Hello.........and Goodbye.

[Thorny]

Model airplanes existed long before that.

I think folks thought you were referring to "drones" as we think of them today. You're correct about model airplanes. I flew my first radio controlled airplane 60 years ago.

Jim

 

[Lastrexking]

I think some of the responses may be USA centric; the US rules can be inconvenient but generally there is still plenty of latitude. But perusing the UK rules, ( Current UK Drone Laws 2021 - Updated May 2021 ) wow! that's kind of awful. Just the list of required permissions is daunting; you have to call the police before every flight? Aren't they busy enough?

On the other hand, the list is less onerous for the <250g. Have you taken a hard look at the Mini 2? There's a lot to like. Soon, the Hubsan Zino Mini Pro will be out and that (theoretically) has even more to like. Good liuck!

Nope, we don’t have to inform the police before every flight (or any for that matter).

 

[Zbip57]

they are considering taking down footage they’ve had for years because new rules would make those illegal.

There's a lot of misinformation out there.

The rules keep changing. It's hard to keep up.

I started posting aerial videos on YouTube 8-1/2 years ago after getting my first Phantom. Four (or 5?) years later the rules in Canada suddenly changed overnight when a set of interim regulations were hastily slapped together. Every single one of the flights I had posted up to that day would have been considered illegal for one reason or another, if I had conducted them subsequent to the date of the new rules.

They can't go after you for stuff you posted before the rules took effect.

Suddenly we were no longer allowed to fly within 100' of any person, vehicle, vessel, structure, or animal! (Animal ?!? Huh??) How am I supposed to know how close the nearest squirrel is??

And, we were no longer allowed to fly within 5NM (9 km) of any "aerodrome". Our cottage was within 9km of the nearest float plane dock. But, our lake and the next lake with the seaplane dock was separated by a 1200' mountain.

Thankfully those rules were significantly refined in more recent versions. But, all of the many experiments I conducted with my Phantoms and posted on YouTube would now also be considered illegal under the new rules. Except for the few I did indoors, those tests were all done at low altitude within the confines of our local high school football field. Unfortunately that field is just within the controlled airspace of the Ottawa International Airport.

Even if I submitted to bending a knee and subjecting myself to taking the required tests for a Basic Certificate in order to be allowed to continue flying my Phantoms, that's still not enough. I'd first need the Advanced Certificate, plus authorization to fly within a controlled airspace, in order to be allowed to fly in that football field again now. It's ridiculous.

But I can happily fly my sub-250g Mavic Mini perfectly legally.

 

[Zbip57]

This is a mavic, drone forum.

I think folks thought you were referring to "drones" as we think of them today. You're correct about model airplanes. I flew my first radio controlled airplane 60 years ago.

Yes, but what people seem to be overlooking is that all these new draconian "drone" regulations now apply equally to your everyday "model airplanes" which have been flown for over 60 years.

Anything weighing more than 250 grams is subject to all these crazy regulations. And what's really strange is that in the EU, even otherwise harmless sub-250g aircraft still need to be registered if they so much as carry a camera! [That's true, isn't it?]

Clearly it's not the mass of the aircraft which presents the danger. The camera is the greatest danger. That's because anyone who flies a camera obviously must be either a peeping tom, pervert, or paedophile. Sheesh.

People have flown cameras on model airplanes for decades. But now that cameras can be flown on a "drone" [shiver], that's somehow suddenly a huge problem.

I can't tell you how often, when they find out I have a drone, people will ask me, "Do you use that to spy on your neighbour?" What's up with that?

I send them this YouTube link. I love this video. Here's a guy who mounts a camera on his model Piper Cub, just so he can share his joy of flight. He's not spying on anyone. Where/when/why has this simple fun disappeared?

 

[Zbip57]

Back to the questions of the original poster, thinking the Mavic Mini is insufficient for his photographic needs, here's another example to consider.

It's not the quality of the equipment used, it's the quality of how you use the equipment you have that matters.

Here's an innovative and clever use of a 360° spherical camera. Click and drag to rotate the video image.

 

[ericole]

As a photographer a drone is the best landscape/architecture camera you'll ever get, being able to put the camera in any point of the three-dimensional space just feels like cheating compared to any hand held camera.

And that ability overcomes absolutely everything else.

Air2S camera is far from any FF DSLR on the image quality side, but you'll never see me doing landscapes with tripods and DSLRs again... even though I tried a few weeks ago and was just... lol, no way I'm wasting these clouds with this limited bidimensional point of view, I'm doing it with the drone.

On the practical side of things, droning is just like drivng. You pass the tests, you pick up you drone, have all the paperwork done and try to be within the rules... for the most part, and that's all. Unlike driving, you'll never get anyone killed with a sub 900g drone, flying camera casualties worldwide are still 0.

There's plenty of room to play, drones are limited but not forbidden, just use your brain and decide by yourself if the risk is worth the cost, like Norwegian philosopher Kierkegaard said, a life based on following the rules is a life lacking in authenticity.

If we stick 100% to the drone regulation active in my country (a mix of the new EASA one and the old drone regulation from 2017)... Of the 800 flights that I've done till now... only 4 or 5 have been 100% legal, and in two of those 100% legal flights I had problems with some random people (Karens) just freaking out... while on the other 795 "90% legal" flights I didn't had any problem at all... so yep, legal doesn't mean safer or better, just be smart and adapt every to the situation.

Just buy a Mini 2 and learn to fly, this **** is quite addictive so I assure you in less than a year you'll be doing photos on a Mavic 3.

Based on his initial post, I think that's what he was lamenting - as a photographer that's what he wants to do. But for most of the places he wants to film he now can not do that, if he follows the rules.

 

[ericole]

Yes, but what people seem to be overlooking is that all these new draconian "drone" regulations now apply equally to your everyday "model airplanes" which have been flown for over 60 years.

Anything weighing more than 250 grams is subject to all these crazy regulations. And what's really strange is that in the EU, even otherwise harmless sub-250g aircraft still need to be registered if they so much as carry a camera! [That's true, isn't it?]

Clearly it's not the mass of the aircraft which presents the danger. The camera is the greatest danger. That's because anyone who flies a camera obviously must be either a peeping tom, pervert, or paedophile. Sheesh.

People have flown cameras on model airplanes for decades. But now that cameras can be flown on a "drone" [shiver], that's somehow suddenly a huge problem.

I can't tell you how often, when they find out I have a drone, people will ask me, "Do you use that to spy on your neighbour?" What's up with that?

I send them this YouTube link. I love this video. Here's a guy who mounts a camera on his model Piper Cub, just so he can share his joy of flight. He's not spying on anyone. Where/when/why has this simple fun disappeared?

That's true, I've been concerned about them applying to all things. But as others have pointed out on here it's much more difficult to just take off a normal RC plane anywhere and fly it. You MUST keep it within LOS to fly it correctly, and you need a runway - so most likely you'll be on a hobbyist field somewhere. It is all pretty frustrating though. I've just gotten into this in the last year and it seems at the same time new regs popping up limiting all kinds of things - here in the USA.

 

[ericole]

Drones will be able to fly everywhere in the future, even in cities and under controlled airspace (specially 250g ones)... but only after eID has been implemented and the sense of remote controlled impunity goes away.

But we are lots of years away from that to be true. 2023 to eID being fully implemented in the states, EU will just copy&paste... we are talking about 2030 easily.

Hopefully 250g drones will just be considered as any other hand held camera.

I doubt that....too much risk of them falling and injuring people or damaging property. But we'll see.

 

[Zbip57]

it's much more difficult to just take off a normal RC plane anywhere and fly it. You MUST keep it within LOS to fly it correctly, and you need a runway - so most likely you'll be on a hobbyist field somewhere.

There are all sorts of different types of "drones", ranging from crazy fast and powerful FPV racing drones to tiny nimble little FPV drones, from 3-rotor, 4-rotor, 6-rotor, 8-rotor, etc multirotor drones, from cheap little toy drones meant to be flown only indoors, to enormously powerful industrial drones.

Despite the huge diversity in capability, here in Canada they're all lumped into one of three categories -- sub-250gram, 250g-25kg, or bigger than 25kg. Even though most people know what it means, nobody has come up with any sort of enforceable definition of "drone". Instead we have Remotely Piloted Aircraft, which unfortunately includes traditional model aircraft.

However, just like it's an oversimplification to call all multirotor models "drones", it's also a huge oversimplification to say "normal RC planes" need a runway and can only be flown correctly via LOS.

There is just as large a diversity in model aircraft, ranging from hugely expensive and fast turbine powered planes that do require runways, down to superlight foamy planes that can be hand-launched anywhere. Yes, some of the typical scale model warbirds like to be flown where they can be appreciated by other scale builders at hobby fields. But float planes can be launched and landed at any cottage lake. Model helicopters don't require runways. And long-range fixed-wing models have been successfully flown for quite some time now over enormous distances using FPV goggles.

All of those many different types of "normal RC planes" are now equally shoe-horned into the exact same three categories of Remotely Piloted Aircraft, subject to the same regulations -- sub-250gram, 250g-25kg, or bigger than 25kg.

It's nuts.

 

[Zbip57]

Hopefully 250g drones will just be considered as any other hand held camera.

I doubt that....too much risk of them falling and injuring people or damaging property. But we'll see.

I encourage everybody to download and read the November 21, 2015 Final Report from the FAA's own Aviation Rulemaking Committee that initially gave birth to this 250 gram threshold for which registration eventually became mandatory worldwide.

The report can be downloaded from this link: www.hsdl.org/?view&did=788722

Based on a report that 80 Joules of kinetic energy has a 30% probability of being lethal when striking a person in the head, the committee calculated that a brick-shaped object, but with the coefficient of drag of a baseball, when dropped from 500ft, through sea-level density atmosphere, would achieve the velocity required to deliver 80 Joules of kinetic energy only if that object weighed 250 grams or more.

Conversely, that 250 gram object therefor has a 70% probability of not being lethal, no?

That's like the weather report announcing there's a 30% chance of rain, meaning there's actually a much greater 70% chance of no rain!

The committee went on to estimate the probability of such a lethal event occurring. They assumed a failure rate causing this average brick-sized drone weighing more than 250 grams to drop out of the air from 500ft altitude after every 100 hours of operation. Comparing the surface area of this drone to the surface area of the top of a human head, they assumed one of these drones would fall from 500ft after every 100 hours of use into a "densely packed urban area" of 10,000 people per sq.mile!

Granted, they estimated only 20% of that densely packed population would be exposed at any given moment, as most would be safely bunkered down inside their homes.

Further calculations estimated the likelihood of such a "catastrophic event" as;

"4.7x10-8, or less than 1 ground fatality for every 20,000,000 flight hours of an sUAS"

[ 20,000,000 hours = 2,283 years! ]

The committee report also pointed out that this risk of fatality by drone is about 1,000 times safer than general aviation, which has a risk level of 5x10-5.

I'm not making any of this up. It's all in the committee's Final Report. www.hsdl.org/?view&did=788722

All this is to say, the risk of fatality from a sub-250 gram drone, which typically has a much greater coefficient of drag than a baseball, and is typically never flown as high as 500ft, or over a "densely packed urban area", was calculated by this committee to be so utterly miniscule that no government could ever seriously justify increased regulations for this category based solely on risk of fatality.

I encourage everyone to download their own copy of this committee report for safekeeping in the event you ever have a need to prove just how ridiculous the 250 gram threshold actually is.

 

[7869hodgy]

I am surprised at what you say as I am also a photographer having a M2P and live in the same location as yourself albeit 3 miles away. I took a A2CofC also part of DroneSAR and the restrictions you mention have always been there I .e. nature reserve (lakes & gravel pits), power station, airport, army camps etc., it is common sense not to fly over the town (i.e. photos of rooftops) as if your drone fails it puts lives at risk. There are plenty of local fields you can take off from which gives you good proximity for cool shots as long as you have a decent lens. Also drones enable you to expand your creativity not just high altitude shots but those small angles and standpoints you can't quite achieve on foot. So maybe step back and think again... you may regret pulling out...

The Drone Assist app gives very clear indication of where is restricted and where is not. I always check before I about to head out and fly in a new area. I flew in Cornwall and Dorest last week and made sure I stayed away from people. The amino 2 is a go anywhere tool.

 

[maelstrom]

Gross violations aside, it is really practical, or even possible to stay "within all of the rules" 100 % of the time?

As I keep saying - YES! It may not always be easy, and it’s often inconvenient, but I aim to stay entirely within the rules when I fly.

 

[vindibona1]

As I keep saying - YES! It may not always be easy, and it’s often inconvenient, but I aim to stay entirely within the rules when I fly.

You "aim to"... or you do? Have you never flown beyond VLOS? If you fly without strobes that means you never fly more than approximately 120m away, right (500m with strobes... but that might take you over the weight limit, no?)?

 

[maelstrom]

You "aim to"... or you do?

Yes, I do. I don’t fly huge distances away for the very reason that I can’t see the drone. As I said in an earlier post, if my point of interest is a long way away, I simply take off closer to it. It may be inconvenient sometimes, but it’s far from being impossible as some people seem to think. I can only assume that those people who are questioning my ability to stay legal are probably those who think minor transgressions are ok as long as they’re not caught.

 

[RGallant]

Read through all this, glad on I am one the west coast of Canada and outside of Vancouver. Drone flying is pretty straight forward. To get some really great stuff I have drive, maybe 10 minutes maybe an hour or so, more if I want the ocean.

But the same applies to my handheld camera.

Perhaps it is a North American thing but 30 even 50 miles (50 to 80 KM) is pretty much nothing some people around here commute that 1 way everyday. To make that drive to get a stunning bit of photography is just a nice afternoon out.

There will always be more restrictions, all you can do is work within them or get organized an try a fight them.

 

[BigAl07]

I know, I’ve been flying. But no mention of those in the post. This is a mavic, drone forum.

LOL! You obviously don't realize that all UAS (R/C airplanes, R/C helicopters, and R/C MULTIROTORS) are now under the same single classification. This is a mavic forum but we are talking UAS Regulations which cover much more than "just" your Mavic. It's time to think bigger than yourself and just your interest in the mavic your flying. When we talk regulations they apply to ALL of us across the board. My statement about "flying these four decades ago is VERY accurate regardless of your narrow perspective on the industry.

That's true, I've been concerned about them applying to all things. But as others have pointed out on here it's much more difficult to just take off a normal RC plane anywhere and fly it. You MUST keep it within LOS to fly it correctly, and you need a runway - so most likely you'll be on a hobbyist field somewhere. ........

Again very narrow sighted I'm afraid. I've got airplanes (UAS) that are hand launched and can fly from my lawn chair and caught again sitting comfortably on my deck (can fly almost anywhere). Micro/Mini Planes and Helicopters are now VERY common and insanely easy to fly from just about anywhere.

I've got FPV equipment on 3 of my airplanes and one of my helicopters. If I so desired, I could fly FPV (just like your mavic) well beyond VLOS.

 

[PeteTheJack]

@BigAl07 with all respect, you claimed my original post is "90% overly dramatic"

Exactly how? I thought I was merely stating the current rules. I would argue that sentence is overly dramatic in regards to my post.


Rather than condescendingly making this about me personally maybe you could explain how it is possible to legally fly a drone now in the UK anywhere other than remote places? If there is some loophole or unspoken "common sense" rule I don't know about please enlighten me. I see you are from the USA so with all respect it seems that one thing people could do a little more if here is understand that every person has their own limitations based on geography and laws. Having someone from another country with different rules and regulations tell you you are being dramatic is a little condescending with respect.

With a DJI Mini 2 you can fly almost anywhere.

Here is an extract from the CAA drone registration site.

It is where you can fly a sub 250gm drone in the UK. You need an operator and flyer registration.

Residential areas include:

• cities and towns
• villages
• housing estates
• schools

Recreational areas include:

• tourist attractions
• sports facilities
• beaches and parks
• theme parks

Commercial areas include:

• shopping centres
• warehouses
• business parks

Industrial areas include:

• factories
• docks
• rail and transport hubs

More at Where you can fly drones | UK Civil Aviation Authority

Seems we can fly almost anywhere unless it is a specified no fly area. Have a look at No Fly Drones

 

[Crash and Burn]

We live in today's world, not yesterday's. One can always come up with reasons not to do things (too hot, to crowded, too far, too risky). My biggest regrets in life are not so much the things I did, but the things I didn't do. Your kids might enjoy some drives to a quiet setting to fly a drone, and I would bet the thing they would enjoy the most is being with you. Show them how to enjoy the world they are growing up in and will inherit. The glass is also half full

Absolutely.

The ways things are going we all need to embrace what joy is available in the here and now.

And if someone does make a decision that's it's in the the too hard basket, better to own that decision and acknowledge it wasn't worth the effort. There is no shame in deciding a hobby isn't for you.

 

[thispilothere]

Bro, in a few more years, batteries will be lighter, electronics will be smaller and cameras will be more powerful. Soon, you'll be able to make a drone from a few basic parts, some online firmware and a 3d printer that's so small it'll never be noticed. The FAA can require ID beacons and real-time tracking but people will find a way around it.

The FAA is actually kinda fair. The problem is the state and local bureaucrats who think they can pass insanely restrictive laws and police departments who are all too quick to enforce them. I might start making something like those 1st Amendment audit videos but for drones.

 

[seilerbird]

@The Fat Controller thank you, I will do. Have not heard of them.

I really would like to participate but the rub is that I run my own business and have two small kids. Travelling great distances just to use my drone isn't really optional. I don't have the time. The truth is that the rules have eliminated so many potential experiences for me on my doorstep. Realistically how many places are there within reasonable travelling distance that are beyond 50m (soon to be 150m) of anyone and not recreational areas?
Woodland....no
Beach.....no
Parks and playing fields......no

Look, it's easy to have a certain perspective like most here who already have the equipment and the years behind them flying. I am asking from the perspective of a new hobbyist who is trying to decide whether to spend a grand and a half for these restrictions. It's not as easy to have such a shiny outlook on the situation.

I am new here and I am starting out with a $99 drone to see how it goes. If it is all gloom and doom then I will forget about it and laugh off the $99. If I fall in love with the hobby I will get an expensive one. I have no idea how restrictive this hobby is but I live in an RV park on a small lake. I doubt there are restrictions here.