Another drone in the Airport

[gnirtS]

So someone got hurt. The offences aren't linked.

If you're flying recklessly and hurt someone then yes, you should be sanctioned, heavily.

They're not going to piece together the corpse of the Alaska guy and put him in jail. If he HAD survived he'd have gone and would never be coming out.

 

[sar104]

Remember that I was only trying to give one answer to the broad question:

What is it with this current trend of responding to illegal/unsafe/immoral etc. actions, whether in the field of drones, politics or anything else by saying "But what about [insert random other illegal activity]..."?

My answer is its often because of a perceived double standard which people tend to dislike instinctively unless they are the beneficiary.

The gross negligence of Alaska Airline could have caused another 911 with deaths of thousands and destruction of an entire state's economy.

The guy who accidentally bopped someone on the head with his Phantom drone in downtown Seattle in 2015, got JAIL. The people in charge of security at Alaska and Seatac Airport? (Insert sound of crickets chirping)

The guy who caused the injury with his Phantom was found guilty of a criminal offense. No one has yet been convicted of any crime in relation to the Alaska Airlines incident. Additionally, it appears that they were following industry standard practice in terms of aircraft security.

 

[gnirtS]

Its very hard to stop someone quite legally allowed to have access to aircraft and be airside from doing things to aircraft.

This isn't like Egypt where you can buy your way airside with no ID and $5.

 

[Chip]

So someone got hurt.,,

If you're flying recklessly and hurt someone then yes, you should be sanctioned, heavily.,,

Okay so the key distinction to you is whether there is some physical injury, no matter how slight. Now, in any of these drone spotted near airport incidents documented ad nauseum on this forum, have any resulted in actual physical injury to anyone?

 

[Chip]

Its very hard to stop someone quite legally allowed to have access to aircraft and be airside from doing things to aircraft...

Especially if you handle security like Horizon/Alaska (ie no security) and no one will ever hold any corporate officer or government official accountable. Much easier to prosecute some guy with a drone.

 

[Chip]

FAA took 5 years and $millions to investigate this crash. Five people injured, tens of millions in property damage. Oh well. No reason to cite the pilot for anything. Accidents happen. Unless its a drone.

 

[sar104]

Okay so the key distinction to you is whether there is some physical injury, no matter how slight. Now, in any of these drone spotted near airport incidents documented ad nauseum on this forum, have any resulted in actual physical injury to anyone?

Did the Q400 incident result in physical injury to anyone, except the perpetrator? Presumably you are not going to try to argue that law-breaking should not be prosecuted unless someone gets significantly injured.

 

[sar104]

FAA took 5 years and $millions to investigate this crash. Five people injured, tens of millions in property damage. Oh well. No reason to cite the pilot for anything. Accidents happen. Unless its a drone.

The pertinent question is did the accident happen because the pilot was breaking specific aviation laws?

I really don't understand your persistence with this line of argument. Do you really want offenses involving UAVs to be ignored? None of your counter-examples seem to represent equivalent situations.

 

[ac0j]

Another interesting thread...

Alaska airlines didnt get any sort of penalty? what do you call the loss of a 32 million dollar aircraft? I am sure the insurance they had wont cover theft and inexperienced pilots.
Several years ago my next door neighbor was a training pilot for a small commercial airline. He would take people up to train at night in a 20 passenger (or so) twin engine plane. He used to ask me if I wanted to come along cause they had a lot of fun.
Long story short, I did not go. He was doing aerobatics with the aircraft and it broke apart and burned into a pasture killing 2 or 3 people in the plane. The widow of my neighbor got NO insurance payout because of what he did and how he died, the airline did not recover the cost of the aircraft because of what was done..

For those that question this, it was in the mid 90's in mid Nebraska, and the (now defunct ) airline was GP express. Look it up.

 

[lmel2005]

Another interesting thread...

Alaska airlines didnt get any sort of penalty? what do you call the loss of a 32 million dollar aircraft? I am sure the insurance they had wont cover theft and inexperienced pilots.
Several years ago my next door neighbor was a training pilot for a small commercial airline. He would take people up to train at night in a 20 passenger (or so) twin engine plane. He used to ask me if I wanted to come along cause they had a lot of fun.
Long story short, I did not go. He was doing aerobatics with the aircraft and it broke apart and burned into a pasture killing 2 or 3 people in the plane. The widow of my neighbor got NO insurance payout because of what he did and how he died, the airline did not recover the cost of the aircraft because of what was done..

For those that question this, it was in the mid 90's in mid Nebraska, and the (now defunct ) airline was GP express. Look it up.

So, the penalty for a drone user doing something illegal, could be the loss of his drone?

 

[ac0j]

So, the penalty for a drone user doing something illegal, could be the loss of his drone?

In the US it would certainly cost you the drone if you do something illegal. At the very least temporarily. It would be taken as evidence and may not be returned to you if you are convicted.

 

[Chip]

...Alaska airlines didnt get any sort of penalty? what do you call the loss of a 32 million dollar aircraft?

That is not a penalty. That is for the airline just another cost of doing business to be passed along to consumer. For exposing the city of Seattle and the residents of the state of Washington to what could easily have been a cataclysmic 911 event, will any Horizon/Alaska officer or employee or anyone in charge of security be prosecuted for a crime?

 

[sar104]

That is not a penalty. That is for the airline just another cost of doing business to be passed along to consumer. For exposing the city of Seattle and the residents of the state of Washington to what could easily have been a cataclysmic 911 event, will any Horizon/Alaska officer or employee or anyone in charge of security be prosecuted for a crime?

Did you have a particular crime in mind? As in a particular law that was breached? Not to argue that the aviation industry might not want to look at ways to secure aircraft from unauthorized takeoff, but if the mechanic that you authorize to work on your vehicle goes joy-riding in it and injures or kills someone, would you expect to be prosecuted for a crime?

 

[ac0j]

That is not a penalty. That is for the airline just another cost of doing business to be passed along to consumer. For exposing the city of Seattle and the residents of the state of Washington to what could easily have been a cataclysmic 911 event, will any Horizon/Alaska officer or employee or anyone in charge of security be prosecuted for a crime?

I understand your point. They absolutely should and probably would IF what might of happened actually did happen. But it did not so this will never be known unless it happens.
911 could be another case you could argue, but it that case the plane was hijacked.
I kind of see it being similar to if someone stole your car from in front of your house, then drove it 100 miles an hour through an orphanage killing everyone inside, should you be held accountable for the damage and personal loss?

 

[ac0j]

Did you have a particular crime in mind? As in a particular law that was breached? Not to argue that the aviation industry might not want to look at ways to secure aircraft from unauthorized takeoff, but if the mechanic that you authorize to work on your vehicle goes joy-riding in it and injures or kills someone, would you expect to be prosecuted for a crime?

LOL! Payback for me beating you to the Helicopter picture edit!

 

[Chip]

...I kind of see it being similar to if someone stole your car from in front of your house, then drove it 100 miles an hour through an orphanage killing everyone inside, should you be held accountable for the damage and personal loss?

In your hypothetical, did I leave the keys in the car with the engine running in a high crime area where people have stolen my car before and drove off and killed people?

 

[ac0j]

In your hypothetical, did I leave the keys in the car with the engine running in a high crime area where people have stolen my car before and drove off and killed people?

I concede. That makes no legal difference, only moral. You can claim the win......

 

[Chip]

You can claim the win......

Okay on that one limited point Ill take it but I figure anything more than that we probably need SAR and gnirts to sign off which could be problematic.

 

[sar104]

Okay on that one limited point Ill take it but I figure anything more than that we probably need SAR and gnirts to sign off which could be problematic.

I didn't realize you were still reading my posts. I think my "hypothetical" in #53 was more equivalent. Any thoughts on that? And I would add that if any wrongdoing does come to light in the course of the investigation then I'd expect that it will be pursued - hence my comment in #48.

 

[Chip]

...if the mechanic that you authorize to work on your vehicle goes joy-riding in it and injures or kills someone, would you expect to be prosecuted for a crime?

It gets back to the specific facts including was I supposed to know everything about that mechanic before letting him near the vehicle and was I supposed to be watching and supervising what he was doing? Of course, the other thing that might make a difference is whether I knew there was the functional equivalent of 15,000lb fuel bomb in the car that could be detonated in downtown Seattle within 5 minutes of being driven away.