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I stand by my point that; manned aviation is part of modern society and currently drones are not. [...]
[...] aviation is not just about what flies in the sky - how many jobs, businesses and complete industries are built around manned aviation?

Once upon a time, in what was then modern society, there was an entire street-cleaning industry that specialized in nothing but shovelling and removing horse droppings from the pavement. Improvements in transportation technology eliminated those jobs.

That is the critical part to modern society; along with the commerce and tax revenue. Those are things that are weighed against loss of life.
Jobs, commerce, and tax revenue make the fatality rate of General Aviation acceptable? Eh, say what?

Drones as we see them today, are simply a drop in the bucket by comparison to the overall big picture.
Some people today see drones as a threat to jobs, commerce, and tax revenue. But, someday soon, unmanned aviation will dominate the aviation industry. Already most commercial airliners practically fly themselves. A huge portion of every flight is controlled entirely by the auto-pilot. The human pilots are merely there to dial in changes to the auto-pilot settings whenever required. Altitude and course changes are done by turning a selector dial on the auto-pilot and pushing a button to engage those changes. The auto-pilot ensures those changes are executed more smoothly than a ham-fisted human can do it. Human crew are still there [for now] to take over manual control whenever there's an actual need for intervention.

We are lucky that there has not been a fatality due to a drone but that will change eventually. What will these conversations look like then?
I'm not saying drones are zero risk. But the actual risk is certainly far less than what the media makes it out to be. All of the resulting regulatory burden has been driven, not by actual data, but by the repeated hysteria of "just think of what could have happened if only...", while [so far] nothing has happened.

Canada is famous for claiming the first ever mid-air collision in the entire world between a "commercial airliner and a drone". It was a small twin engine turboprop carrying (six?) passengers on approach to Quebec City airport that reported hitting "something" which may or may not have been a drone. It caused quite an uproar in the media and immediately resulted in crazy new Interim Rules being issued practically overnight, until proper regulations could be published years later. Whatever actually was hit, the only damage to the plane was a barely visible tiny dimple and scratch in the leading edge of one wing. The plane landed safely, and after a quick look at the "damage", they boarded another load of passengers and continued normal flight operations. No big deal.

The only two actual factual totally verified and documented cases in Canada of a drone colliding with manned aircraft both occurred after new regulations were published to "prevent" such potentially catastrophic occurrences, and both incidents were caused by fully licensed yet obviously unskilled and clueless drone pilots.

And strangely enough, despite these comprehensive regulations and stringent enforcement promising to keep our skies safe from drones knocking manned aircraft out of the sky, BOTH of these collisions were caused by heavy surveillance drones flown by the police!!

One occurred over busy Hwy 404 in Toronto when a police drone struck a Cessna on final approach to Buttonville Airport. The flight instructor and student pilot managed to land safely, but the plane suffered significant damage as the whole engine cowling was caved in. The police drone was destroyed.

The second incident happened in British Columbia during the Wet'suwet'en blockade and protests against the pipeline being built across their territory. The RCMP somehow managed to destroy their own expensive FLIR SkyRanger R60 surveillance drone by crashing it into their own even more expensive Eurocopter AS 350B3 helicopter! The drone was obliterated. The helicopter pilot felt only "a vibration" and decided to do a precautionary landing to check it out. There was damage to the main rotor blades and superficial damage to tail rotor and tail boom. The police had to hire another expensive helicopter to airlift their damaged helicopter out for repairs.

It is ironic that in Canada the only two verified mid-air collisions between drone and manned aircraft were caused by the police. None have occurred due to...
... 95% of drone pilots are unskilled and clueless about airspace and potential hazards they may cause with a UA.
 
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Wow! R/C tow planes and gliders? I didn't know that existed! I've loved this conversation. Learned much!

R/C gliders are serious business in Germany.

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"FYI, manned aircraft are required to have ADS-B out:"

This is NOT true. Antique aircraft that were certified non-electric are grandfathered and are not required to have ADS-B, transponder, or radio as long as they have not had an engine driven electrical system retrofitted. Most of them don't.
 
ADS-B was working well on my previous Air2S, but I already have around 90-100 hours with my Mavic 3 and still haven't received any prompt, although I have the sensitivity at max.

Not many planes had ADS-B enabled in my area yet, but I think the receiver on the Mavic 3 isn't working.
 
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"FYI, manned aircraft are required to have ADS-B out:"

This is NOT true. Antique aircraft that were certified non-electric are grandfathered and are not required to have ADS-B, transponder, or radio as long as they have not had an engine driven electrical system retrofitted. Most of them don't.
Please, if you are going to quote me, include my screen name and use the entire quote, which remains largely true.

FYI, manned aircraft are required to have ADS-B out:
  • Class A, B, and C airspace;
  • Class E airspace at or above 10,000 feet msl, excluding airspace at and below 2,500 feet agl;
  • Within 30 nautical miles of a Class B primary airport (the Mode C veil);
  • Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of Class B or Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet;
  • Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico, at and above 3,000 feet msl, within 12 nm of the U.S. coast.
Now, aircraft without electrical systems (as defined by the FAA) such as your antique aircraft, gliders and balloons do have some small leeway regarding the Mode C veil but these craft better not enter Class A, B, or C airspace. Nor can they fly at or above 10,000' (or above a Class B or C ceiling).
 
"FYI, manned aircraft are required to have ADS-B out:"

This is NOT true. Antique aircraft that were certified non-electric are grandfathered and are not required to have ADS-B, transponder, or radio as long as they have not had an engine driven electrical system retrofitted. Most of them don't.
There are many far more common cases where ADS-B is not required. For instance, private aircraft operating without a flight plan. Military aircraft frequently operate without ADS-B.

DS-B and DJI AirSense will not warn you of all aircraft.
 
There are many far more common cases where ADS-B is not required. For instance, private aircraft operating without a flight plan. Military aircraft frequently operate without ADS-B.

DS-B and DJI AirSense will not warn you of all aircraft.
Flight plan has nothing to do with ADS-B requirements so far as I know. Could you cite the reg? But for sure the military flies by its own rules. I'd hate to be flying a military mission with ADS-B broadcasting. 😂
 
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Flight plan has nothing to do with ADS-B requirements so far as I know. Could you cite the reg? But for sure the military flies by its own rules. I'd hate to be flying a military mission with ADS-B broadcasting. 😂


Required only in Class A, B, C, and most E airspace. Exemptions are defined for defense, security, intelligence, and law enforcement.

I don't know of an FAA rule that specifically mentions flight plans.

I live about 6 miles from an Air Force base. About 60% of the aircraft I've checked with a phone app are transmitting. Almost none of the fighters do.
 
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Military aircraft frequently operate without ADS-B.

The sectional map in our area shows the airspace above our house marked as a aerobatics practice area and it is used by the local flying club for all their student pilot flights. They're always doing steep turns, unusual attitudes, stall recovery, etc. I'm used to planes flying overhead then suddenly have their engine noise quit.

I looked it up once, I think they need to stay above 3000' (or maybe it was 2000'). In any case, there's never any danger of conflict with my drone flights.

But every now and then a pair of very noisy jet aircraft come scorching through here, flying round and round, for our own personal airshow. I can't even recognize what type of plane they are. I've tried finding them on FlightRadar24, but they're not broadcasting ADS-B out. I figured they must be military doing training flights here.
 
In Canada the only two verified mid-air collisions between drone and manned aircraft were caused by the police.
Interesting!

Just yesterday, the Transportation Safety Board of Canada released their final report (with photos) on the Buttonville Airport mid-air collision involving a Cessna 172 and DJI Matrice M210 flown by the York Regional Police.

Read it here: Air transportation safety investigation report A21O0069 - Transportation Safety Board of Canada

The report answers some of the questions I was curious about. It's a DJI drone. How was it able to fly within the Red Restricted Zone around the airport? Well, the police had an unlock from DJI. But they did not have authorization from the control tower.

"Due to the nature of the police operation underway, which involved a potentially armed individual, the RPA pilot felt a sense of urgency to get the RPA airborne as soon as possible. As well, the RPA pilot had not observed any traffic in the area during the set up of the RPA and had heard no recent transmissions on the hand-held VHF radio. As a result, the RPA pilot did not request authorization."

There are plenty of interesting details in that report.
 


Required only Class A, B, C, and most E airspace. Exemptions are defined for defense, security, intelligence, and law enforcement.

I don't know of an FAA rule that specifically mentions flight plans. But aircraft not filing aren't going into the airspace where ADS-B is required.

I live about 6 miles from an Air Force base. About 60% of the aircraft I've checked with a phone app are transmitting. Almost none of the fighters do.
You don't need a flight plan to enter these airspaces. But you'd better get clearance!
 
Interesting!

Just yesterday, the Transportation Safety Board of Canada released their final report (with photos) on the Buttonville Airport mid-air collision involving a Cessna 172 and DJI Matrice M210 flown by the York Regional Police.

Read it here: Air transportation safety investigation report A21O0069 - Transportation Safety Board of Canada

The report answers some of the questions I was curious about. It's a DJI drone. How was it able to fly within the Red Restricted Zone around the airport? Well, the police had an unlock from DJI. But they did not have authorization from the control tower.

"Due to the nature of the police operation underway, which involved a potentially armed individual, the RPA pilot felt a sense of urgency to get the RPA airborne as soon as possible. As well, the RPA pilot had not observed any traffic in the area during the set up of the RPA and had heard no recent transmissions on the hand-held VHF radio. As a result, the RPA pilot did not request authorization."

There are plenty of interesting details in that report.
Wow, the VO was not aware of the VLOS requirement!? It was extremely fortunate that the RPA wasn't just a foot or so higher.
 
It was extremely fortunate that the RPA wasn't just a foot or so higher.
Indeed. Even so, it is yet another case of, "just think of what might have happened if only..."

This was a BIG drone and it caused significant damage to the Cessna. The instructor and student in the plane noted a heavy impact and thought they must have hit a bird. They landed safely and reported hitting a bird.

They only later realized it was a drone because the police subsequently contacted the airport to confess what they'd done.

The knee-jerk reaction always seems to be that MORE regulations are required, and yet the existing regulations already cover exactly this scenario, and were ignored by the police themselves!!

Wow, the VO was not aware of the VLOS requirement!?

Apparently the visual observer was untrained as to what his actual duties should be. Alan Yu posts a daily vlog, and today's news was about this TSB report. His comment is pretty funny, but not unreasonable, in that the visual observer was probably more occupied in watching the pilot's back to fend off potential interference from drone-haters and "Karens".

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Zbip57 said "would make a whole lot more sense if every manned aircraft were required to be equipped with ADS-B to prevent collisions".

What about manned aircraft that were certified under CAR 4a?
 
What about manned aircraft that were certified under CAR 4a?
I'll confess, I don't know CAR 4a is. But I'll assume it has something to do with antique aircraft not equipped with any electric power to drive avionics like ASD-B. Am I close?

Why should it be considered safe for those things to putter around in the National Airspace with no electronic conspicuity devices, putting lives at risk while mixing it up with other air traffic? Please tell me they're not actually allowed to fly at night without nav lights.

Why are model airplanes or "drones" flown in your own backyard considered to be so much greater a danger that the FAA requires them to broadcast Remote ID, but manned aircraft are not all required to do so?

You'll tell me that antique aircraft are grandfathered in. Modern safety regulations don't need to apply because...., um, well just because. They didn't apply at the time these aircraft were built, so why should they be required to upgrade now? Or you'll tell me pilots of antique aircraft are more attentive to their surroundings because, "they have skin in the game".

Here's just one small example. The people in both of these aircraft are supposedly constantly scanning the skies for conflicting traffic, because they presumably have skin in the game. And yet, it's pure luck there was no collision here. If they were both equipped with ADS-B warning systems, situations like this might be more safely avoided. Skip ahead to the 1:00 mark.

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What I'm going to tell you is that Federal regulations are Federal regulations. They are not required to make sense.

Most of my friends and I fly CAR 4a aircraft underneath Memphis Class B airspace. We haven't noticed any significant collision hazards compared to when we are flying our CAR 3 aircraft.
 
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What I'm going to tell you is that Federal regulations are Federal regulations. They are not required to make sense.
Evidently.

Most of my friends and I fly CAR 4a aircraft underneath Memphis Class B airspace. We haven't noticed any significant collision hazards compared to when we are flying our CAR 3 aircraft.
But that's exactly my point though, isn't it?

The collision hazards which you haven't noticed are the ones most likely to kill you.

We're constantly being told how drones present a genuine hazard to manned aviation, as a midair collision "might" have fatal consequences. So mandatory registration was supposed to solve that, except that hasn't solved anything. Has drone registration ever been used for any beneficial purpose whatsoever, or been the source used to identify the pilot for a drone offence?

So now Remote ID is instead touted as the solution to everything, but it's only useful over a short range and primarily for monitoring from the ground. It provides extremely limited use, if any, for prevention of mid-air collisions with manned aircraft.

And yet, midair collisions between manned aircraft continue to kill people all the time. That suggests a much greater need exists for risk mitigation in that category, compared to recreational multirotor drones that haven't killed anyone despite their worldwide use over the last decade.
 
Zbip said "But that's exactly my point though, isn't it?".

Nope. We see more near misses between CAR 3 aircraft than CAR 4a.
Note though that CAR 4a pilots are far more willing to share airspace with drones than are CAR 3 pilots. And far less likely to run over you. We and the ag pilots spend a lot of time down there amongst you. We know you are there and keep an eye out.

To date, how many CAR 4a aircraft have struck a UAV?
 
Why are model airplanes or "drones" flown in your own backyard considered to be so much greater a danger that the FAA requires them to broadcast Remote ID, but manned aircraft are not all required to do so?
Are you sincerely asking this question because you don't know and you're really looking to understand why, or is this just a rhetorical question you're tossing out to just blow off steam because you're pissed off at having to follow rules and regulations?

The answer is not complicated nor any great mystery.
 
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