Dispelling some myths for clarity

[possenorge]

I wish JamesM was still around in this thread, it has been an entertaining half hour of reading.

My best guess is that James, if you're out there buddy, got cold feet after ordering a Mavic and then learning about its limitations. To shift that creeping doubt-y feeling of making a bad decision (I know that feeling) away from himself he took it out on existing owners, to share the guilt with the rest of us with quotes from some YouTube videos he's been watching. Oh well, he has probably moved on to greener fields now.

Footage is of course, as many has stated out, not all about bits and bandwidth, but how you utilize your gear to compensate for its pros and cons. In TV we've used generations of GoPro with all their limitations for many years and it's all about planning the capture and processing it properly in post. Meaning, getting the most out of what we have rather than being too concerned about a small camera having limitations. 'Cause a GoPro will fit where your bulky F55 won't, and the Mavic will go with you in the backpack where the Inspire or even Phantom had to be left behind.

I've had some 90 flights with my Mavic during the last 3 months to supply some extra production value to different TV productions - and the results absolutely holds up. My Mavic shots, (when I took a lot of effort to make the most of what I've got), mixes with footage from Sony F55, Arri Amira, FS7, and C300 mkII at 1080. Meaning that the 8 bit D-log has to stand up to S-log3, Arrilog and C-log. When the final product is graded to a natural look that doesn't stray way off natural colors, the Mavic footage will in most cases and with decent onliner not "fall apart". Only issue I've had is that DJI footage is very sharpened and throws some trouble when used in broadcast, but I made another post on how we fix that.


Kind regards,
The Expert

I've also played Microsoft Flight Simulator a lot and I've got a fork lift certificate, so that will be SIR Expert to you people, I beg your pardon!

 

[stratos]

Next time buy an IMAX drone so you dont get dissapointed

 

[cptlores]

The fanboy stench in this thread is so thick I am having a hard time breathing..

There are MANY technical problems with the Mavic video chain that are not related to product price at all. They are just bad design plain and simple.
Number one is the ridiculously bad noise filtering done on video and Jpeg stills. Second is bad encoding quality for the given bitrate. This has almost no relevance with 8bit or 10bit or even sensor size. The way some of you talk, you don't even seem to know how those terms apply for camera sensors and video. So how can you then be in a position to say what is bad or good camera technology? Nobody uses 8-bit per channel raw sensor data for a commercial color video camera, nobody. 10bit is considered the absolute minimum with 12bit or better being preferred. Only after raw image debayering and processing (>=10bit), is the data compressed and stored as "8-bit" video. Usually YUV422 when we are talking about consumer product MPEG compression.

But all this is irrelevant. Simply because DJI Mavic has worst in class noise reduction (NR) filtering. I have NEVER seen NR as bad as with the Mavic. Not in a cheap point and shoot camera, not even in a mobile phone camera. The camera sensor could be 32bit for all we care, and it would not help as long as the current NR filter is in effect. If you haven't had footage ruined by the Mavic 'watercolor' effect, you have only been shooting in bright condition with lots of contrast. Or alternatively you are unable to spot even the most obvious problems with image quality.

Here is a 1:1 pixel crop from a Mavic 4K video frame just to show you how bad the NR filter is when you have low contrast video.

 

[Mr. Salty]

If that's what the video looks like from your Mavic it's because you've got some jacked-up video settings. Almost to the point that it looks like you're going out of your way to make it look bad.

 

[cptlores]

Yes, I provoked the NR filter by purposely filming when there was a total cloud cover resulting in flat light. Any camera will give good results under ideal conditions. It is when conditions are not ideal you measure a cameras worth. And I am not talking about getting colors that pop when the source is flat. Just basic image detail would be nice.. Image settings for that crop was D-Cinema (-1-1-1) btw.

 

[possenorge]

Then why are you using the built in NR to prove something when we all know it's crap - and never use it?

I use +1, apply a Mavic noise profile with Neat, and voila. No noise.

 

[cptlores]

First off. Sharpness has NOTHING to do with NR. They are totally different types of filters. In fact NR is a separate type of filter that should have it's own setting, including an OFF switch regardless of your sharpness level. This is plain and simple DJI being total amateurs when it comes to image processing. Who knows, maybe to make it simpler to use? But it's ruining video quality for no technical reason.

Second. If you can't see why applying to much sharpness in your master video recording is problematic, you are lacking fundamental understanding of video processing needed for this type of discussion. Hint. You can always add more sharpness later, but never remove it. Other clues are more pronounced aliasing and reduced compression efficiency. Something the Mavic is already struggling with.

 

[possenorge]

I don't disagree that NR I/O should not be linked to sharpness setting, probably no one on this board will. But as a consumer drone, I'm not surpriced to see that this is one of the simplified options. The Spark doesn't even have picture profiles or other framerates than 30p.

Don't worry about my fundamental understanding of video, I make my living from this just fine. You would rather have material that is a bit oversharpened than blurry. If your video is too blurry, the detail is gone and can not be brought back. Sharpening in post will rely on pixel data from surrounding pixels to identify edges, but if your software can't see much contrast you'll end up with a bad result.

As long as you stay away from more than +1 sharpness and 50p/60p you'll not see too much of aliasing on the Mavic, I've seen very little in 2,7K. I don't see aliasing/moiré as a problem with the Mavic compared to other consumer cameras that scale down by line-skipping, especially DSLRs without low pass filters.

You are very far off track with some of your statements, but seem to be very confident about your knowledge.

Anyhow. I asked why you'd on purpose produce a bad image from the Mavic. We've known for ages that NR doesn't work well with trees etc.

 

[collins]

[QUOTE="cptlores, post: 260360, member: 23291"]First off. Sharpness has NOTHING to do with NR. They are totally different types of filters. In fact NR is a separate type of filter that should have it's own setting, including an OFF switch regardless of your sharpness level. This is plain and simple DJI being total amateurs when it comes to image processing. Who knows, maybe to make it simpler to use? But it's ruining video quality for no technical reason.

Second. If you can't see why applying to much sharpness in your master video recording is problematic, you are lacking fundamental understanding of video processing needed for this type of discussion. Hint. You can always add more sharpness later, but never remove it. Other clues are more pronounced aliasing and reduced compression efficiency. Something the Mavic is already struggling with.[/QUOTE]

You probably ought to watch this video. Sharpness 'should' be a difference setting to 'NR' but in the Mavic's case it is 'not' which is why you dont have a 'NR' setting on the Mavic.

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[Kestrel]

Late to the party but in my case the Mavic is fine.
All I do is Youtube videos, i'm never going to film a major motion picture or be set out on some wild documentary, i'm just a guy that flies on his days off from work.
I make my videos mainly for myself since I don't have a large viewer base, its given me the ability to see things from a whole new perspective. Sure i'd love to own a top of the line drone that could be used in creating a movie but my budget doesn't allow it, like I said im just an average joe and to me the videos it produces is just fine. Bottom line is if you enjoy the video that comes out of your Mavic then that's all the matters, if you don't, then buy something else.

 

[cptlores]

I don't disagree that NR I/O should not be linked to sharpness setting, probably no one on this board will. But as a consumer drone, I'm not surpriced to see that this is one of the simplified options. The Spark doesn't even have picture profiles or other framerates than 30p.

If they wanted to hide the NR settings for simplicity, at least make sure the forced NR filter works as intended. Right now it is doing more harm then good. What we have now is not normal NR filter behavior. It's either very badly implemented or they have it cranked up to 11 as standard.

Don't worry about my fundamental understanding of video, I make my living from this just fine. You would rather have material that is a bit oversharpened than blurry. If your video is too blurry, the detail is gone and can not be brought back. Sharpening in post will rely on pixel data from surrounding pixels to identify edges, but if your software can't see much contrast you'll end up with a bad result.

Then why are you confusing optical sharpness with a sharpness filter? The Mavic sharpness filter does the exact same function as a sharpness filter in your video editor. The only difference is that the Mavic filter has access to raw image data. But on the other side your video editor usaly has a better quality sharpening filter, since it is not restricted by the resources available in the camera real-time processing chip.

As long as you stay away from more than +1 sharpness and 50p/60p you'll not see too much of aliasing on the Mavic, I've seen very little in 2,7K. I don't see aliasing/moiré as a problem with the Mavic compared to other consumer cameras that scale down by line-skipping, especially DSLRs without low pass filters.

+1 will also make inter frame flickering more pronounced in Mavic footage. And again, you cannot remove sharpness in edit, only add it. So it is always best to record without if you plan on doing post processing anyways. For direct to YouTube type of recording, I agree that +1 works fine for the most part.

You are very far off track with some of your statements, but seem to be very confident about your knowledge.

Then please enlighten me. I would be happy to admit any such faults. I am just writing in the tone used by others in this thread when they attacked the thread starter.

Anyhow. I asked why you'd on purpose produce a bad image from the Mavic. We've known for ages that NR doesn't work well with trees etc.

Because there is no technical reason why the NR filter should be this bad. Regardless of price. It is just bad image processing plain and simple. And the number one job of the Mavic is to record video and take photos. I really don't understand why I have to explain this, or why people feel the need to defend DJI on this topic.

 

[Strafe1]

If they wanted to hide the NR settings for simplicity, at least make sure the forced NR filter works as intended. Right now it is doing more harm then good. What we have now is not normal NR filter behavior. It's either very badly implemented or they have it cranked up to 11 as standard.



Then why are you confusing optical sharpness with a sharpness filter? The Mavic sharpness filter does the exact same function as a sharpness filter in your video editor. The only difference is that the Mavic filter has access to raw image data.



+1 will also make inter frame flickering more pronounced in Mavic footage. And again, you cannot remove sharpness in edit, only add it. So it is always best to record without if you plan on doing post processing anyways. For direct to YouTube type of recording, I agree that +1 works fine for the most part.



Then please enlighten me. I would be happy to admit any such faults.



Because there is no technical reason why the NR filter should be this bad. Regardless of price. It is just bad image processing plain and simple. And the number one job of the Mavic is to record video and take photos. I really don't understand why I have to explain this, or why people feel the need to defend DJI on this topic.

Not sure what your problem is. Most of us know the camera is cell phone quality. This post is about the mediocre camera quality PLUS the inability to capture an even remotely good image. Most of us have been arguing that good if not great images can be taken. While it is likely that post processing is required to create footage that can be used professionally, it is not difficult nor time consuming to do so. If you haven't seen the pro quality footage that is everywhere online to be seen, then you haven't looked. Again, most of the knowledgeable videographers here are aware of the shortcomings of the hardware and software. It's not about saying it's great stuff. It's about the fact that we can inexpensively fly this camera under 3 axis stabilization, capture footage than can be used personally and professionally.
You make it sound like the Mavic is useless and a pitiful example of a flying camera. Well, plenty of Pro users say otherwise.

 

[collins]

Because there is no technical reason why the NR filter should be this bad. Regardless of price. It is just bad image processing plain and simple. And the number one job of the Mavic is to record video and take photos. I really don't understand why I have to explain this, or why people feel the need to defend DJI on this topic.

I am not so sure that everyone is out to defend DJI - it is more a case of people pointing out that one of the reasons for your poor video quality is that you have chosen settings that will inevitably deteriorate the image quality (-1 sharpness) - this is a merely a case of 'user error'.

 

[stratos]

The fanboy stench in this thread is so thick I am having a hard time breathing..

There are MANY technical problems with the Mavic video chain that are not related to product price at all. They are just bad design plain and simple.
Number one is the ridiculously bad noise filtering done on video and Jpeg stills. Second is bad encoding quality for the given bitrate. This has almost no relevance with 8bit or 10bit or even sensor size. The way some of you talk, you don't even seem to know how those terms apply for camera sensors and video. So how can you then be in a position to say what is bad or good camera technology? Nobody uses 8-bit per channel raw sensor data for a commercial color video camera, nobody. 10bit is considered the absolute minimum with 12bit or better being preferred. Only after raw image debayering and processing (>=10bit), is the data compressed and stored as "8-bit" video. Usually YUV422 when we are talking about consumer product MPEG compression.

But all this is irrelevant. Simply because DJI Mavic has worst in class noise reduction (NR) filtering. I have NEVER seen NR as bad as with the Mavic. Not in a cheap point and shoot camera, not even in a mobile phone camera. The camera sensor could be 32bit for all we care, and it would not help as long as the current NR filter is in effect. If you haven't had footage ruined by the Mavic 'watercolor' effect, you have only been shooting in bright condition with lots of contrast. Or alternatively you are unable to spot even the most obvious problems with image quality.

Here is a 1:1 pixel crop from a Mavic 4K video frame just to show you how bad the NR filter is when you have low contrast video.

View attachment 17973

This was definetly shot with -1 or -2 in sharpness. Worst settings that you can shoot with.

 

[cptlores]

You guys are missing the point completely. There should not be blurred spots like what we are getting regardless of shooting conditions or camera settings. I have never seen NR behaving this bad on any other camera. Have you? I would prefer some image noise from a small sensor any day, over this.

Second, you are confusing cause and effect. From a technical viewpoint sharpness and NR are not related in any way. Setting sharpness to +1 should not also affect NR settings. But for some reason DJI decided this was the way to do it. Again not normal practice for camera processing in any way.

 

[collins]

You guys are missing the point completely. There should not be blurred spots like what we are getting regardless of shooting conditions or camera settings. I have never seen NR behaving this bad on any other camera. Have you? I would prefer some image noise from a small sensor any day, over this.

Second, you are confusing cause and effect. From a technical viewpoint sharpness and NR are not related in any way. Setting sharpness to +1 should not also affect NR settings. But for some reason DJI decided this was the way to do it. Again not normal practice for camera processing in any way.

Hmmmm....

First off. Sharpness has NOTHING to do with NR. They are totally different types of filters. In fact NR is a separate type of filter that should have it's own setting, including an OFF switch regardless of your sharpness level. This is plain and simple DJI being total amateurs when it comes to image processing. Who knows, maybe to make it simpler to use? But it's ruining video quality for no technical reason.

Second. If you can't see why applying to much sharpness in your master video recording is problematic, you are lacking fundamental understanding of video processing needed for this type of discussion. Hint. You can always add more sharpness later, but never remove it. Other clues are more pronounced aliasing and reduced compression efficiency. Something the Mavic is already struggling with.

+1 sharp



0 sharp



-1 sharp



...all stills from video....

 

[Michael Ainsworth]

I believe the main contention here is that someone's first ever post on the forum was to go out of his way to disparage the Mavics capabilities.
No Hi there inroduction, just a you guys suck and so does the camera.
Guaranteed to get a reaction. I believe he was a Troll and gets his ***** *** by deliberately baiting people.
We all know the limitations of the Camera due mainly to its physical size. With careful planning and post production effort you can get some good shots.
If you don't like it then spend the money to get a professional one, why bother to come here and pull down the unit.I'm happy with my shots, will never be famous but at least I'm happy.

 

[DB Cooper]

View attachment 17336
Joined today, not even a proper intro?
Just bag the camera, tell us what settings we should use?
My breathe is bated.
By the way I don't shoot Dlog as a well experienced photographer just suggested
a few tweaks to the settings and the correct ND filters.
Saying that I shoot to the max my cam allows.
All edits done on computer through Resolve, Lightroom and Photoshop as needed.
I believe 4k is also outdated now, unfortunately I am recently retired so do not have oodles of the green stuff to outlay on next months flavour.
Still remember the Vic 20 as top of line computer.
More isn't necessarily better.
Just revisit the early black and white photographers.

BRAVO!

 

[UAVMan]

Lol contentious post all be it a little out of place, I've recently sold an Inspire drone originally purchased with accessories for around 5k. I had the option to upgrade the gimbal to an x5r for a very discounted rate, ie. 2k but chose to go in another direction.

I choose practicality and opportunity over video quality, primarily because 90% of media is seen in 1080p on mobile devices currently. During the 2 years using inspire I missed many chances to grab awesome footage due to its size and the logistics.

Hence I now own the Mavic and have already used it in more locations while travelling than I ever used the I1. It goes everywhere with me while MTB'ing around Canada. Recording in 4k and cropping too 1080p or 1080p at 60fps for faster action shots. Found dlog setting to be useful although a little colour grading knowledge or a nice LUT helps.

I suppose my point after all the waffling is if you want a true professional platform for 100mbs RAW footage grab an 8k Inspire 2 with gimbals and lenses.... For non stop footage capture and never missing that shot, MAVIC.

 

[dirkclod]

Well after reading all this now all I can say is I'm quite happy with mine and all the pictures and video's I have watched from the members here
are great .I just hope all you guy's can see what I do as far as when the OP was last on as it was 7 day's ago .
Am not saying to stop posting am just saying