Australian Govco now banning DJI drones

[Meta4]

I think it all comes down to 3 things, Paranoia, Greed and Power..

.. to say nothing of the aggressive lobbying by Skydio to encourage the paranoia

 

[Zbip57]

This video is long but worth watching to see actual police explaining how ridiculous these bans are, how there's no threat and how much the bans are costing.

Wow! That video is an hour and a half long, but was well worth watching. It's refreshing to see that there actually are some politicians with fortitude and brains.

The majority of the video is testimony from law enforcement officers, even the mosquito control department, explaining the various vital and useful roles played by the drone fleets in their departments.

I think we're all agreed that drones are often far more capable, effective, safer, and quick to deploy, compared to expensive and dangerous manned helicopters. But government departments like police and fire have been banned since January 1st from using DJI drones in Florida. They instead must use only drones from the approved Blue SUAS list, which are less reliable, less capable, and far more expensive, with millions of dollars now sitting idle and going to waste.

The character testifying in support of the ban was a smug little twerp who contributed nothing useful. His speech described an incident from 2008 (15 years ago!!) where an infected USB stick was "found in a parking lot" at a US military base and somebody stuck it into their computer on the base, thereby infecting their system with a virus. The virus spread through their networks, "with the capability to transfer data to servers under the control of an unknown foreign entity." For all we know, that foreign entity might have been Jamaica. He never actually said it was China. It took the Department of Defence 14 months to eradicate the virus from all its networks.

The moral of that story is, don't stick infected USB drives found in a parking lot into your internet enabled Department of Defence computers, duh! And especially, if you ever find a Chinese-made drone abandoned in the parking lot of your military base, don't connect that to your military computer networks!

His other example is Hauwei 5G telecommunications systems being sued for using pirated CIsco U.S. and T-mobile source code, and that Hauwei was banned from several countries because of the potential their systems might be used for spying.

Ergo, China is evil, and has a history of spying and stealing intellectual property. And since DJI is a Chinese company, that automatically makes them suspect, even if there's no evidence of them actually being capable of secretly spying on anyone without someone deliberately using them for that purpose.

He says, "Should we take a chance that a highly advanced network connected device like a drone manufactured in a foreign country of concern is benign?"

When pressed for details on whether DJI drones have actually been determined to be spying, he merely deflected by reiterating that the Dept of Defence, Treasury, Commerce, Interior, and Homeland Security have considered and answered, No, we should not take that chance.

Brilliant...

edit: The sound on the video is poor quality, and the captions are often completely wrong. This site has an accurate transcript of what was actually said.
dronexl.co/2023/03/31/blue-suas-problems-pimping-for-skydio/

 

[umanbean]

Wow! That video is an hour and a half long, but was well worth watching. It's refreshing to see that there actually are some politicians with fortitude and brains.

Very good post, thanks for the synopsis. I didn't watch it simply because I don't have the time or patience to sit around for an hour and a half. Thanks again for the wrap up.

 

[Zbip57]

Very good post, thanks for the synopsis.

To summarize a bit further, the video is a recording of a meeting held this past March 14th of Florida's Senate Committee on Military and Veterans Affairs, Space, and Domestic Security.

One of the people speaking was a deputy from the Broward County Sheriff's Office, their unmanned aircraft systems unit coordinator. Their entire drone fleet has been grounded since January. He said;

I currently have 63 airframes in a closet. All DJI. Operationally, we have nothing else.

Another officer from the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office reported;

We’ve been flying over a hundred missions a month. We’ve shut, we’ve been shut down since January. We’ve flown five missions since January. [...]
We are trying to warm up into the approved list of drones. We purchased one, one of the Ascent drones. Very expensive. We had to fly two of our pilots to Boston to even learn how to fly it. The DJIs are very easy to use.

Within a week or two of having it, one of our pilots was driving home. He heard snap, crackle, pop, behind his seat. One of the batteries outside of the drone, not plugged in, on the floorboard of his vehicle, caught on fire. Thermal combustion, and caught on fire. He had to pull over the side of the road, pull the battery and the rear carpet out while it was on fire. Our drone operators do not want to park these drones in their cars, in their garages, in their homes. So, for that one, we’ve never had one issue with the DJI since our inception.

The committee seemed unanimously opposed to this new regulation grounding DJI drones from government applications. In the absence of any evidence provided to prove that DJI is a threat to national security, other the "chance" that they might be spying on us, the Committee Chairperson concluded;

So, ladies and gentlemen, we do have a Bill that we'll be presenting on the floor that allows us to have this extension that we so desperately need to keep you safe.

I’m sad to hear that you have your (DJI) drones in closets, and I hope to hell we don’t have anybody lose a life over this silly rule.

And I am, I have pledged to you today, and I’ve pledged to the Secretary that we are going to get these DJIs back up and flying, and they’ll be the last thing I do.

 

[Red_Pyro]

..
As we have seen in many threads here, with the US Govco banning DJI equipment use for their various departments, Australia seems to be following this . . .

DJI drones in wide use across government departments despite defence, Border Force bans

There has been a lot of noise in the media and parliament regarding fixed security cams made in China possible being able to 'spy' on fixed sensitive sites like Govco buildings / sites, and they were already being banned, or close to it, remove and replace with more secure cams.

Now it seems DJI drones are being removed / replaced in use for defence, police (state and federal), and possibly soon many other more innocuous depts.

The five eyes country seems to care a lot about privacy lol

 

[Zbip57]

Here's a good article.

foreignpolicy.com/2023/07/09/chinese-drone-dominance-dji-defense-florida/

 

[WanderLost]

I noticed DJI making a big deal about having encryption for their Enterprise drones. That should be available to all of us so we can keep our stuff private if we wish. Like some cell phone apps that encrypt messages end to end, no one sniffing the data can decipher the information.
Of course, there's nothing stopping foreign nationals visiting the US from surreptitiously flying drones of any kind into sensitive areas. It's good that military bases, airports, and other sensitive areas now have the capability to monitor, track and even disable intrusions into their airspace.

 

[Meta4]

That should be available to all of us so we can keep our stuff private if we wish.

If you want to keep your data private, you can easily.
All it takes is to avoid uploading our data to DJI.

 

[EssenYVR]

How exactly is National Security currently being threatened by DJI drones in a way that couldn't be equally threatened using any other drone, camera or cellphone?

Cell phones are a risk too, at least the ones made by Chinese companies, all of whom are legally beholden to the whim of the Chinese Communist Party. For example, a drone or cell phone that's operating in an area of diplomatic or military interest may try to eavesdrop on cellular communications by government employees who don't take proper precautions (such as certain former Presidents who used their personal phones for official business)... Drones can use their height advantage to sniff out line-of-sight transmission over a wider area than phones are capable of.

 

[mavic3usa]

Cell phones are a risk too, at least the ones made by Chinese companies, all of whom are legally beholden to the whim of the Chinese Communist Party. For example, a drone or cell phone that's operating in an area of diplomatic or military interest may try to eavesdrop on cellular communications by government employees who don't take proper precautions (such as certain former Presidents who used their personal phones for official business)... Drones can use their height advantage to sniff out line-of-sight transmission over a wider area than phones are capable of.

Right now I think the focus is on Chinese factories and it appears that moving your factory to one located in Vietnam, Korea, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, or even Taiwan may be an option. The thought is better control over the operations. Honestly, this effort is somewhat being led by the mobile phone carriers.

 

[Zbip57]

Cell phones are a risk too,

Cell phones are a far greater risk, and not only ones made by Chinese companies. It's not the phone itself that's the problem, it's the apps running on the phone with free access to and from the internet.

People blindly click "accept" to all the terms and conditions without ever bothering to read any of those terms, or without wondering why their video game insists you must also grant access to all your personal contact info, all your friend's contact info, your telephone access, your credit card and bank account info, etc...

Drones can use their height advantage to sniff out line-of-sight transmission over a wider area than phones are capable of.

Chinese spy balloons and satellites have an even greater height advantage.

For example, a drone or cell phone that's operating in an area of diplomatic or military interest may try to eavesdrop on cellular communications by government employees...

A drone would need to be outfitted with special equipment to do any of that. A consumer grade DJI drone isn't capable of eavesdropping on any communications other than those via its own remote controller. DJI drones do not have the ability to communicate directly with the internet. The internet connection is provided via your smart controller or cellphone display device, only if you choose to enable a WiFi connection or a cellphone data connection to the internet.

Sending secret details of diplomatic or military interest requires the active participation of the drone's pilot to direct the drone to take photos or videos of sensitive locations and then to actively upload those details via their own internet connection. Consumer drones, whether of Chinese manufacture or anyone else, can't do any of that stuff all by themselves.

Banning DJI drones simply because they're Chinese, and therefor must be a communist spy tool, makes no sense. Show me the proof, a technical article, anything at all that documents how DJI drones are spying on us, rather than the usual paranoiac anti-communist blabber and hypothetical "may try to eavesdrop..." It's like banning drones because they may try to peek through your bedroom windows. Nonsense. Drones don't do that by themselves. A pervert flying a drone may try to use it [or binoculars or telescope or telephoto lens on a camera, or etc.] to peek in your windows. So keep your curtains closed, or ban perverts. It's not the drone's fault.

Google Streetview, while recording 360° camera views of every street around the world, were also sniffing IP addresses of every Wifi router detected along the way. Google is a far bigger threat to your security and privacy than DJI drones.

 

[EssenYVR]

For example, a drone or cell phone that's operating in an area of diplomatic or military interest may try to eavesdrop on cellular communications by government employees who don't take proper precautions (such as certain former Presidents who used their personal phones for official business)...

A drone would need to be outfitted with special equipment to do any of that. A consumer grade DJI drone isn't capable of eavesdropping on any communications other than those via its own remote controller. DJI drones do not have the ability to communicate directly with the internet. The internet connection is provided via your smart controller or cellphone display device, only if you choose to enable a WiFi connection or a cellphone data connection to the internet.

It's surprising what you can do in software these days - see: Software-defined radio

The drone and controller communicate, obviously, and the software at both ends is controlled by DJI, which in turn is beholden to the CCP. The controller can store information and upload it later when it obtains an Internet connection.

I'm not talking about taking pictures, I'm talking about monitoring communications. You don't have to point the drone at something or hit "record" in order for it to receive RF information.

And I'm not saying that DJI does this, only than it's at least in theory plausible. When governments and intelligence agencies talk about security risks, these are the kinds of things they're thinking about. I'm sure there are others as well.

 

[Zbip57]

I'm not saying that DJI does this, only than it's at least in theory plausible.

Which is exactly what I'm saying.

Time travel, world peace, alchemy for turning lead into gold, cold fusion, room temperature superconductivity, travelling faster than speed of light, all are "at least in theory plausible", but haven't yet been convincingly demonstrated in such a way as can be conclusively verified by others.

Claiming DJI is spying for communist China because "it's at least in theory plausible" isn't sufficient grounds for banning DJI, unless someone produces proof that they're actually spying. Theorizing that they might be spying, isn't the same as actually spying.

Where's the proof?

 

[EssenYVR]

Claiming DJI is spying for communist China because "it's at least in theory plausible" isn't sufficient grounds for banning DJI, unless someone produces proof that they're actually spying. Theorizing that they might be spying, isn't the same as actually spying.

So... there's a suspicious looking character wandering about the neighborhood and you don't think you need to lock the door because there's no proof he's going to commit a crime?

I don't think anyone is saying that DJI or even Huawei is spying today. At least I'm not. (Although China is well known to spy and do its level best to exert influence in western countries). But if a conflict between the US and China comes, it's not a good idea for your country to be home to millions of enemy devices with the potential to compromise you.

I say all this as a DJI drone owner who loves the product. I'm just trying to explain fears are that are driving the kind of talk we're seeing.

 

[Zbip57]

[...] if a conflict between the US and China comes, it's not a good idea for your country to be home to millions of enemy devices with the potential to compromise you.

First you vaguely claim that DJI's spying is "at least in theory plausible". Now you've escalated that into "millions of enemy devices with the potential to compromise you".

Show me proof that DJI drones are potentially capable of spying, or proof that the circuitry currently exists in their drones that at least in plausible theory makes them capable of spying.

I'm just trying to explain fears are what are driving the kind of talk we're seeing.

Convincing people to fear drones is the first step into convincing them that this thing is the "enemy", especially if it's a Chinese drone.

It's the same process which drives nearly an entire population into believing they'll be safer as long as everybody owns at least four guns, one in the glovebox of their car, one in their bedside table, one under their pillow, plus a machine gun under the bed (just in case).

So... there's a suspicious looking character wandering about the neighborhood and you don't think you need to lock the door because there's no proof he's going to commit a crime?

Huh? Seriously, has Vancouver succumbed to this type of American mentality? (By the way, in Canada it's spelled "neighbourhood".)

 

[EssenYVR]

Show me proof that DJI drones are potentially capable of spying, or proof that the circuitry currently exists in their drones that at least in plausible theory makes them capable of spying.

It's got an RF receiver/transmitter and a general-purpose CPU with firmware. That's all you need.

I don't need to prove anything, I'm not the one pushing for a ban. I'm just telling you what the fears are. If calling them unjustified is all it took to assuage them, then America wouldn't have such a huge political chasm right now.

 

[anotherlab]

It's got an RF receiver/transmitter and a general-purpose CPU with firmware. That's all you need.

I don't need to prove anything, I'm not the one pushing for a ban. I'm just telling you what the fears are. If calling them unjustified is all it took to assuage them, then America wouldn't have such a huge political chasm right now.

The only thing worse than that would be a device that tracks your every movement and can eavesdrop on your communications.

I would be more worried about the phone in my pocket than a drone that I used a fraction of the time.

I am more worried about a bad actor accessing infrastructure controlled by software. Like taking a powerplant offline or sending commands to permanently damage equipment.

 

[lookout]

So while our government is illegally spying on us, they have to use equipment purchased from a spy happy country like China. They go on about how bad China is. The buck never stops, and we're the only ones capable of spying on anybody with our little consumer toys. Yes I feel so empowered. I can without too much difficulty do a better job of spying on anyone with my quad than anyone in security of either country. I'm a registered informant for the fbeye. And I broadcast my spy numbers for miles around, just so everyone knows what I'm doing. See something? Record it and share with big brother!

 

[anotherlab]

I don't get the paranoia about drone data being set to China. It's never been proven that DJI was sending imagery to China. If you think the China government is depending on consumer drone footage from random people, you have to think it through a little more. If they want visual imagery, they can use satellites, vaguely controllable high-altitude balloon platforms. Of they have someone fly a drone directly and upload the memory card contents to their espionage services.

 

[shb]

Maybe if western countries are so worried about Chinese drones they should make it a priority to make drones in the west for security reasons.