lot of research about regulations. One thing I recall reading (I thought it was actually on the FAA site) was that the 400 feet was interpreted as 400 feet above the object below and was in fact a 400 foot bubble. The example was actually given of flying around a tall building that you could fly 400 feet higher than the top of the building and extend that altitude out beyond the edge of the building. Keep in mind that this could be a totally false memory or that I am flat out wrong, but I really do remember reading that. If I am nuts, please be polite. Thanks.

 

[sar104]

This seems like a pretty clear discussion, but I am a bit confused. When I first got my Mavic Air I did a lot of research about regulations. One thing I recall reading (I thought it was actually on the FAA site) was that the 400 feet was interpreted as 400 feet above the object below and was in fact a 400 foot bubble. The example was actually given of flying around a tall building that you could fly 400 feet higher than the top of the building and extend that altitude out beyond the edge of the building. Keep in mind that this could be a totally false memory or that I am flat out wrong, but I really do remember reading that. If I am nuts, please be polite. Thanks.

That is how the 400 ft rule is defined for Part 107 flight:

§107.51 Operating limitations for small unmanned aircraft.​

​

A remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system must comply with all of the following operating limitations when operating a small unmanned aircraft system:​

​

(a) The groundspeed of the small unmanned aircraft may not exceed 87 knots (100 miles per hour).​

​

(b) The altitude of the small unmanned aircraft cannot be higher than 400 feet above ground level, unless the small unmanned aircraft:​

​

(1) Is flown within a 400-foot radius of a structure; and​

​

(2) Does not fly higher than 400 feet above the structure's immediate uppermost limit.​

​

(c) The minimum flight visibility, as observed from the location of the control station must be no less than 3 statute miles. For purposes of this section, flight visibility means the average slant distance from the control station at which prominent unlighted objects may be seen and identified by day and prominent lighted objects may be seen and identified by night.​

​

(d) The minimum distance of the small unmanned aircraft from clouds must be no less than:​

​

(1) 500 feet below the cloud; and​

​

(2) 2,000 feet horizontally from the cloud.​

It does not apply to recreational (Part 101) flight.

 

[gerrymad]

That is how the 400 ft rule is defined for Part 107 flight:

§107.51 Operating limitations for small unmanned aircraft.​

​

A remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system must comply with all of the following operating limitations when operating a small unmanned aircraft system:​

​

(a) The groundspeed of the small unmanned aircraft may not exceed 87 knots (100 miles per hour).​

​

(b) The altitude of the small unmanned aircraft cannot be higher than 400 feet above ground level, unless the small unmanned aircraft:​

​

(1) Is flown within a 400-foot radius of a structure; and​

​

(2) Does not fly higher than 400 feet above the structure's immediate uppermost limit.​

​

(c) The minimum flight visibility, as observed from the location of the control station must be no less than 3 statute miles. For purposes of this section, flight visibility means the average slant distance from the control station at which prominent unlighted objects may be seen and identified by day and prominent lighted objects may be seen and identified by night.​

​

(d) The minimum distance of the small unmanned aircraft from clouds must be no less than:​

​

(1) 500 feet below the cloud; and​

​

(2) 2,000 feet horizontally from the cloud.​

It does not apply to recreational (Part 101) flight.

Thanks. I thought I read that somewhere. So while 107 does have a 400 foot limit it seems there is flexibility to fly over buildings, etc. I am planning on going for my 107 so I would have run into that question soon enough. Thanks again for the reply.

 

[LowCountryFlyer]

These guys do a pretty darn good job explaining the difference between operating your drone under Section 336 of Public Law 112-95 (which applies under 14 CFR 101.41 or under 14 CFR Part 107.

FAA Rules and Regulations for Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS)

My own thoughts on this are that:

1) Under Part 107, you cannot legally fly a sUAS at altitudes over 400 ft AGL unless said sUAS is within 400ft of a building, terrain, or structure (see §107.51). You CAN however obtain a waiver from the FAA to conduct a Part 107 flight at altitudes exceeding 400 ft AGL. This would have to be done in advance of the proposed flight so Notices to Airmen (NOTAMs) can be issued for the area in question at the proposed flight time. Permits would be a one time deal per use and valid only at the proposed departure time and within the proposed area of flight operations.

2) You CAN exceed the 400 ft AGL limit when flying the drone under §101.41, provided the drone remains within Line of Sight (LOS) at all times using standard unaided Mk 01 eyeballs issued at birth. And for most Mavic pilots here, that's gonna limit you to about 1000ft AGL operations without pushing it.

As for the reasons why this is in place, as a pilot and flight instructor on airplanes, this goes back to the Supreme Court case U.S. v Causby which states that persons living within the US are entitled to freedom of travel within the navigable airspace of the United States. Navigable airspace is defined as "airspace above the minimum safe altitudes of flight prescribed by the Civil Aeronautics Authority." 49 U.S.C. § 180. Helicopters are limited to a min 500 ft AGL over populated areas unless taking off and landing and airplanes a min of 1000 ft AGL (500 ft AGL for rural areas). This offers a minimum 100 ft buffer between manned and unmanned aircraft for traffic separation. As mentioned, the FAA will allow sUAS activity at altitudes higher than 400 ft AGL, but likes to be notified so it can warn pilots via NOTAMs prior to taking flight in manned aircraft of the dangers and limits the activity to certain areas at certain times. This is why the FAA asks you to contact ATC or the airport manager of any airport you intend to operate you drone within 5 miles of under Section 336.

I can tell you the FAA (and pilots in general!) do not want the National Airspace System (NAS) and, in particular, controlled airspace, becoming cluttered with amateur flown sUAS. They create a collision hazard and loss of separation from other traffic.

Also, keep in mind that, even though you may register your drone under Part 107, you are still legally allowed to operate the drone under Section 336 without penalty. The reverse, however is untrue.

One personal recommendation would be if you are operating the drone above 400 ft AGL in accordance with Section 336, please keep the aircraft within Class G airspace (if you need to, get yourselves a current set of VFR Sectional Charts to make sure you comply with this). In nearly all places within the United States, that limit is 1200 ft AGL, though around airports which have instrument approaches that drops to 700 ft AGL. If you can find a few gaps where Class G extends to 14,500 ft ASL, enjoy a high flight. But again, make sure you can see the drone, know it's attitude and orientation, and yield right of way to other aircraft traffic in the area.

 

[Seth P]

This is like asking if poly carbonate safety glasses can protect agnst an 80 watt laser

 

[Drone107]

Just like 100% of passengers turning off their electronic devises at first request of stewardess. Because FAA think it may lead to a plane crash.....So far bad Boeing software leads in causing crashes. Boeing 2 : my cell phone 0.
But somehow FAA let them fly.

 

[sar104]

Just like 100% of passengers turning off their electronic devises at first request of stewardess. Because FAA think it may lead to a plane crash.....So far bad Boeing software leads in causing crashes. Boeing 2 : my cell phone 0.

That rule no longer exists - you don't have to turn everything off. Cellular radios should be off, but that's related mostly to cellular network requirements.

 

[BigAl07]

Just like 100% of passengers turning off their electronic devises at first request of stewardess. Because FAA think it may lead to a plane crash.....So far bad Boeing software leads in causing crashes. Boeing 2 : my cell phone 0.
But somehow FAA let them fly.

That's quite a reach isn't it? Tsk Tsk