Can a UAV bring down a plane?

[normr]

It all depends on speed and type of aircraft. A drone would most definitely come through the windscreen of a lot of aircraft, so you can imagine what this could do. It would also have a good chance of rupturing the leading edge fuel tank of a Cessna. Then you have multiple scenarios of what could happen if taken into a turbine. In my 40 years in aviation I have seen plenty of bird strikes and the damage caused by different sized birds so I am pretty sure of what a drone could do. (Actually saw the results of a snake strike believe it or not, but that’s another story )

Not a commercial jet, I’ve seen the beating those windshields can take, I was once worked at crash at Miami International Airport where a Convair CV880 which was carrying live cattle crashed through all the runway equipment and into a drainage ditch embankment, the cattle shifted causing a change in aircraft weight and the pilots couldn’t rotate to take off.

The nose of the aircraft was buried in the dirt and the cockpit windows were just above ground level, I watched fire department personnel beat on the glass cockpit windows with axes for about 20 minutes trying to get thru and into the cockpit, they finally gave up and axed their way thru the aluminum above the pilots having to rip out panels to get to them, they couldn’t get in from doors near the front because all the cattle had been thrown forward against the cockpit bulkhead, in fact I remember after they cut one of the first holes on top further back, a cow stuck it’s snout through the hole, and that’s when they figured they couldn’t get in that way.


But beating those cockpit windshields with pickheaded axes showed me how strong those things are.

 

[AnzacJack]

Not a commercial jet, I’ve seen the beating those windshields can take, I was once worked at crash at Miami International Airport where a Convair CV880 which was carrying live cattle crashed through all the runway equipment and into a drainage ditch embankment, the cattle shifted causing a change in aircraft weight and the pilots couldn’t rotate to take off.

The nose of the aircraft was buried in the dirt and the cockpit windows were just above ground level, I watched fire department personnel beat on the glass cockpit windows with axes for about 20 minutes trying to get thru and into the cockpit, they finally gave up and axed their way thru the aluminum above the pilots having to rip out panels to get to them, they couldn’t get in from doors near the front because all the cattle had been thrown forward against the cockpit bulkhead, in fact I remember after they cut one of the first holes on top further back, a cow stuck it’s snout through the hole, and that’s when they figured they couldn’t get in that way.


But beating those cockpit windshields with pickheaded axes showed me how strong those things are.


View attachment 33451

not every aircraft is a commercial jet with reinforced glass. What i will tell you though is that hitting the window of a pressurized cockpit is very different to an unpressurised cockpit. I have worked on military jets where the canopy would shatter like an egg on impact, either from ejection seat leaving on a bird coming through and killing the co pilot. We had one of these same canopies that was damaged and had to be replaced, so we decided to test out how easy it would be to smash it out with the provided canopy breaker. We couldnt break it in what would be a reasonable time frame. Just a few PSI pressurisation makes a big difference. Apart from that their are plenty of general aviation craft that would have no way of stopping a drone coming through the windscreen.

 

[Marko9219]

There's an infinitesimal chance that a drone could cause an airplane to crash.
It could do a bit of damage though, which would take the airplane out of service until repairs were made, a great expense.
Taking one through the engine would cause damage, but failure would be extremely unlikely.

Given the current environment, I believe a huge effort would be made to find the drone operator and hold him responsible for civil and criminal penalties.

They don't have sensors for such things.
Further, a pilot would absolutely maneuver to avoid a drone.
The problem is there wouldn't be enough time between visual detection and the ability to avoid it.
The difference between birds and drones is that birds are very adept at avoiding airplanes.
Drones are not.

"

infinitesimal chance

"Infinitesimal chance"? Tell that to this F-16 pilot that had to eject after sucking in a bird. A soft-bodied bird.

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[Danchow96]

Ouch... I guess there is always a matter of chance for these things to happen! But scary to see how quickly a bird can bring an F-16 down!

 

[MrRobville]

I guess in the end there are of course a lot of variables to whether or not a drone can bring down an airplane. Plenty of collisions would probably (and hopefully) end up fine, however no one can deny the danger of anything hitting a plane while it being in flight. Being a drone, a bird or a flying toothbrush for all that matter. If it can do harm, it might. There shouldn't even be a discussion about it.
Besides, even if there's no initial damage, a collision could always instigate a chain of events that could eventually lead to disastrous results. There have been plane crashes due to something trivial such as an overlooked air circulation switch or a piece of tape.

 

[Chip]

I am trying to better understand this risk caused by hobby drones in light of our experience with birds. How many birds fly in the skies over the USA on any given day and how many cause airplanes to crash on any given day? Now, of those crashes caused by birds, how many involved an airplane flying at or below 400 ft more than 5 miles away from an airport?

 

[AnzacJack]

It’s about reducing risks. If we could order birds to stay out of class c air space we would.
Being practical, the risk is low, but it’s a risk that can be negated. Pointless putting regs in place after someone is killed.
Imagine the family of someone killed by a drone, confronting law makers with “ you knew this was a possibility, but did nothing” . .....

 

[Chip]

It’s about reducing risks. If we could order birds to stay out of class c air space we would. Being practical, the risk is low, but it’s a risk that can be negated. Pointless putting regs in place after someone is killed. Imagine the family of someone killed by a drone, confronting law makers with “ you knew this was a possibility, but did nothing” . .....

I just read an awful story about a helicopter that crashed into the East River in NYC while "sightseeing." The licensed commercial pilot got out and swam to safety while his five passengers drowned. Imagine the families of those five passengers.

 

[AnzacJack]

I can indeed and someone is going to be accountable. But there are also many many regs in place when flying a commercial rotary wing operation

 

[Callum]

I just read an awful story about a helicopter that crashed into the East River in NYC while "sightseeing." The licensed commercial pilot got out and swam to safety while his five passengers drowned. Imagine the families of those five passengers.

According to the pilot a passengers bag hit the emergency fuel cut off switch.

Reminds me of crash here in Glasgow in 2013. Police eurocopter EC135 fell out sky and landed on a pub. 3 crew and 8 on ground killed.

Investigation found cause was double engine flameout. Tank 1 and 2 were empty but tank 3 still had fuel but transfer pump switches were in the off position.

 

[Tbredhed]

There's an infinitesimal chance that a drone could cause an airplane to crash.
It could do a bit of damage though, which would take the airplane out of service until repairs were made, a great expense.
Taking one through the engine would cause damage, but failure would be extremely unlikely.

Given the current environment, I believe a huge effort would be made to find the drone operator and hold him responsible for civil and criminal penalties.

They don't have sensors for such things.
Further, a pilot would absolutely maneuver to avoid a drone.
The problem is there wouldn't be enough time between visual detection and the ability to avoid it.
The difference between birds and drones is that birds are very adept at avoiding airplanes.
Drones are not.

I'm not sure what you're basing your theory on, birds being sucked into engines have destroyed them before, and birds to my knowledge have no metal parts like a drone.
I wish I could remember where I saw it but someone did a test, firing a drone at the windshield of an airliner. While the drone did not penetrate the windshield it did severely crack it.

 

[Callum]

I'm not sure what you're basing your theory on, birds being sucked into engines have destroyed them before, and birds to my knowledge have no metal parts like a drone.
I wish I could remember where I saw it but someone did a test, firing a drone at the windshield of an airliner. While the drone did not penetrate the windshield it did severely crack it.

It might have been the department of transport study in UK.

Drones and manned aircraft collisions: test results - GOV.UK

Widely regarded as flawed due to the fact they did not actually fire a drone, just a mixture of dense parts.


CAA also looked at the risks and as far as ingestion is concerned concluded.

Engine(s)
3.15 The central question is whether a collision with a small drone could cause a loss of
thrust to a manned aircraft. This can be divided into two distinct categories:
 jet engine powered aircraft, where the risk would relate to the drone being
ingested into the engine compressor or turbine, and
 aircraft where the thrust is provided by propeller. These have a lower risk of
engine failure due to the inherent properties of the propeller/engine design and
engine installation. However, the propeller itself is a key risk area, because any
damage may cause partial or complete loss of thrust and, more significantly, out
of balance forces may cause further damage to the whole engine installation.
3.16 In terms of the risk to a large aircraft, the fact that a jet engine has been damaged
may not cause an immediate risk to crew or passengers, even if the engine has
failed. This is because they typically have multiple engines and are certified for
continued safe flight and landing in the event of loss of one engine’s thrust.
17

3.17 Further, the expert opinion of a leading jet turbine engine manufacturer is that the
current suite of certification requirements for aero-engines provides a very significant
degree of protection for any structural integrity issues that might be posed by
potential drone ingestion. With the possible exception of any particularly dense items
that the drone might be carrying, which as identified earlier can vary considerably,
the manufacturer believes it is unlikely that small drone ingestion would significantly
affect the ability of the engine to produce thrust. The manufacturer also views it as
extremely unlikely that drone ingestion would compromise the ability of the engine to
be shut down safely.
3.18 Some subject experts have suggested that there may be a secondary risk to engines:
the risk of fire caused by the combustion of lithium polymer (LiPo) batteries, used in
most smaller drones. This concern cannot be quantified: the CAA has found no open-
source testing that helps ascertain the likelihood of this scenario. More information
on this outcome would need to come from research commissioned from the major
aircraft and engine certification authorities.



You can read the full report here
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1u9gDqghxx5OPeZEWIUK3R

 

[AnzacJack]

Remember Concorde

 

[ascension]

Remember Concorde

Concorde had other issues.
That is not to say that drones wouldn't be an issue.

It is to say that Concorde, and that one in particular, had other, serious issues.

 

[AnzacJack]

The question asked was “can a UAV bring down a plane?” And the answer is absolutely yes, despite all the little bits people want to chime in with.

 

[Marko9219]

Why so much debate and banter? The OP asked a simple question: "Can a UAV bring down a plane?" to which there is only one, simple, correct answer: Yes

 

[Bergumbira]

IMHO is no proper answer to this question. The only reliable answer can be :

Dépend on the size of the Drone + the size of the plane + the circumstances.

 

[Clinton1]

I will just leave this here.... .

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The biggest threat to manned aviation is.......Manned Aviation.

 

[Robin]

A drone would be smashed to smithereens if hits a plane, soft plastic shreds when hit by something solid travelling at 150 mph plus.

There was a video where a drone hits a windscreen of aircraft and the drones turns to a million pieces.

Same goes for the engine, it would shred and be spat out the other side.

 

[Classic flyer]

It could happen....... ..... ...

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