Flying over busy street - Canada

[RPASJones]

Hey guys,

I have some questions about establishing a security perimeter for flying at a plaza. I can't get the right angle within the parking lot I cone off. I would like to take off in the parking lot of the plaza I want to shoot, then fly over a street to get to the other side for my pictures.

When flying over the street, If I am not closer than 16.4 feet to any other cars, do I still need to establish a security perimeter? (Ex, flagging, road permit) (Have second safety deceleration)

I get that I may need a permit to stop traffic. But it would be great If my spotter could just give me the go ahead to cross the street, take the necessary pictures, then fly back to my landing zone. I do not want to take off on the other side of the street as sometimes it is hard to contact the land owner for permission.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. The location is in Ontario, Canada.

Thank you

 

[Mrmund]

Probably fine if it's actually safe.
Me, in the US, my procedure is always:
Safe?
Will I bother other people?
Legal?
The rest is just logistics.
If I was doing this I would start with those three. Then make sure my paperwork was sorted. I wouldn't file a permit to cross the street, just make sure the I'm not flying over cars(my spotter tells me when it's clear). If I was concerned I'd make sure I had a written plan including emergency procedures to show the FAA if I ever had to talk to them.
Answer those three questions, be safe and don't mess it up because you represent all of us and how we behave is important, now more than ever.
Good luck

 

[Tbredhed]

This flight would depend on the type of license you have, with the basic it would not be allowed. I never took the advanced so I'm not sure if it would be legal or not.
Cheers

 

[Gazza_19]

I have the basic license and did a shot for a charity bike race. I set up across the street from the starting point and flew over the riders that were across the street. The police were there and didn't say anything to me.

 

[kingsnake11]

If you're going to potentially fly over bystanders...and that means people in cars too, then several things need to happen. First, in an urban setting you are likely in a controlled airspace so you need to know what airspace your site is located in. If it is indeed inside a controlled airspace, the type will determine if you need a navcanada approval or an sfoc from transport canada. You will need advanced certification as a pilot, and not knowing all the circumstances of your site and flight plan, you would also need an RPAS that is certified for advanced operations that includes certification for flying over bystanders. Very few normal RPAS's have that certification so again, without knowing your particular circumstances, it would likely be best to go the stop traffic and people route with observers, permits, cones and tape. I completed my full certification for advanced pilot about a month ago and one of the most challenging aspects of the flight review is understanding how to put together a site survey that meets all of the requirements of transport Canada, including the necessary documentation.

 

[RPASJones]

If you're going to potentially fly over bystanders...and that means people in cars too, then several things need to happen. First, in an urban setting you are likely in a controlled airspace so you need to know what airspace your site is located in. If it is indeed inside a controlled airspace, the type will determine if you need a navcanada approval or an sfoc from transport canada. You will need advanced certification as a pilot, and not knowing all the circumstances of your site and flight plan, you would also need an RPAS that is certified for advanced operations that includes certification for flying over bystanders. Very few normal RPAS's have that certification so again, without knowing your particular circumstances, it would likely be best to go the stop traffic and people route with observers, permits, cones and tape. I completed my full certification for advanced pilot about a month ago and one of the most challenging aspects of the flight review is understanding how to put together a site survey that meets all of the requirements of transport Canada, including the necessary documentation.

I am aware of the laws of not being able to fly over people without my safety deceleration and license. I have my advanced operations license, and this operation would not be in controlled airspace. I think I am going to go ahead and cross the street If my spotter gives me the go ahead. If the traffic is to heavy, I will have to come back with an additional crew member as well as signs for flagging. Thank you everyone for your advice, and I would love to discuss this more in depth.

 

[RPASJones]

I have the basic license and did a shot for a charity bike race. I set up across the street from the starting point and flew over the riders that were across the street. The police were there and didn't say anything to me.

I would not recommend doing this again... lol

 

[aric.taylor]

Take it with a grain of salt, but this link says people in cars DO NOT count as by-standers. Reference: TC RPAS Task Force.

--- The 100′ horizontal distance from people mentioned in CAR 901.26 means freestanding bodies. “People” does not refer to those in cars or buildings. Asking people to step inside while you fly is totally reasonable under the new regulations. ---

New Canadian Drone Regulations – People, Buildings, Vehicles

One of the biggest changes in the new Canadian drone regulations on Jan 9 2019 are around minimum distances allowed to people, buildings, and vehicles. Gone are the restrictions to buildings and v…

blog.flitelab.com

 

[RPASJones]

Take it with a grain of salt, but this link says people in cars DO NOT count as by-standers. Reference: TC RPAS Task Force.

--- The 100′ horizontal distance from people mentioned in CAR 901.26 means freestanding bodies. “People” does not refer to those in cars or buildings. Asking people to step inside while you fly is totally reasonable under the new regulations. ---

New Canadian Drone Regulations – People, Buildings, Vehicles

One of the biggest changes in the new Canadian drone regulations on Jan 9 2019 are around minimum distances allowed to people, buildings, and vehicles. Gone are the restrictions to buildings and v…

blog.flitelab.com

Very interesting. I would like to know how Transport Canada defines ``Bystanders``, as well.

 

[aric.taylor]

Very interesting. I would like to know how Transport Canada defines ``Bystanders``, as well.

I sent an email to a contact there. I will post when I get it.

 

[kingsnake11]

Take it with a grain of salt, but this link says people in cars DO NOT count as by-standers. Reference: TC RPAS Task Force.

--- The 100′ horizontal distance from people mentioned in CAR 901.26 means freestanding bodies. “People” does not refer to those in cars or buildings. Asking people to step inside while you fly is totally reasonable under the new regulations. ---

New Canadian Drone Regulations – People, Buildings, Vehicles

One of the biggest changes in the new Canadian drone regulations on Jan 9 2019 are around minimum distances allowed to people, buildings, and vehicles. Gone are the restrictions to buildings and v…

blog.flitelab.com

You are correct about people in buildings or other structures including automobiles, but what I was told when I did the advanced course, was that while somebody in a parked car was not considered a bystander, which they actually don't define as such in the CARS, but they do refer as anyone not engaged as part of the crew in the horizontal distance and overflight sections. Moving cars are another issue because of the potential of causing an accident if the RPAS had an incident. It is a grey area that is not well defined at all in the CARS, and while there is a lot of info in the task force document what you have to look at is what is actually in the CARS(Canadian Aviation Regulations). For instance, just imagine this scenario....you decide to fly over moving traffic...RPAS, given murphy's law, decides to lose link and comes into the path of a vehicle that then results in an MVA. Where would the liabilities be, especially if injuries or worse? I am not a lawyer, but I would imagine that it would be a nightmare for all involved. As unlikely as such a scenario might be, the chance if it happening isn't zero. I would avoid flying over moving vehicles if at all possible. All it takes is one person in the vehicle to make a complaint..... When you come across something that is a grey area, I think a bit of risk assessment needs to be thought out with a dollop of common sense In the case above, crossing the road with the help of spotters etc when the traffic allows makes sense.

 

[aric.taylor]

You are correct about people in buildings or other structures including automobiles, but what I was told when I did the advanced course, was that while somebody in a parked car was not considered a bystander, which they actually don't define as such in the CARS, but they do refer as anyone not engaged as part of the crew in the horizontal distance and overflight sections. Moving cars are another issue because of the potential of causing an accident if the RPAS had an incident. It is a grey area that is not well defined at all in the CARS, and while there is a lot of info in the task force document what you have to look at is what is actually in the CARS(Canadian Aviation Regulations). For instance, just imagine this scenario....you decide to fly over moving traffic...RPAS, given murphy's law, decides to lose link and comes into the path of a vehicle that then results in an MVA. Where would the liabilities be, especially if injuries or worse? I am not a lawyer, but I would imagine that it would be a nightmare for all involved. As unlikely as such a scenario might be, the chance if it happening isn't zero. I would avoid flying over moving vehicles if at all possible. All it takes is one person in the vehicle to make a complaint..... When you come across something that is a grey area, I think a bit of risk assessment needs to be thought out with a dollop of common sense In the case above, crossing the road with the help of spotters etc when the traffic allows makes sense.

I'm not saying do it, I'm saying it isn't against the regulations to do so (as stated earlier in the thread). All flights need to be properly planned and assessed for risk. There's always a risk of something bad happening - goes for drones or other parts of life.

Personally, busy city streets = no. Doing residential work for real estate = different story.

 

[ajkm]

I have the basic license and did a shot for a charity bike race. I set up across the street from the starting point and flew over the riders that were across the street. The police were there and didn't say anything to me.

This would be strictly illegal as it is directly contrary to CARs, and because you don't hold a certificate permitting such a flight.

Secondly, what drone were you using? It would have to have been one of those listed on the TC website page as certified for overflight - those are nearly all extremely expensive.

Thirdly, what insurance do you hold? This would not be covered by MAAC membership exemptions.

Please fly within the regulations or you make it much more difficult for the rest of the community.

 

[nevernamed]

people in cars or buildilngs don't count.. the new laws open up a lot of areas to fly, you just have to avoid actual people you can hit with the thing.

 

[Simmo]

people in cars or buildilngs don't count.. the new laws open up a lot of areas to fly, you just have to avoid actual people you can hit with the thing.

In Australia that is correct, if you can mitigate them coming out of the car or building....
Because, if they do, we are back to flying over people.. which cant be done with the RPA's that we can afford....