FAA Drone ID Proposal:

[sar104]

Ok, so earlier you said “The aircraft needs to be capable of connecting to the internet via the mobile device, and needs to transmit the required elements to a subscription USS if the internet is available.” So in remote areas, one of the ways to really do it reliably could be through a satellite transmitter, yes?

OK so what happens when the aircraft cannot connect to the Internet, doesn’t that mean it’s a no fly?

No - "If the internet is unavailable at takeoff, or if during the flight, the unmanned aircraft can no longer transmit through an internet connection to a Remote ID USS, the UAS would have to broadcast the message elements directly from the unmanned aircraft from takeoff to landing." I really don't understand the confusion here.

 

[Camino Ken]

Ok, so earlier you said “The aircraft needs to be capable of connecting to the internet via the mobile device, and needs to transmit the required elements to a subscription USS if the internet is available.” So in remote areas, one of the ways to really do it reliably could be through a satellite transmitter, yes?

OK so what happens when the aircraft cannot connect to the Internet, doesn’t that mean it’s a no fly?

Read posts #482 and #488. They answer your question.

 

[Camino Ken]

No - "If the internet is unavailable at takeoff, or if during the flight, the unmanned aircraft can no longer transmit through an internet connection to a Remote ID USS, the UAS would have to broadcast the message elements directly from the unmanned aircraft from takeoff to landing." I really don't understand the confusion here.

I admire your patience.

 

[pross]

I really don't understand the confusion here.

Were in the facebook age, people read the topic title and the 1st post and maybe the last couple of comments only. Fair play to you tho for being persistent.

 

[sar104]

I admire your patience.

It's being seriously tested.

 

[Greg Smithski]

Mexico?

The government will pay for it so it'll be free. And I can't believe a USS subscription will only be 2.50 a month. But if, I can live with 30 a year. Oh, and a new cellular capable iPad and cellular carrier and...?

 

[Rangerider]

For the third time, I asked you to cite any other instances of The FAA overstepping its authority and enacting an illegal regulation. I was trying to make a point about, in this particular case, the futility of the recreational drone community taking on the FAA in court.

To be sure heads at the FAA would have rolled following their losing the case that you brought up - very embarrassing for them indeed. That's not going to happen again, especially in regard to this new and highly significant proposal.

But in any case I'll be happy to take back my assertion about the anomaly, the one-off. I figure that you have spent the last hour or so feverishly googling and have triumphantly found something that you now have up your sleeve. Hit me big fella !

Pete:
The Feds just pass a law whenever they need to for their corporate masters. So by definition, everything they do is according to the law even when it isn't. I do agree that the unorganized recreational drone community would be wasting their time in court unless they got organized. Forums like this might make them think they are organized but they really aren't. Sounds a lot like goading to me.

 

[Rangerider]

No - "If the internet is unavailable at takeoff, or if during the flight, the unmanned aircraft can no longer transmit through an internet connection to a Remote ID USS, the UAS would have to broadcast the message elements directly from the unmanned aircraft from takeoff to landing." I really don't understand the confusion here.

Okay so does that mean that if the drone is broadcasting without an internet connection either directly or via the remote controller that even if there is no station to receive the broadcast that there would be a violation of the law? In that event what would the drone do or require the drone operator to do? would the drone just return sheepishly to home? would it just land immediately? Would the drone return to home and just be locked up?

 

[AMann]

No confusion- the wording in the last part ambiguous; if there is no internet available, then the UAS is just allowed to broadcast in the blind from takeoff to landing?

As DJI drones do that anyways, what’s the issue besides perhaps the current drone telemetry being in a format different from what might be used in the future.

 

[sar104]

Okay so does that mean that if the drone is broadcasting without an internet connection either directly or via the remote controller that even if there is no station to receive the broadcast that there would be a violation of the law? In that event what would the drone do or require the drone operator to do? would the drone just return sheepishly to home? would it just land immediately? Would the drone return to home and just be locked up?

No - again (how many times do I have to repeat this?) the requirement is to transmit the required data elements. The aircraft isn't even going to know if a receiver is listening. Just like ADS-B.

 

[sar104]

No confusion- the wording in the last part ambiguous; if there is no internet available, then the UAS is just allowed to broadcast in the blind from takeoff to landing?

As DJI drones do that anyways, what’s the issue besides perhaps the current drone telemetry being in a format different from what might be used in the future.

Exactly. And since DJI is heavily involved here, agreement that the radio frequencies used by DJI are part of the approved spectrum seems very likely.

 

[B52-D]

Cant we all just get along.

 

[AMann]

No confusion- the wording in the last part ambiguous; if there is no internet available, then the UAS is just allowed to broadcast in the blind from takeoff to landing?

As DJI drones do that anyways, what’s the issue besides perhaps the current drone telemetry being in a format different from what might be used in the future.

Exactly. And since DJI is heavily involved here, agreement that the radio frequencies used by DJI are part of the approved spectrum seems very likely.

Got it. So now I wonder what percent of users here actually have their UUID settings enabled and their ID information entered on their DJIGo4 app? That may become mandatory in future editions...

 

[Phochief]

I think that some of the confusion is attributed to when a UAS communicates with a UAS User ID Service Supplier via the internet versus the option of a drone "broadcasting" it's data via radio frequencies. The FAA website indicates that at this point they don't really know exactly how the direct broadcast ID will be implemented and "Over the next year the FAA Remote ID Cohort will work with the FAA to develop the technology requirements applicable to future FAA qualified remote ID UAS providers."

This graphic illustrates essentially the difference between the three types of UAS ID methods in the proposed rule making (note that Standard Remote ID uses radio broadcast from drone to a tower which inputs it into the internet and then to the USS, in addition to the option of a pilot connecting directly to the internet):

 

[Terry63]

Finally! I have almost caught up with the end of this thread. I say almost because currently it is running faster than I can type. I have read large portions of the FAA proposal, the opening pages and those that have been referenced on this thread.

Drones flight in rural areas is my main concern since I live pretty far out in the boonies.

Some people seem to be convinced that our late model DJI drones are already equipped with Remote Identification
Technology. I believe that is only partially correct.

Right now our DJI drones (mine is a Mavic Pro)are connected to our remote controllers by radio waves. In turn our controller is connected to our Phone or Tablet by a USB cable. The Device (phone/tablet) is connected to a wifi router by radio waves ect. ect. Since the Go4 app can connect to DJI servers ( Not sure if this is done in near real time) I would think it would be a matter of software updates to connect via the above links to a Remote ID USS. There by meeting the requirements for Limited Remote Identification. Of course a paid subscription to a USS is also required.

Having met the requirement for LRI, I could fly in class G airspace any where I could link up with wifi, or cellular if I have a data plan. (not all tablets are cellular capable) Of course I would be limited to my 400' by 800' diameter cylinder imposed by the software.

I don,t believe that Standard Remote Identification capability can possibly be built into our current drones. Because the standard has yet to be determined. If the starting standard has been determined and leaked to industry officials then in fact this document would be a lie.

( From page 119 of FAA proposal)

XII. Means of Compliance
A. Introduction
Performance-based regulations describe outcomes, goals, or results without establishing a
specific means or process for regulated entities to follow. Under certain FAA performance-based
rules, a person may use a means of compliance to meet these performance requirements.
The FAA recognizes that UAS technology is continually evolving, making it necessary to
harmonize new regulatory action with technological growth. Setting performance requirements is
one way to promote that harmonization. Developing a regulatory framework with performancebased requirements rather than prescriptive text provides a flexible regulation that allows a
person to develop means of compliance – which may include consensus standards – that adjust to
the fast pace of technological change, innovation, design, and development while still meeting
the regulatory requirements. The FAA believes that the use of an FAA-accepted consensus
standard as a means of compliance would provide stakeholders this flexibility to comply with the
remote identification requirement.

Interest in this hobby, For me that is what it is a hobby. Has led me into among other things getting a General Operator Ham Radio license. So I do have a basic understanding of radio.

Current RC usually operates in the 2.4Ghz or 5.8Ghz. frequency bands. The reason being that these bands are open for public use within their associated regulations. So a manufacturer can built equipment that will broadcast on 2.4Ghz up to 1 watt of power. Its a bit more complicated than that as the regulation defines the power in decibels but 1 watt is a close approximation.

Not all frequency bands are equal, as frequency increases electromagnetic waves propagate differently. For example a radio wave will easily pass through a sheet of black plastic, but light waves will mostly be blocked. Higher frequencies in general have less ability to penetrate objects. The 2.4Ghz and 5.8Ghz bands are far from the ideal frequency range for radio broadcast. FM Radio and Broadcast Television have the prime real estate in frequency bands.

Since this is possibly going to be a totally new system I think it would be a huge opportunity missed if the FAA does not get the FCC to open up one of their unassigned bands for use in this system. These bands are few and scattered about in the RF spectrum but there might be one available closer to prime real estate.

This is my reasoning on why I don,t believe that Standard Remote Identification capability can possibly be built into our current drones. Because a frequency band(s) would have to be determined.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

I think that some of the confusion is attributed to when a UAS communicates with a UAS User ID Service Supplier via the internet versus the option of a drone "broadcasting" it's data via radio frequencies. The FAA website indicates that at this point they don't really know exactly how the direct broadcast ID will be implemented and "Over the next year the FAA Remote ID Cohort will work with the FAA to develop the technology requirements applicable to future FAA qualified remote ID UAS providers."

This graphic illustrates essentially the difference between the three types of UAS ID methods in the proposed rule making (note that Standard Remote ID uses radio broadcast from drone to a tower which inputs it into the internet and then to the USS, in addition to the option of a pilot connecting directly to the internet):
View attachment 89121

That diagram certainly confuses things, first diagram is what DJI should be, and with the arrows all pointing through internet connection.
No mention of "If the internet is unavailable at takeoff, the standard remote identification UAS would only be required to broadcast the message elements directly from the unmanned aircraft. "

I suppose the diagram is 3 ways OF remotely identifying, not what happens if you can't due to no internet availability.

 

[sar104]

Finally! I have almost caught up with the end of this thread. I say almost because currently it is running faster than I can type. I have read large portions of the FAA proposal, the opening pages and those that have been referenced on this thread.

Drones flight in rural areas is my main concern since I live pretty far out in the boonies.

Some people seem to be convinced that our late model DJI drones are already equipped with Remote Identification
Technology. I believe that is only partially correct.

Right now our DJI drones (mine is a Mavic Pro)are connected to our remote controllers by radio waves. In turn our controller is connected to our Phone or Tablet by a USB cable. The Device (phone/tablet) is connected to a wifi router by radio waves ect. ect. Since the Go4 app can connect to DJI servers ( Not sure if this is done in near real time) I would think it would be a matter of software updates to connect via the above links to a Remote ID USS. There by meeting the requirements for Limited Remote Identification. Of course a paid subscription to a USS is also required.

Having met the requirement for LRI, I could fly in class G airspace any where I could link up with wifi, or cellular if I have a data plan. (not all tablets are cellular capable) Of course I would be limited to my 400' by 800' diameter cylinder imposed by the software.

I don,t believe that Standard Remote Identification capability can possibly be built into our current drones. Because the standard has yet to be determined. If the starting standard has been determined and leaked to industry officials then in fact this document would be a lie.

( From page 119 of FAA proposal)

XII. Means of Compliance
A. Introduction
Performance-based regulations describe outcomes, goals, or results without establishing a
specific means or process for regulated entities to follow. Under certain FAA performance-based
rules, a person may use a means of compliance to meet these performance requirements.
The FAA recognizes that UAS technology is continually evolving, making it necessary to
harmonize new regulatory action with technological growth. Setting performance requirements is
one way to promote that harmonization. Developing a regulatory framework with performancebased requirements rather than prescriptive text provides a flexible regulation that allows a
person to develop means of compliance – which may include consensus standards – that adjust to
the fast pace of technological change, innovation, design, and development while still meeting
the regulatory requirements. The FAA believes that the use of an FAA-accepted consensus
standard as a means of compliance would provide stakeholders this flexibility to comply with the
remote identification requirement.

Interest in this hobby, For me that is what it is a hobby. Has led me into among other things getting a General Operator Ham Radio license. So I do have a basic understanding of radio.

Current RC usually operates in the 2.4Ghz or 5.8Ghz. frequency bands. The reason being that these bands are open for public use within their associated regulations. So a manufacturer can built equipment that will broadcast on 2.4Ghz up to 1 watt of power. Its a bit more complicated than that as the regulation defines the power in decibels but 1 watt is a close approximation.

Not all frequency bands are equal, as frequency increases electromagnetic waves propagate differently. For example a radio wave will easily pass through a sheet of black plastic, but light waves will mostly be blocked. Higher frequencies in general have less ability to penetrate objects. The 2.4Ghz and 5.8Ghz bands are far from the ideal frequency range for radio broadcast. FM Radio and Broadcast Television have the prime real estate in frequency bands.

Since this is possibly going to be a totally new system I think it would be a huge opportunity missed if the FAA does not get the FCC to open up one of their unassigned bands for use in this system. These bands are few and scattered about in the RF spectrum but there might be one available closer to prime real estate.

This is my reasoning on why I don,t believe that Standard Remote Identification capability can possibly be built into our current drones. Because a frequency band(s) would have to be determined.

It's already been stated that the frequencies used will be wifi bands, which works just fine for DJI equipment, as Aeroscope demonstrates.

 

[Phochief]

That diagram certainly confuses things, first diagram is what DJI should be, and with the arrows all pointing through internet connection.
No mention of "If the internet is unavailable at takeoff, the standard remote identification UAS would only be required to broadcast the message elements directly from the unmanned aircraft. "

I suppose the diagram is 3 ways OF remotely identifying, not what happens if you can't due to no internet availability.

True. Regarding Standard ID you *should* try connecting directly through the internet with your cellphone or WiFi, but if you can't connect that way, then you can (or must) connect via a radio broadcast directly from the drone. Of course this is all conjecture at this point because the proposed rule and technology will probably change over the next three years.

 

[sar104]

That diagram certainly confuses things, first diagram is what DJI should be, and with the arrows all pointing through internet connection.
No mention of "If the internet is unavailable at takeoff, the standard remote identification UAS would only be required to broadcast the message elements directly from the unmanned aircraft. "

I suppose the diagram is 3 ways OF remotely identifying, not what happens if you can't due to no internet availability.

That's part of the problem with many of the articles and YT videos etc. They have focused on the capability requirement to be able to communicate via the internet as well as direct radio broadcast, but either not mentioned that the operational requirement is only to do so when an internet connection is available, or actually mis-stated that it must always do that.

 

[sar104]

True. Regarding Standard ID you *should* try connecting directly through the internet with your cellphone or WiFi, but if you can't connect that way, then you can (or must) connect via a radio broadcast directly from the drone.

To be precise - SRID compliance requires the aircraft always to broadcast directly, and to transmit to a USS via an internet connection if available.