Anyone else afraid to fly too high?

[lisadoc]

Wow after reading through this entire thread I am now realizing that none of us really understand the law... LOL. I really wish the FAA would make it more clear. I am trying to fly legally at all times, but they make it extremely difficult sometimes.

The FAA has made it clear that the 400 ft. limit is not a requirement for recreational flyers (only a recommendation). Part 107 pilots (operating a flight for commercial benefit) must abide by that limitation unless they have prior approval. If they are operating for recreation, then recreational guidelines apply. Despite the fact that the FAA clouds the issue themselves by intimating that it is the law, by law they cannot hold recreational flyers to that requirement (just like they can't prohibit you from flying near an airport). What they can do is hold you accountable for endangering the national airspace, and they imply that flying without notification to/permission from an airport or flying higher than 400 feet will be construed against you. To date, their standard has not been tested in court, so it's unclear if that "evidence" of endangerment is persuasive.

Read here the FAA's statement regarding the 400 foot limit:
http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/files/2016/07/FAA-400feet.pdf

 

[black_magic100]

The FAA has made it clear that the 400 ft. limit is not a requirement for recreational flyers (only a recommendation). Part 107 pilots (operating a flight for commercial benefit) must abide by that limitation unless they have prior approval. If they are operating for recreation, then recreational guidelines apply. Despite the fact that the FAA clouds the issue themselves by intimating that it is the law, by law they cannot hold recreational flyers to that requirement (just like they can't prohibit you from flying near an airport). What they can do is hold you accountable for endangering the national airspace, and they imply that flying without notification to/permission from an airport or flying higher than 400 feet will be construed against you. To date, their standard has not been tested in court, so it's unclear if that "evidence" of endangerment is persuasive.

Read here the FAA's statement regarding the 400 foot limit:
http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/files/2016/07/FAA-400feet.pdf

So just to be clear... ALL recreational flights can be above 400 feet if all other precautions are met. ALL commercial flights above 400 feet need permission prior to flight. This all regardless of whether or not you are part 107 certified?

What is their are no ATC's in the area. Who would you request a permit from to fly above 400 ft commercially?

 

[lisadoc]

So just to be clear... ALL recreational flights can be above 400 feet if all other precautions are met. ALL commercial flights above 400 feet need permission prior to flight. This all regardless of whether or not you are part 107 certified?

Correct. If you're flying for recreation, irrespective if you have your Part 107 license, technically you can fly above 400 feet (i.e. there's no law against it.) However, if something should happen or you are brought under the scrutiny of the FAA (e.g. posting a video on YouTube, busted by local law enforcement, etc.), it could be construed that you were endangering the national airspace and action under that law could be pursued. Section 336(b) of the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012, Public Law 112-95.

A good summary of this can be found in the FAA's guidance for law enforcement:
https://www.faa.gov/uas/resources/law_enforcement/media/FAA_UAS-PO_LEA_Guidance.pdf

What is their are no ATC's in the area. Who would you request a permit from to fly above 400 ft commercially?

All permissions under Part 107, even for requesting permission to fly near an airport, to fly at night, or to fly higher than 400 feet, are requested in advance, in writing, from the FAA (not ATC). Only recreational flyers wishing to fly less than 5 miles from an airport must inform (technically it's inform, not request permission) ATC of their intentions. If ATC advises you not to and you still do it, the FAA could take action against you under the above-cited law.

 

[black_magic100]

5 miles from ANY airport or only major airports?

 

[lisadoc]

This is the most critical paragraph of the guidance to law enforcement, if you don't wish to wade through the entire document:

"Model Aircraft that Operate in a Careless or Reckless Manner
Section 336(b) of the Act, however, makes clear that the FAA has the authority under its
existing regulations to pursue legal enforcement action against persons operating Model
Aircraft when the operations endanger the safety of the NAS, even if they are operating in
accordance with Sections 336(a) and 336(c). For example, a Model Aircraft operation
conducted in accordance with Section 336(a) and (c) may be subject to an enforcement action
if the operation is conducted in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or
property of another."

 

[lisadoc]

5 miles from ANY airport or only major airports?

Again, technically, any airport (with an ATC facility).

Here's what the FAA regulations say:
"(5) When flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport))."

 

[radial]

Again, technically, any airport (with an ATC facility).

Here's what the FAA regulations say:
"(5) When flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport))."

Only airports with an ATC facility? Not so sure about that.

 

[lisadoc]

Only airports with an ATC facility? Not so sure about that.

The question was about contacting ATC. If you see the rule I quoted, it says "... the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation..."

So you must contact the airport operator all the time (if you can) and ATC only when there is one.

 

[CamoGreg]

Always « high » when I fly [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji12]

 

[radial]

The question was about contacting ATC. If you see the rule I quoted, it says "... the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation..."

So you must contact the airport operator all the time (if you can) and ATC only when there is one.

I guess there were several questions in play, as often happens in these threads. The one I thought you were answering was the question about who to contact in the event that there was no ATC. I understand what you were saying now.

 

[Qoncussion]

"Anyone Else Afraid to Fly Too High?"

I was once so stoned that I couldn't even get the controller out of its case. I was very afraid! But I don't think that's what we're talking about here. Never mind...

 

[CamoGreg]

"Anyone Else Afraid to Fly Too High?"

I was once so stoned that I couldn't even get the controller out of its case. I was very afraid! But I don't think that's what we're talking about here. Never mind...

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] we should fly together !!

 

[genesimmons]

not to stir the pot or cause any issues but wow i read thru all these posts and now i am even more confused, ok 400ft is a guideline so thats a given, ok so whats the other spectrum? 1000ft, 3000ft or 8000ft? if 400 is the recomended is there an actual cut off? i assume if some one official sees u and catches u in the act of 5000ft which would be pretty hard to do there would be consequences, 400 is the recomended i get that but is it written the upper end of the spectrum or is it left to common sence??

 

[JoMaMa]

Sooo... This thread strayed off course... Reading the entire thread it is a discussion of FAA rules on altitude now. Not the pensive nature of the original poster to fly too high and have his machine blown around too much... I will add, I am never pensive about height only about distance... I don't mind flying up to 400 feet. I do appreciate the reported 4 mile distance for the Mavic. It's an awesome buffer as I have never flown more than a mile and a half in distance... Again, height, never an issue... I use the app UAV Forcast for wind predictions. Very useful.

 

[radial]

not to stir the pot or cause any issues but wow i read thru all these posts and now i am even more confused, ok 400ft is a guideline so thats a given, ok so whats the other spectrum? 1000ft, 3000ft or 8000ft? if 400 is the recomended is there an actual cut off? i assume if some one official sees u and catches u in the act of 5000ft which would be pretty hard to do there would be consequences, 400 is the recomended i get that but is it written the upper end of the spectrum or is it left to common sence??

One limiting factor is that you have to maintain visual contact with your drone to be flying legally. How far overhead can you fly before you can no longer see the AC with your naked eyes? Definitely not 8000 feet. And in my case not even 3000 feet.

 

[Astrix]

Not afraid .... not stupid either, visual line of sight at all times. Caution and experience always wins the day. [emoji106]

 

[lisadoc]

not to stir the pot or cause any issues but wow i read thru all these posts and now i am even more confused, ok 400ft is a guideline so thats a given, ok so whats the other spectrum? 1000ft, 3000ft or 8000ft? if 400 is the recomended is there an actual cut off? i assume if some one official sees u and catches u in the act of 5000ft which would be pretty hard to do there would be consequences, 400 is the recomended i get that but is it written the upper end of the spectrum or is it left to common sence??

There is no other end of the spectrum. The FAA cannot make a law or regulation prohibiting you from flying recreationally over 400 feet. But that's the cut-off in their minds. Anything over that might be considered by them to be endangering the national airspace. Will they bust you for breaking some invisible 400 ft. height barrier? Probably not. But if you're well higher than that, or doing something stupid even slightly higher than that, then the FAA could potentially hold it against you. You could, in fact, be held liable for flying well below that 400 ft. limit (e.g. flying at 200 feet and not moving out of the way of an oncoming manned helicopter), if you are still endangering the NAS and posing a threat to manned aircraft.

Bottom line is this - if you fly your Mavic under 400 feet over the terrain (or over objects) and watch out for manned aircraft, and don't fly in locations you shouldn't be (like over stadiums, prisons, near airports, etc), you'll be fine. If you routinely fly over this height to a great degree or even once to a tremendous degree (e.g. 1,000's of feet), you're risking getting in trouble.

 

[knsaber]

Has anyone else found that their Mavic pro gets blown about slight in the air and it freaks them out and the end up flying only approx 100ft?

On a side note, I am a new pilot and wonder what's the max flight regulations for a recreational flight in the US and Canada? I heard it was approx 400ft but could be wrong and any tips on flying higher and getting the balls to fly higher. (Professional Paperwork and FAA approved of course)

Thanks guys!

K

I almost always fly to my set limit of 120 meters (400ft) while keeping an eye on both high wind warnings and the mavic's camera to see if it really is drifting away. Worst case scenario is that it starts drifting away by high winds, all you do is drop the Mavic lower in altitude and bring it back to you. You can even toggle Sport mode to assist against high winds. My highest flight so far was 1361ft AGL and luckily there was almost no wind at all (I was in Delphi, Greece).

 

[tedledan]

Has anyone else found that their Mavic pro gets blown about slight in the air and it freaks them out and the end up flying only approx 100ft?

On a side note, I am a new pilot and wonder what's the max flight regulations for a recreational flight in the US and Canada? I heard it was approx 400ft but could be wrong and any tips on flying higher and getting the balls to fly higher. (Professional Paperwork and FAA approved of course)

Thanks guys!

K

When it is really windy it is a good idea to take it up very fast because you dont want to get it blown into any trees, etc

 

[Ninpo10]

What has helped me manage all of the nuances of flying legally so to speak is using third-party apps like kitty hawk or airmap. There is a fee for kitty hawk if you want to use all of their features. From weather Information to digital notices with ATC's and full flight telemetry. Also the pre and post flight checklists (invaluable) and maintenance logs. I'm no rep for kitty hawk. However, apps like these have helped me to enjoy my flights.