Flight restriction in national parks.

[brett8883]

As for one of those people who were and ARE "contorting themselves into pretzels defending and justifying the National Park ban" I take offense to your words. I spend a LOT of time in the woods away from modern tech in order to enjoy nature "As it is". The last thing I want to see/hear is a noisy aUAS beebopping around and spoiling the whole reason we went into the woods to begin with. That's also why in many of "Said places" you won't see powered bikes, ATV's, 4x4 etc. Heck a lot of the NPS land where I am located is genuine Wilderness Area and they can't even place signage for hikers etc because it would spoil the WILDERNESS.

Go find somewhere else to fly that does NOT ruin it for those who are there to enjoy it as it is!!!

I respect your positions and I agree with you in most cases but look, the fact of the matter is that 615.3 million acres of land (27% of the total US land mass) is owned and protected by the federal government and another only God knows how much is protected by State Parks.

There is plenty of space so that you can enjoy your wilderness and I can enjoy my drone. We all own that land and all have equal right to it. I take offense to the fact that anyone would believe that their use of the land is takes priority over someone else’s. We do have to respect wildlife and leave it in the same conditions as when we got there but it seems to me that there could be large areas of that 615 million acres that could be off limits to drones while still giving us plenty of space so you could do what you want to do and I could do what I want to do.

 

[dronerdave]

Many national parks are already overcrowded at the scenic spots that make the park what it is. I just can't imagine letting somebody use a drone in those areas. Even in spots like Yellowstone, there are areas photographers are restricted from where they can shoot from. I was at old faithful and some idiot just had to walk out into the restricted area to capture several great shots of a better than normal geyser eruption. Meanwhile he ruined the opportunity for me and hundreds of other visitors from getting our pics without him in the foreground. There were plenty of people yelling for him to get out so it was total selfishness on that guys part due to an entitlement type attitude. Add the fact that there are so many uneducated drone owners who break current rules that don't even know they are breaking laws, it seems that the NPS was quicker on the draw than the FAA in controlling drone operators. It's obvious the "on your honor" idea isn't working now so I doubt things will change. The park service is already trying to limit vehicles due to high traffic in some parks and I doubt they want to add drones to worry about. Maybe one day (when law enforcement knows when and where you are flying) the park service might open up some areas to drones provided users abide by the parks rules or receive a fine in the mail.

Photographers flocking to see sunset reflecting off a waterfall caused the NPS to require a permit to shoot from this area. Just one drone flying in front of them would probably upset a few of them. I know it would me.

 

[sar104]

I respect your positions and I agree with you in most cases but look, the fact of the matter is that 615.3 million acres of land (27% of the total US land mass) is owned and protected by the federal government and another only God knows how much is protected by State Parks.

There is plenty of space so that you can enjoy your wilderness and I can enjoy my drone. We all own that land and all have equal right to it. I take offense to the fact that anyone would believe that their use of the land is takes priority over someone else’s. We do have to respect wildlife and leave it in the same conditions as when we got there but it seems to me that there could be large areas of that 615 million acres that could be off limits to drones while still giving us plenty of space so you could do what you want to do and I could do what I want to do.

Of that 615 million acres of federal public land, 400 million acres is non-wilderness USFS and BLM. And on almost all of that, drones are allowed.

 

[zamboni]

They just don’t want us to visit their precious parks in case our pictures encourage too many others and disturb nature

Some NPs are not that busy; maybe you're lucky enough to be near one of those, but many of them are far from isolated. They [Language Removed by ADMIN] aren't trying to discourage visitors. Have you been to Zion? It makes me want to throw up, all the humanity that is stuffed into that poor canyon. Tossing their trash on the ground, [Language Removed by ADMIN]..and leaving behind all sorts of things like sunglasses, cameras, water bottles -- stuff that doesn't even fly. Only thing worse than having to deal with all that would be having to hear the swarms of bees. The crowd you find in NPs is not generally in the thoughtful, considerate, and responsible camp (unlike most of the folks on this forum, thankfully). I may sound cynical, but if you haven't seen it in person, it's hard to really convey. Nothing about the situation sounds good for drone use to me.

Okay, yeah, the government made a blanket rule that is out of place in some jurisdictions. Yeah...that's never happened before. Or do you think the feds should spend more of our money setting up a committee to decide drone regs on a case-by-case basis in each NP? It annoys me when people try to argue with rules. Even if they're stupid, they're rules. The point is, as responsible citizens, we follow the rules, even when we disagree. I mean, TSA checkpoints? Do you argue with those folks, too?? There are ways to address stupid rules...they are slow and suck and mostly don't work but that's the price we pay to live in a functioning society. Feeling justified in doing otherwise is never an excuse.

Some are incredulous that NPs have banned drones; I'd be appalled if they hadn't. I'm happy to not-fly while in NPs.

 

[Dogpilot]

Not to go too much against the grain here. I live in Flagstaff, AZ. We have 3 National Parks within a 25 mile radius, Grand Canyon, Wapatki/Sunset Crater and Walnut Canyon. I can sum it up for you very succinctly: Tourists are idiots. We have folks fall into the canyon all the time taking selfies. People crowding around bull elks in rut. People with apparently less than the minimum number of chromosomes putting graffiti on the indian ruins. At the Grand Canyon, there are almost 7 million visitors a year. If only 1 in a thousand is a total twit, that is tens of thousands of twits a year. Now not a huge number of folks are in the intersecting Venn Diagrams of Total Twit and Drone Flyer. However enough would stream into the park and cause mayhem.

We had similar issues at Burning Man, where I was the Air Safety Officer for a couple of years. We had a well set up drone certification program that had a class right at the beginning of the event to educate flyers as to the rules and safety aspects. Didn't work, due to non-participants to the program. "well he is flying his drone, must be ok." We had injuries and people doing just plain dumb stuff. It is actually very hard to track down a bad player in a crowd. So we said no more, it is the same now at AfrikaBurn, we stopped them there as well. You cannot control the good vs bad players, since they are nearly impossible to find. There is the aspect of substances they may or may not be taking which made it even more dangerous. Folks do the exact same thing here at the parks, substance wise.

There are some really painfully stupid people out there. They will not be the ones participating on this board. All they need to fly a drone is a credit card. The person you need to imagine is one of those You Tube/Instagram influencers types, you know the ones that blow themselves up or fall off a cliff and so on while doing their "look at me" BS. We eliminate usually around 40-70 of these folks a year from the gene pool here a year. There is a dead one in the Little Colorado gorge that the Sheriff's S&R team looked and said , "that's where he's buried, we're not going down to get him."

NPS being difficult about permits. Nothing new. They are rather thick and lazy about many things. For example, I can land my aircraft on any Forest Service road, it is in the CFR code. The rangers will still try to arrest you, so you bring a copy of the code. Now their latest thing is, "well you don't have an ATV sticker, it is a motorized vehicle." So they are somewhat exasperating to deal with as well.

 

[Cybernaut]

I made the mistake of focusing on finding the best drone for my needs. I did not dig into rules and restrictions. I selected the Mavic Pro.

My original intention was to use it on hiking trips into the Superstition Mountains. Guess what? The Superstitions are a designated wilderness area. No drones allowed.

I then thought I could use it on hikes around Four Peaks, the highest mountain in our area. Guess what? it is also a designated wilderness area. No drones allowed.

I then thought I could fly it when I visited my brother in rural Arkansas. Guess what? There are three private airports in the area. None would answer their phones and the DJI app would not let me fly in the area, nor would it let me override the restriction.

My next idea was to fly on the Arizona State Trust Land near me. This is undeveloped public desert land, but you need a permit to use it for recreation. I do have a permit. Guess what? it's posted for No Motorized Vehicles. A drone is considered to be a motorized vehicle, so I cannot legally fly there, either. No drones allowed.

The restrictions already in place were a surprise to me. The current FAA proposals would have discouraged me from buying a drone entirely.

When they get the Remote ID systems online, you can bet that national parks will be looking for violators.

 

[sar104]

I made the mistake of focusing on finding the best drone for my needs. I did not dig into rules and restrictions. I selected the Mavic Pro.

My original intention was to use it on hiking trips into the Superstition Mountains. Guess what? The Superstitions are a designated wilderness area.

I then thought I could use it on hikes around Four Peaks, the highest mountain in our area. Guess what? it is also a designated wilderness area.

That's correct. No motorized operations in wilderness.

I then thought I could fly it when I visited my brother in rural Arkansas. Guess what? There are three private airports in the area. None would answer their phones and the DJI app would not let me fly in the area, nor would it let me override the restriction.

That's incorrect - private airports are never DJI restricted zones. At most they will be authorization zones and you can self-unlock. Most are just warning zones.

The restrictions already in place were a surprise to me. The current FAA proposals would have discouraged me from buying a drone entirely.

And that's the problem with this recreational industry right now - it's far too easy to buy one and fly without even bothering to learn about the law.

When they get the Remote ID systems online, you can bet that national parks will be looking for violators.

Presumably - the entire point of the proposal is to make the laws more enforceable.

It's disappointing to recall how many people complained that the laws were dumb because they were unenforceable, and are now complaining that the FAA is proposing a solution to enable them to be more enforceable.

 

[BigAl07]

I made the mistake of focusing on finding the best drone for my needs. I did not dig into rules and restrictions. I selected the Mavic Pro.

My original intention was to use it on hiking trips into the Superstition Mountains. Guess what? The Superstitions are a designated wilderness area. No drones allowed.

Keep in mind that Wilderness Areas don't allow any motorized devices... not JUST drones.

I then thought I could fly it when I visited my brother in rural Arkansas. Guess what? There are three private airports in the area. None would answer their phones and the DJI app would not let me fly in the area, nor would it let me override the restriction.

As of last fall we aren't allowed to call ATC to request approval in controlled airspace. You either use LAANC (if the airport is participating) or you utilize the FAA Drone Zone to submit a request if it isn't. If it's in Class G airspace you can fly but you can NOT interfere with manned aircraft at all.

 

[Marko9219]

A crashed drone could destroy Yellowstone’s Grand Prismatic Spring

• Because there are idiots among us. The ban was implemented shortly after this incident. Reason enough for me. I don't want drones in the National Parks unless they are being used for research, safety or search & rescue reasons in an official status. I'm a drone pilot. For years. I've been flying RC aircraft since I was a young kid. I'm 65 years old now and I'll fight, hard, to keep these noisy things out of the Parks. Prior to the ban, I was in Grand Teton NP enjoying lunch in a roadside pullout. A guy pulls into, drops his tailgate, sits on it and launched his drone. For the next 20 minutes I listened to the noise of that thing. I was praying hard he'd crash it right then and there. That was my first ever drone encounter in a NP and it cemented my belief forever.

 

[Ray Dunakin]

When it comes right down to it, the only reason is that some people don't like drones and don't want to see or hear them. So the obvious solution is don't fly your drone if there are people in the area.

 

[sar104]

When it comes right down to it, the only reason is that some people don't like drones and don't want to see or hear them. So the obvious solution is don't fly your drone if there are people in the area.

That's one reason, but certainly not the only one.

 

[AirShark]

From the National Park Service website Unmanned Aircraft in the National Parks (U.S. National Park Service)

 

[AirShark]

Well that still leaves 73% of the land mass left. Although I don't think you can fly over all of it either. I think of it like cell phones. In the beginning most people didn't talk in public places out of politeness. As more started doing it it became a free for all. Phone conversations on busses and trains, in restaurants, movies. Some people will even tell you its their right.

 

[Dale D]

I was in Big bend nat park in Texas. It is a high desert of 800,000+ acres of rugged mountains as well just plain desert with unlivable cactus-filled dry land. There are busy areas where people populate for hiking and camping, and there are many roads some paved but mostly dirt off roads branching off into nothing into the desert.
I had my drone with me and found a remote parking area near the Rio Grand river with very few or sometimes no people at times and tried to sneak an opportunity to take some pictures from the birds-eye view. Nothing crazy, not out of sight just simply go up to pass the tree lines to see the river carving through the mountains. As I am setting a lady emerges from a trail and walks right up and said: "you better not take off with that thing or you will face a fine and lose your drone. She identified her self as an off duty park ranger from another state (Mississippi if I recall). We talked and asked what could be the harm? Her answer was, these things are so cheap and available to anyone that people buy it in the mall not knowing how to fly it and the drones end up in the tree, she used an example of a drone ending up in civil war era historic tree and they had to retrieve it. We talked again that this drone is not inexpensive, has lots of technology with cameras that avoid trees/people/collisions. She was impressed. She advised me that I can apply for a special permit - which only a few people get. Eventually departed and went on her way. I packed up my stuff.
It bothers me that I have this expensive flying camera that can take pictures, pictures that are so different than we take on the ground, pictures from above with dept. and we are restricted to use it to enjoy what nature offers to us.
Ok, off my soapbox.
I can not accept this reason... that some people did something bad and now none of us can legally use our drones in nat. parks.

This here... ladies and gentleman.... is the USA - Mexico border, and the mighty Rio grand river. These are not drone pictures.
Camera's date is incorrect/not set.

View attachment 94824

View attachment 94830

U.S.
Let me get into this brawl!!!

Every summer we make our way to Yellowstone, since our condo is only a 45 min. ride from the west gate. I have always wanted to fly here but it is strictly forbidden. I found this article that might explain their fears. The Grand Prismatic Spring is a specular formation of hot springs. Can you imagine trying to fish out a drone from this superheated, sensitive area filled with fragile bacteria that give the spring its color?

If I fly a drone, I try very hard to avoid heavily tourist populations that occur over sites such as this. There are plenty of non-park areas to fly out west and in Utah, I believe. Read this article. Dated 2014.

Dale
Miami


AUGUST 6, 2014 / 6:46 PM / 6 YEARS AGO
Drone crashes into famed hot spring at Yellowstone National Park

Laura Zuckerman


(Reuters) - A tourist seeking to take pictures of Yellowstone National Park crashed a camera-equipped drone into its largest hot spring, possibly damaging the prized geothermal feature, a park official said on Wednesday.
The incident follows the crash earlier this summer of a drone into a marina at Yellowstone Lake and a string of radio-controlled aircraft violations at Grand Teton National Park in Wyoming.
The National Park Service in June announced a ban on so-called unmanned aerial vehicles, but officials say premier national parks in the U.S. West are reporting a sharp rise in the number of drones buzzing bison and boaters.
It was not clear if the drone that crashed Grand Prismatic Spring on Saturday and sank into its depths would damage the geothermal feature, park spokesman Al Nash said, and officials were still trying to decide whether to remove it.
“What we have to determine is whether the presence of this radio-controlled recreational aircraft poses a threat to that unique resource,” Nash said of the Grand Prismatic, the third-largest hot spring in the world and a top attraction for the roughly 3 million visitors who flock to Yellowstone each year.

 

[Cybernaut]

A crashed drone could destroy Yellowstone’s Grand Prismatic Spring

• Because there are idiots among us. The ban was implemented shortly after this incident. Reason enough for me. I don't want drones in the National Parks unless they are being used for research, safety or search & rescue reasons in an official status. I'm a drone pilot. For years. I've been flying RC aircraft since I was a young kid. I'm 65 years old now and I'll fight, hard, to keep these noisy things out of the Parks. Prior to the ban, I was in Grand Teton NP enjoying lunch in a roadside pullout. A guy pulls into, drops his tailgate, sits on it and launched his drone. For the next 20 minutes I listened to the noise of that thing. I was praying hard he'd crash it right then and there. That was my first ever drone encounter in a NP and it cemented my belief forever.

If there were 100+ people in a national park flying drones simultaneously, it would indeed be annoying, even in a large park. A more reasonable compromise might be to allow a very limited number of total drone pilots to fly per day, perhaps 3 to 5, with a special permit that requires a pilot to hold a Part 107 license or some other method for determining the pilot's competence. That way, at least people who know what they are doing could capture some dramatic video.

I do understand the annoying part, especially if you are there for the tranquility.

 

[KarlS]

Sometimes not being adversarial pays off.

I took my drone to Turtle Cove in the John Day Fossil Beds National Monument in central Oregon. I knew you could not fly drones in national forests, but I wasn't sure about monuments, so I found a ranger and asked. She said no.

A few minutes later, she tracked me down and told me she was impressed that I asked because most people don't. As a reward, she then told me about a gravel road outside of the Monument that I could take to access an area where I could use my drone to take photos without violating any rules. I took photos and made this pano: Turtle Cove in the John Day River Basin in Central Oregon.

 

[BigAl07]

Sometimes not being adversarial pays off.

I took my drone to Turtle Cove in the John Day Fossil Beds National Monument in central Oregon. I knew you could not fly drones in national forests, but I wasn't sure about monuments, so I found a ranger and asked. She said no.

A few minutes later, she tracked me down and told me she was impressed that I asked because most people don't. As a reward, she then told me about a gravel road outside of the Monument that I could take to access an area where I could use my drone to take photos without violating any rules. I took photos and made this pano: Turtle Cove in the John Day River Basin in Central Oregon.

Very well done

 

[tesohn]

This is Virginia State Park rules not National Parks rules. While it is a similar and equally odd rule it is different.

Here in Utah drones are allowed in State Parks with the exception of Antelope Island which limits drones to a small window of the year.

To fly in the State Park you just need to pay a $5 fee and fill out an application for a permit but they are immediately and automatically granted as long as you provide the registration #. I find this to be an extremely reasonable process.

I wish that other State’s and NPS would adopt this procedure. I even think $5 is low. I’d be ok with $10-$20 at the state level and $50 at the National Park level.

Someone earlier mentioned that we need representation to fight for our interests and I totally agree. While organizations like the AMA have been doing what they thought was the right type of lobbying, it’s become obvious to me they have been too accommodating to the FAA and the FAA has taken advantage of the FAAs and DJIs willingness to co-operate with them. We need a special interest group like the NRA which takes a scorched earth approach. Love or hate the NRA no one can deny their effectiveness.

Nice idea but there are always those that can't and won't follow the rules, case in point Utah's Gooseneck State Park on the San Juan River. I was there in 2018 and was informed at the entrance that this "window" program (from Nov. to March) was no longer allowed due to these people who can't follow the rules. I was informed that I could go to the top of the hill (where the park boundary begins) that leads down into the park and fly my drone all I want and that the State Park could not regulate the skies.

 

[John Murray]

Here in Virginia, with beautiful parks and Skyline Drive as well, Drones are strictly prohibited. Here is the official Document:

https://www.dcr.virginia.gov/state-parks/document/rules-drones.pdf

 

[John Murray]

I vacation in Virginia every year. Do you know of any maps that show where DCR property is located?