Flying over people

[marcorasi1960]

One of the key FAA rules says not to fly over crowds of people. What exactly does that mean? It's clear to me that it is not allowed to fly over an open-air stadium full of people, or a school yard full of children. But what about flying over a street where there may be a couple of pedestrians per block? I live in a city where there are many neighborhoods with low density of people outdoors. There are certain hours of the day in which there may be nobody outdoors, or just a few people (like for example one or two every hundred yards). Is it permitted to fly a couple of hundred yards over those neighborhoods in order to reach the river or the lake that borders the city?

 

[Mossiback]

I would do so at max height of 400 feet and moving. Do not stop and loiter over someone's property. It would be better to walk the couple hundred yards and launch there. If a failure were to happen you would not want it going down in a neighborhood.

 

[superstarpup]

They are intentionally vague about what constitutes a “group.” Their definition and enforcement will likely vary based on how you have operated.

 

[ZX14-R]

In Australia we have a rule called Populous area used when assessing if you should fly your Drone or not.

An area in relation to the operation of an unmanned aircraft that has a sufficient density of population for some aspect of the operation, or some event that might happen during the operation (in particular, a fault in, or failure of, the unmanned aircraft) to pose an unreasonable risk to the life, safety or property of somebody who is in the area, but is not connected with the operation.

I think that sums it up

 

[marcorasi1960]

Appreciate everyone's feedback. Sometimes I wish the rules were more clear-cut. I believe that flying over the neighborhoods I described poses far less danger to people than driving through them. But if one wants to eliminate all risk, one cannot really fly anywhere... Anyhow, your replies have been quite helpful to my understanding.

 

[BigAl07]

They are intentionally vague about what constitutes a “group.” Their definition and enforcement will likely vary based on how you have operated.

^^^^^^^^^ Nailed it!

The FAA has some "Grey Area" and it's not by mistake. They are known to give operators just enough rope to hang themselves.

If there is an incident and someone is struck by your sUAS you were not operating legally and the enforcement could be brutal. Of course all Law Enforcement has the "Reckless & Careless" to fall back on when needed.

 

[superstarpup]

Appreciate everyone's feedback. Sometimes I wish the rules were more clear-cut. I believe that flying over the neighborhoods I described poses far less danger to people than driving through them. But if one wants to eliminate all risk, one cannot really fly anywhere... Anyhow, your replies have been quite helpful to my understanding.

fly over two people walking a dog down a trail while you’re at 300’? No one will call that a “group.”

go ripping 10” over the heads of the same two people at 25 mph? I’d bet you’d hear that you flew over a group.

no one is saying risk must be eliminated, that’s not possible. The idea is to identify, assess, and mitigate risk.

 

[MAvic_South_Oz]

if one wants to eliminate all risk, one cannot really fly anywhere

Getting that way . . .

You also have to be aware of combinations of various authorities rules = no flight, and it's something that could creep up on drone hobbyists in years to come, if incidents start to occur more regularly.
Eg. FAA VLOS and a local city no fly rule in a park = you can't often can't just take off outside the area and fly over a park without risk of losing VLOS.

I know in the US it's very vague . . . "Don’t fly over people."
No distance noted at all.

'Over' people really has no bearing on the distance from people rule here in Australia, as we have a set distance from people, and it is laterally from a person or persons.
Makes 'above or over people' totally irrelevant in a spacial sense, CASA here show a cylinder diagram, but what's important is the 30m radius . . .

This alone almost makes flying impossible in many places, and I imagine many break this rule. Often.

I do like the idea of the FAA rule, and how "enforcement will likely vary based on how you have operated."
But think the FAA will probably introduce a similar black and white rule sometime in the near future, as "Don't fly over people" is just like saying don't go over the (road) speed limit too much.

You should hope it doesn't follow the UK rule for distance from people . . . this is 50m (164' radius).

 

[jmsayles]

The FAA has a video explaining this. The short answer is exactly what it says, do not fly over anyone not part of the operations team. Take the person's profile and extend it straight up. You cannot fly through that space. This would include if the person's arms were extended, you cannot fly over an arm. The operations team are those people under your direction as the pilot in charge that are involved with the control of the drone. The FAA goes so far to say if you lose control of the drone, it still cannot fly over people, so you should allow for a margin of error.

 

[GFields]

One of the key FAA rules says not to fly over crowds of people. What exactly does that mean? It's clear to me that it is not allowed to fly over an open-air stadium full of people, or a school yard full of children. But what about flying over a street where there may be a couple of pedestrians per block? I live in a city where there are many neighborhoods with low density of people outdoors. There are certain hours of the day in which there may be nobody outdoors, or just a few people (like for example one or two every hundred yards). Is it permitted to fly a couple of hundred yards over those neighborhoods in order to reach the river or the lake that borders the city?

Actually, the FAA rule (§ 107.39 Operation over human beings) states that you are not to fly over people (crowds or a single person).

"No person may operate a small unmanned aircraft over a human being unless that human being is:

(a) Directly participating in the operation of the small unmanned aircraft; or

(b) Located under a covered structure or inside a stationary vehicle that can provide reasonable protection from a falling small unmanned aircraft"

And note the word "stationary" in (b). I was inquiring about flying over traffic for a traffic analysis and was informed that a wavier would be needed (or fly to the side of the highway and not directly over traffic).

Flying over a house or houses in a neighborhood would be ok (unless you fly over people in their yards etc)

 

[BigAl07]

Let's all keep in mind that currently, there are slightly different wording from Part 107 and Hobby/Recreational.

I think it's imperative we state which set of rules we are looking for clarification on and not mix/match rules from one section into another. From the OP's original statement it sounds like they are merely asking about Hobby/Recreational rules "crowds of people " and not Part 107.

 

[crlmjohnson]

i always hear and see individuals try to separate the rules when it comes to hobby and recreational, but if a drone operator is in fault of a serious accident, I will almost guarantee you, the FAA is going to get a piece of that drone pilot.

 

[BigAl07]

i always hear and see individuals try to separate the rules when it comes to hobby and recreational, but if a drone operator is in fault of a serious accident, I will almost guarantee you, the FAA is going to get a piece of that drone pilot.

Of course. They always have the "reckless & careless" caveat to fall back on.

With that being said, if the Hobby rules read "Don't fly over groups of people" and you fly over a single person you're not, at least IMHO, flying over a group. That in no way makes it legal but an attorney is going to eat that one up.

 

[GFields]

Let's all keep in mind that currently, there are slightly different wording from Part 107 and Hobby/Recreational.

I think it's imperative we state which set of rules we are looking for clarification on and not mix/match rules from one section into another. From the OP's original statement it sounds like they are merely asking about Hobby/Recreational rules "crowds of people " and not Part 107.

I agree. After re-reading the question, the OP is referring to Hobbyist rule "Never fly over groups of people, public events, or stadiums full of people" And, I would still argue that the spirit of § 107.39 is seen here and would not fly over groups of people, not even one person. Some things come down to common sense and safety.

 

[superstarpup]

i always hear and see individuals try to separate the rules when it comes to hobby and recreational, but if a drone operator is in fault of a serious accident, I will almost guarantee you, the FAA is going to get a piece of that drone pilot.

You hear and see people separating the rules because they are completely separate groups of rules. You don’t operate under both sets of rules, it’s a one or the other sort of thing.

Sure, if you do something stupid you’ll likely hear from the feds, but that isn’t to say a recreational operation that wouldn’t comply with 107 is a dangerous or stupid operation.

 

[Harold Morgan]

The way I heard it mentioned in a YouTube video is that FAA is OK if you fly "incidentally" over a person or persons on the way to somewhere else.

 

[Deleted member 93449]

The AMA rules mention flying over large crowds of people and simply "unprotected people" ...

"All AMA pilots shall avoid flying sUAS directly over unprotected people, animals, vessels, vehicles, or structures so as not to endanger the life and property of others who are not directly involved in the sUAS activity."

It seems to me the AMA rules convey avoiding intentionally flying over people in general (even one person not involved in the operation) not just large crowds of people.

 

[BanditsRoost]

One of the key FAA rules says not to fly over crowds of people. What exactly does that mean? It's clear to me that it is not allowed to fly over an open-air stadium full of people, or a school yard full of children. But what about flying over a street where there may be a couple of pedestrians per block? I live in a city where there are many neighborhoods with low density of people outdoors. There are certain hours of the day in which there may be nobody outdoors, or just a few people (like for example one or two every hundred yards). Is it permitted to fly a couple of hundred yards over those neighborhoods in order to reach the river or the lake that borders the city?

Flying "a couple hundred yards" over anything is putting you about 260 feet over the 400 feet limit for Class G airspace regardless of who or what you are flying over. ;-)

 

[superstarpup]

Maybe he meant laterally.

 

[BanditsRoost]

Superstarpup, I kinda took this to mean above..."Is it permitted to fly a couple of hundred yards over those neighborhoods in order to reach the river or the lake that borders the city? "