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Cover ban not allowed to fly in the New Forest in the UK and ability to enforce such a rule.

Drinu

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The forestry commission website states.

Drone flying in the New Forest
The use of drones, or UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) are not permitted on or over New Forest Crown land as part of our byelaws. In our experience, very few users have the correct training or permission from the Civil Aviation Authority to operate drones.

First of all I think the tone is very patronizing, almost like saying in our experience few users have training to drive cars so we are banning all cars! But more importantly there have been significant discussions in these forums over airspace ownership and the concensus seems to be; ownership is not from surface up to heavens and in space, it seems to be up to reasonable usable area, then it becomes public caa regulated airspace.

So aside from take off and landing in the forest, is flying over ban a truly enforceable and legal?
 
Bad wording I agree. They are obviously not aware of Drone regulations. Having said that certain groups, councils, National trust etc can apply by-laws to prevent drone flights over their land even if you take off from a public place. Forest Heath Council for example have banned all flights over all their parks and other land (of theirs I presume) on the ground that the parks contain too many people. So at least they have read the drone code! So it appears in answer to your question yes it is legal it would appear.
 
Firstly, IANAL - this is just my findings from digging into this kind of scenario. Personally, I think blanket bans on open land like this are over reaching and unnecessary *provided* that the drone code is adhered to and the flight is safe.

However, there are some legal considerations here, even if you err on the side of caution and assume the byelaw actually exists (some landowners claim they have one when they do not; a byelaw has legal weight above and beyond normal landowner's rights and has to be applied for and granted). Many larger landowners do have such byelaws; many councils, The National Trust, and English Heritage for instance, and I would assume a park authority like the New Forest does too, but they are generally not specific to drones and may be being a bit free in their legal interpretation in order to include them in their granted byelaws. The NT's applicable byelaw dates from 1965 for instance, which obviously does not specifically cover drones, and actually states:

"No unauthorised person shall on Trust Property sell or offer or expose for sale any commodity or article or for the purpose of trade or reward take any photograph."

So, for commercial drone photography I'd say they're absolutely covered, but for purely recreational usage, especially given they don't have a blanket ban on photography and actively encourage it? Yeah, I don't rate their chances at all, but I still don't want to be the one that goes to court over it!

As far as the CAA is concerned they do not want to get involved in such cases and their default position is that provided there is no breach of the drone code, the take off/landing points are legal, and there are no safety incidents it is NOT their remit. Since they are responsible for *all* the airspace from the ground up in the UK (including Class G/uncontrolled airspace), the upshot of that is that if you can take off legally from public land, comply with the drone code, and do not have any safety incidents, then you are almost certainly free and clear as far as criminal law and the CAA is concerned.

Where you would have a possible legal problem is civil law. Byelaw or not, a landowner does have some rights to the airspace over their land, specifically "a right to to enjoy their land" and "a reasonable expectation of privacy". They are also perfectly entitled to issue a blanket ban on the operation of drones *from* their land, as is the case here (the drone code covers this too - you are supposed to have the permission of a landowner before you fly from their land). When it comes to an overflight, they do have the recourse of a civil suit against the pilot concerned - on either of the grounds above, or potentially a safety angle, including to farm animals and other wildlife.

If you do end up on the receiving end of a civil suit, then besides the obvious costs and other factors of going to court, the outcome will be very much down to the court depending on the specific scenario. For instance, there is no precise altitude defined where you would be legally OK for an overflight; whether you had breached the landowner's rights would be determined by the court based on any evidence presented.

On the plus side, come November (if all goes to plan), we'll all be registered, will have undertaken a mandatory safety exam of some kind, and will have some kind of card/registration number to prove it. Those default "In our experience, very few users have the correct training or permission from the Civil Aviation Authority to operate drones." style clauses go out of the window at that point as *all* registered drone operators will have the correct training and permission to operate from the CAA. That's going to make it much harder for them to justify their restrictions, and while I doubt they'll fold outright it *might* just result in some more latitude to fly because I doubt very much they want to risk a losing a test case and getting a precedent set.
 
The new forest isn’t under any direct flight paths, and is otherwise safe, surely the worst that could happen if you did fly is a mild telling-off?
 
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Firstly, IANAL - this is just my findings from digging into this kind of scenario. Personally, I think blanket bans on open land like this are over reaching and unnecessary *provided* that the drone code is adhered to and the flight is safe.

However, there are some legal considerations here, even if you err on the side of caution and assume the byelaw actually exists (some landowners claim they have one when they do not; a byelaw has legal weight above and beyond normal landowner's rights and has to be applied for and granted). Many larger landowners do have such byelaws; many councils, The National Trust, and English Heritage for instance, and I would assume a park authority like the New Forest does too, but they are generally not specific to drones and may be being a bit free in their legal interpretation in order to include them in their granted byelaws. The NT's applicable byelaw dates from 1965 for instance, which obviously does not specifically cover drones, and actually states:

"No unauthorised person shall on Trust Property sell or offer or expose for sale any commodity or article or for the purpose of trade or reward take any photograph."

So, for commercial drone photography I'd say they're absolutely covered, but for purely recreational usage, especially given they don't have a blanket ban on photography and actively encourage it? Yeah, I don't rate their chances at all, but I still don't want to be the one that goes to court over it!

As far as the CAA is concerned they do not want to get involved in such cases and their default position is that provided there is no breach of the drone code, the take off/landing points are legal, and there are no safety incidents it is NOT their remit. Since they are responsible for *all* the airspace from the ground up in the UK (including Class G/uncontrolled airspace), the upshot of that is that if you can take off legally from public land, comply with the drone code, and do not have any safety incidents, then you are almost certainly free and clear as far as criminal law and the CAA is concerned.

Where you would have a possible legal problem is civil law. Byelaw or not, a landowner does have some rights to the airspace over their land, specifically "a right to to enjoy their land" and "a reasonable expectation of privacy". They are also perfectly entitled to issue a blanket ban on the operation of drones *from* their land, as is the case here (the drone code covers this too - you are supposed to have the permission of a landowner before you fly from their land). When it comes to an overflight, they do have the recourse of a civil suit against the pilot concerned - on either of the grounds above, or potentially a safety angle, including to farm animals and other wildlife.

If you do end up on the receiving end of a civil suit, then besides the obvious costs and other factors of going to court, the outcome will be very much down to the court depending on the specific scenario. For instance, there is no precise altitude defined where you would be legally OK for an overflight; whether you had breached the landowner's rights would be determined by the court based on any evidence presented.

On the plus side, come November (if all goes to plan), we'll all be registered, will have undertaken a mandatory safety exam of some kind, and will have some kind of card/registration number to prove it. Those default "In our experience, very few users have the correct training or permission from the Civil Aviation Authority to operate drones." style clauses go out of the window at that point as *all* registered drone operators will have the correct training and permission to operate from the CAA. That's going to make it much harder for them to justify their restrictions, and while I doubt they'll fold outright it *might* just result in some more latitude to fly because I doubt very much they want to risk a losing a test case and getting a precedent set.
you hit he nail on the head its not really about you flying over their land but more about using the images you get for commercial gain, they are worried that you are benefiting from the pics and they are loosing out in some commercial way if you do ask for permission to fly there they will want to charge you a large amount of money to do so with all sorts of restrictions being applied i do hope the new rules coming soon do improve matters
 
Firstly, IANAL - this is just my findings from digging into this kind of scenario. Personally, I think blanket bans on open land like this are over reaching and unnecessary *provided* that the drone code is adhered to and the flight is safe.

However, there are some legal considerations here, even if you err on the side of caution and assume the byelaw actually exists (some landowners claim they have one when they do not; a byelaw has legal weight above and beyond normal landowner's rights and has to be applied for and granted). Many larger landowners do have such byelaws; many councils, The National Trust, and English Heritage for instance, and I would assume a park authority like the New Forest does too, but they are generally not specific to drones and may be being a bit free in their legal interpretation in order to include them in their granted byelaws. The NT's applicable byelaw dates from 1965 for instance, which obviously does not specifically cover drones, and actually states:

"No unauthorised person shall on Trust Property sell or offer or expose for sale any commodity or article or for the purpose of trade or reward take any photograph."

So, for commercial drone photography I'd say they're absolutely covered, but for purely recreational usage, especially given they don't have a blanket ban on photography and actively encourage it? Yeah, I don't rate their chances at all, but I still don't want to be the one that goes to court over it!

As far as the CAA is concerned they do not want to get involved in such cases and their default position is that provided there is no breach of the drone code, the take off/landing points are legal, and there are no safety incidents it is NOT their remit. Since they are responsible for *all* the airspace from the ground up in the UK (including Class G/uncontrolled airspace), the upshot of that is that if you can take off legally from public land, comply with the drone code, and do not have any safety incidents, then you are almost certainly free and clear as far as criminal law and the CAA is concerned.

Where you would have a possible legal problem is civil law. Byelaw or not, a landowner does have some rights to the airspace over their land, specifically "a right to to enjoy their land" and "a reasonable expectation of privacy". They are also perfectly entitled to issue a blanket ban on the operation of drones *from* their land, as is the case here (the drone code covers this too - you are supposed to have the permission of a landowner before you fly from their land). When it comes to an overflight, they do have the recourse of a civil suit against the pilot concerned - on either of the grounds above, or potentially a safety angle, including to farm animals and other wildlife.

If you do end up on the receiving end of a civil suit, then besides the obvious costs and other factors of going to court, the outcome will be very much down to the court depending on the specific scenario. For instance, there is no precise altitude defined where you would be legally OK for an overflight; whether you had breached the landowner's rights would be determined by the court based on any evidence presented.

On the plus side, come November (if all goes to plan), we'll all be registered, will have undertaken a mandatory safety exam of some kind, and will have some kind of card/registration number to prove it. Those default "In our experience, very few users have the correct training or permission from the Civil Aviation Authority to operate drones." style clauses go out of the window at that point as *all* registered drone operators will have the correct training and permission to operate from the CAA. That's going to make it much harder for them to justify their restrictions, and while I doubt they'll fold outright it *might* just result in some more latitude to fly because I doubt very much they want to risk a losing a test case and getting a precedent set.
Thanks zocalo, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for November as well. If it's easier to some degree to fly in the US then something is wrong lol! It seems a case of let's just say no because we don't know what we're dealing or talking about. When it comes to being sensible and effect on wildlife, a drone is far less intrusive and even if you would have a comparitivley for arguments sake the same number in the air as there are cars on the parks' roads, we couldn't statistically have as many ponies run over or wildlife injured as we have by allowing cars on roads.
 
Quick update on the November stuff - finally managed to review the latest CAP from the CAA (CAP722) and there are a couple of bits of relevance to this thread that people here might want to know:

Registration becomes mandatory on November 30th. This is the first time I've seen an actual date beyond "November", so we actually have an extra month than may have been assumed for getting our tests and registrations done (assuming the system actually goes live on schedule in early October as was indicated elsewhere).

Our drone registration numbers seem like they are going to be of the form "Gxxxx", e.g. no different from any other UK registered aircraft, and will need to be clearly displayed on the aircraft. That basically underscores the fact that we are pilots operating under the ANO and there is no legal difference between a drone and (say) a 747 or A380; something that people who regard their drones as toys or think it's OK to take pot shots at them should take note of. IMHO, that also completely negates the "lack of CAA qualifications" angle that the NT et al often use to justify their bans.

There's also useful info in there about future adoption of ADS-B transponders, commercial SUAV operations, and a few other interesting points, so if you're interested in the future direction of UK aviation policy it's definitely worth a look.
 
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Quick update on the November stuff - finally managed to review the latest CAP from the CAA (CAP722) and there are a couple of bits of relevance to this thread that people here might want to know:

Registration becomes mandatory on November 30th. This is the first time I've seen an actual date beyond "November", so we actually have an extra month than may have been assumed for getting our tests and registrations done (assuming the system actually goes live on schedule in early October as was indicated elsewhere).

Our drone registration numbers seem like they are going to be of the form "Gxxxx", e.g. no different from any other UK registered aircraft, and will need to be clearly displayed on the aircraft. That basically underscores the fact that we are pilots operating under the ANO and there is no legal difference between a drone and (say) a 747 or A380; something that people who regard their drones as toys or think it's OK to take pot shots at them should take note of. IMHO, that also completely negates the "lack of CAA qualifications" angle that the NT et al often use to justify their bans.

There's also useful info in there about future adoption of ADS-B transponders, commercial SUAV operations, and a few other interesting points, so if you're interested in the future direction of UK aviation policy it's definitely worth a look.
Thanks for this, do you have a link for us to review? Assuming they still kept the lower 250g limit to not requiring certification?
 
Thanks for this, do you have a link for us to review? Assuming they still kept the lower 250g limit to not requiring certification?
Ignore me, seen the link! I also so the note this morning about fpv use. Very sensible and not just a blanket no which is reassuring to see that decisions seem to be made rationally and with thought.
 
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