DJI Mavic, Air and Mini Drones
Friendly, Helpful & Knowledgeable Community
Join Us Now

Another drone in the Airport

I agree with you. It covers the bases. Lisadoc?

What you're really talking about here is two different versions of "risk". One version, that all airlines, airports, etc. must operate under, is "operational risk". That calculation of risk (probability x severity) of any particular hazard is counterbalanced by "operational need" - or in other words, the need to conduct business. These entities must always weigh the risk of occurence with the cost of prevention. Another way to think about it is this - you can avoid all aviation-related accidents by stopping your operations. No risk of a crash, mid-air collision, bird strike, mechanical failure, etc. if your plane never takes off. But that's not really a very good business model for business entities such as airlines and airports. Additionally, each of these entities has a limited budget to conduct operations and those funds can either go toward reducing risks or increasing production. Spend too little on reducing risk (or too much in increasing production if you wish to look at it that way) and you'll end up with very expensive accidents and eventually go broke. Spend too much on reducing risk and your production falters and you eventually go broke.

So business entities like airlines and airports spend a great deal of their time figuring out business plans that delicately balance these two needs and walk the line as they best see fit. I've written about this concept before - as it's known in our field: ALARP ("As Low As Reasonably Possible" - or "SFAIRP"). More here:
Can a UAV bring down a plane?

What the court you cited above is speaking about (and what lawyers and legal scholars consider) in terms of risk is something entirely different - it has to do with negligence and the elements necessary to legally prove negligence of a party in its conduct (or lack thereof). Depending on your state (and tort law there), there are typically five or so elements that you must prove to demonstrate negligence:
  • Duty
  • Breach of Duty
  • Cause in Fact
  • Proximate Cause
  • Damages
Risk, in the manner in which it is considered for legal purposes, goes to the first element - duty. The second element is also related, and goes more towards reasonableness. The last 3 go to the actual outcome of an incident (did it cause harm, was it the direct cause of the harm, how much was that harm?) and are not related to "risk".

Legalistically, risk is looked at with respect to an entity's duty - in this case, an airline or airport's duty to prevent an accident. Who do they owe a duty to? The public, a passenger, their employees, etc. All of these must be balanced. Criminal behavior, in most cases, relieves or at least mitigates an actor of that duty to prevent an accident. If someone trespasses on my property, for example, and injures themselves, I am far less likely to be held to have a duty to avoid that "risk", than if if someone is an invitee of mine. This is not something that comes into play in calculations of operational risk.

Secondly, the risk of this is typically calculated with respect to the likelihood of it happening and the capability of a party to mitigate such a risk. Severity does come in to the calculation to a small degree, but only insofar as it relates to what is "reasonable care". For legal risk, a party doesn't have to consider all risks and even those risks that are readily apparent, it may not be breaching a duty if it fails to take action, as that action may not be "reasonable", no matter the severity.

Finally, though both calculations are subjective to some degree, operational risk should be as minimally subjective as possible and should be analyzed based on data (and re-analyzed as more data comes in), while legal risk is almost entirely subjective, as it relates to what a judge or jury deems "reasonable". Those dealing with operational risk attempt to take as much of the "feelings" and sentiment out of the equation as possible. Typically, legal risk is determined entirely or principally by sentiment, despite its objective visage.

In this specific case, for operational risk, the airline is looking to their mitgation factors and (hopefully) basing it on quantifiable data and relevant risk calculations - what is the severity of someone "stealing" an airplane? (potentially very severe) times the probability of someone actually doing that (generally very low - i.e. how many times has this happened over the years?). And what actions did they take to mitigate that risk? Background checks, security perimeters, etc. Someone on the inside stealing a plane has very different probability than an "intruder". Most mitigation steps are taken to address those issues (of intruders, not insiders). Could they install "keys" or "randomized security codes" for the start-up of aircraft? Sure. Is it operationally worth it considering the risk? And what did the data say (prior to this incident)? Probably not. The same calculation was in effect for cockpit doors prior to 9/11. That data point changed the equation.

For legal risk, did the airline owe a duty of care to the general public that its planes wouldn't be stolen? Probably yes. I would suspect that this factor wouldn't be a hurdle. But the breach of duty is a barrier to pretty much any claim in this case. As I noted, criminal behavior mitigates that breach of duty. Reasonable care is also a subjective determination, even taking that part out of the determination. Were the airline's actions "reasonable"? If so, there was no breach of duty, even if it was a "risk". Though you can never predict the outcome of a jury determination with certainty, the burden of proof in this case to prove a breach of duty is likely insurmountable, to say nothing about the fact that there were basically no damages (to outside parties).
 
Last edited:
...Were the airline's actions "reasonable"? If so, there was no breach of duty, even if it was a "risk". Though you can never predict the outcome of a jury determination with certainty, the burden of proof in this case to prove a breach of duty is likely insurmountable, to say nothing about the fact that there were basically no damages (to outside parties).

Some great insights Lisadoc. I agree the issue is whether the airline/airport took reasonable care to devise and enforce security measures to prevent this theft? I am just more doubtful that the airline/airport would easily dodge civil liability had plane crashed into downtown Seattle causing massive damage. Just out of curiosity, are there federal laws or regulations which govern airport security which might preempt state law? Who does actually set industry airline/airport security standards?
 
Some great insights Lisadoc. I agree the issue is whether the airline/airport took reasonable care to devise and enforce security measures to prevent this theft? I am just more doubtful that the airline/airport would easily dodge civil liability had plane crashed into downtown Seattle causing massive damage. Just out of curiosity, are there federal laws or regulations which govern airport security which might preempt state law? Who does actually set industry airline/airport security standards?
Did American airlines get approached to make repairs to the world trade center and its victims? Serious question, I do not remember hearing that the airlines involved in 911 were ever approached for blame, or reparations.
 
Did American airlines get approached to make repairs to the world trade center and its victims? Serious question, I do not remember hearing that the airlines involved in 911 were ever approached for blame, or reparations.

I'm sure they were not, but it might have been different if it had been their employees who crashed the aircraft.
 
I'm sure they were not, but it might have been different if it had been their employees who crashed the aircraft.

Yes, like the pilot who deliberately crashed an Airbus A320 in the French Alps. Or, would you say acOj that the airline cannot help it if some pilot goes crazy and decides to commit suicide during the flight?
 
Yes, like the pilot who deliberately crashed an Airbus A320 in the French Alps. Or, would you say acOj that the airline cannot help it if some pilot goes crazy and decides to commit suicide during the flight?

Exactly. Lufthansa has already paid €75k to every family and more to close relatives. Their ultimate liability for compensation has not yet been determined, but is quite likely to go higher.
 
Im not positive but I believe Lufthansa pilot was deemed "unfit to fly" by a doctor but was somehow allowed to anyway which sounds much worse for the airline. I wonder if some kind of psychological testing or profiling would catch "a broken guy with a couple of screws loose" who seems outwardly happy and normal? Check out Beebo's video:

I misp
 
Last edited:
Story ran in local paper yesterday with front page headline:
Pilot Says He Saw Russell In Cockpit A Year Earlier

The newspaper found out from one of the audio recordings that, on the day of the crash, a commercial airline pilot, Joel Monteith, called in and reported that he encounterd Richard Russell at the helm of an unoccupied aircraft a year earlier. Monteith said that when he saw Russell and a second man "pointing and flipping switches" inside the empty SkyWest jet, he "went over and confronted them." He said "hey, what are you guys doing?" The two men said they were training to use the plane's auxiliary power unit so they would know how to tow it. "But, they kind of started to get up and then leave the airplane when I confronted them. So, that was kind of suspicious." Monteith also reported on the day of the theft that he had caught Russell "inside my cockpit" of an Embracer 175 jet airliner on at least one other occasion. No one from the FBI, NTSB, Airport, Airline, etc. has ever contacted him to follow up.
 
Department of Homeland Security's See Something Say Something Day is coming up on September 25. Gave me an idea. Train the airline pilots that if they find an unauthorized person in the cockpit of their jet airliner they check employee badge and report to supervisor. Especially if they are playing around with switches and then attempt to leave quickly raising your suspicion. Part two of the training would be that if the pilot catches the same person doing the same thing a second time, report again promptly.

upload_2018-9-14_19-36-19.png

upload_2018-9-14_19-36-39.png
 
How can anyone be get caught.

Didn’t y’all by your drone with a cash gift card?? Dumb if you did not...

Using Both a modded Android and a modded DJI app to mask your ID.

Stay safe, stay smart, stay above the law.
 
How can anyone be get caught.

Didn’t y’all by your drone with a cash gift card?? Dumb if you did not...

Using Both a modded Android and a modded DJI app to mask your ID.

Stay safe, stay smart, stay above the law.
AGansta is in the house!!!!!!

Most of us dont go to all that trouble, because we do not plan on breaking any laws, or dodging any responsibility for problems we may accidentally cause. That is what potential criminals do.
 
Or I like my privacy.

Same reason my cellphone is layered on the 4g...... who pays for cell service or internet now???

Happy flying.
 
Or I like my privacy.

Same reason my cellphone is layered on the 4g...... who pays for cell service or internet now???

Happy flying.
I have never had any privacy issue because of my Mavic. BUT, I am not doing criminal things I need to keep private.
Like stealing copyrighted music, or movies that I can get legally for a dollar or so. Or stealing services like phone service. You sound like a GEN X.
If you take a moment and think, if everyone starts stealing these things like you, and removes the owners of these goods and services' ability to make money from them,
The artists will quit doing so much work for nothing and get a job at Starbucks,
The phone companies will just shut of their billions of dollars worth of equipment when it no longer makes enough money to support the people that keep it running.
What your saying doesn't make you look cool. It makes you look like a broke person in your parents basement to most of us.
I am NOT trying to start a fight with you. Just putting it out there, like you did with your first statement.

Fly at night, its more stealthy!
 
How can anyone be get caught...

In the 2015 Seattle drone case I mentioned before, the Seattle police department and city prosecutor pulled out all the stops and spared no expense to nail the drone pilot to the wall. SPD gathered everything they needed from the drone itself to reconstruct the flight and identify witnesses. They even hired Gregory McNeal, the co-founder of Air Map, as an expert witness to explain to the jury how this outrageous drone flight had endangered everybody's life if not the entirety of western civilization.

But you are right as far as the plane stolen from seatac which was obviously a far more immense threat to everybody. I doubt anyone will be punished or penalized in the slightest.
 
SPD reconstruction of 2015 DJI Phantom Flight based on "the drone's internal position monitoring and recording system."

upload_2018-9-16_13-56-20.png

upload_2018-9-16_13-56-58.png

upload_2018-9-16_13-57-35.png
 
Death or serious injury........
How does the police officer come up with that?
Injury yes, without a doubt.
 
The drone flight was charged and prosecuted the same way as this case where child was thrown off bridge:

 
Reckless endangerment is defined as the offense of recklessly engaging in conduct that creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury or death to another person...

You are technically 100% right but may I show you an important twist. Here are the three reckless endangerment instructions given to the jury in the Seattle drone case. Note the subjective element. Did the defendant know and appreciate the risk or danger of what he was doing? Or was he just stupid and ignorant?

upload_2018-9-17_20-43-27.pngupload_2018-9-17_20-43-45.pngupload_2018-9-17_20-44-31.png
 
Lycus Tech Mavic Air 3 Case

DJI Drone Deals

New Threads

Forum statistics

Threads
131,386
Messages
1,562,659
Members
160,317
Latest member
NIKLM