How to balance privacy and access ?

[RoboticTundra]

Along with a small group of others I advise people on building sauna's. For those not familiar, sauna is done nude everywhere except in the U.S. (and increasingly in the U.S.). Sauna involves multiple rounds of a bit of time in the sauna followed by time outside cooling down (ideally with a swim in a lake but a cool shower or just being outside in cool/cold weather works) and then this is repeated 3 or more times. So, people often create private patios/showers outside their sauna using fences and shrubs for privacy.

Increasingly people are complaining about drones spying on them and some of these have apparently been shared or posted.

How can this be balanced? How can drone pilots maintain the freedoms we currently have and still insure people appropriate privacy?

 

[vindibona1]

First, how do they know drones are spying on them? If a drone is hovering close by, pointed at them I can see why they'd be bothered, so that needs to be verified so we can all stand up and object to the perp. But second, if it is so "traditional" to bathe outdoors nude in front of other people, some presumably strangers, why the hyped concern about privacy? What are they trying to hide that they're willing to share in public? Seems like balance swings both ways.

 

[RoboticTundra]

"What are they trying to hide that they're willing to share in public? Seems like balance swings both ways."

This varies a lot by individual but I think for most people there's a huge difference in being nude around your spouse or family or close friends vs doing so around a lot of others and this is all very much different from having photos of you taken or shared.

 

[thispilothere]

What do you think needs to be covered? It's already illegal to take nude pics of neighbors and post them online.

It really doesn't matter what anyone tries, the technology will get advanced enough to overcome it. In a few years, drones will be small enough not to be noticed, have cameras powerful enough to take quality telephoto images and have enough battery life to fly away to a remote location to avoid detection. The "solution" will quickly become a complete ban. Even then, drones aren't difficult to build from a few components and a basic 3d printer.

If they insist on complete privacy, tell your clients to either build an enclosure or don't go around naked in their yard.

 

[eEridani]

Being naked in the back yard is problematic - "if you are a girl, then it is okay attitudes" often paint the nude person as a deviant. Who wants a deviant in their neighborhood?

Trees, trees, and more trees. Besides a better habitat for nudists, it is also good for nature. And have one of those drone-net guns handy; just in case.

 

[RoboticTundra]

"If they insist on complete privacy, tell your clients to either build an enclosure or don't go around naked in their yard."

For pretty much all of history humans have largely been limited to connection to the ground. So someone wanting privacy on their land need only build a fence or hedgerow high enough to block the view of people standing on the ground or perhaps in a 2nd story window.

Planes and helicopters changed things a bit but they are expensive which creates a natural barrier to there being very many of them.

So, prior to inexpensive drones, privacy in your own yard in a typical residential neighborhood or rural area has been fairly easy to come by.

Drones, at least in the current environment, make that privacy somewhere between difficult and impossible. They are placing eyes and cameras in places that up until now, throughout all of human history, has been largely impossible.

And this is well beyond just someone between sauna rounds. It's a teen girl wanting to lay in the sun or any number of things.

Why should people who've had a right, and a legally recognized right in many areas, throughout history have to give that up or spend extreme sums of money in order for us to be able to fly our drones?

If we / the drone industry don't address this then what is the probability that it will be addressed by legal means that is far more draconian than necessary - namely a ban.

 

[eEridani]

I have friends who went swimming in their pool naked all the time. A neighbors deck looked down into their back yard. They dealt with it by simply going swimming whenever they pleased. Police were called, the result was a person has a right to privacy in their back yard, the neighbors deck violated that privacy, and neighbor was asked to remove the deck or stop gawking. Neighbor kept the deck and kept gawking. But at least he (or his wife) no longer called the police.

This was Oregon, some time ago.

 

[DoomMeister]

Put a roof over the shower so drones or nosy neighbors in 2+ story houses do not have a visual path. Other than that shower inside. Planes and helicopters fly over all the time. Many people have security cameras on their homes that monitor the property around them. Maybe those should be banned also.

 

[thispilothere]

Neighbor kept the deck and kept gawking. But at least he (or his wife) no longer called the police.

So, after police got involved and tried to get him to remove the deck, he was able to keep it? Was it ever brought to court?

 

[SethB]

There are many laws in many jurisdictions regarding areas in which one may have “a reasonable expectation of privacy.”

Advice to sauna owners who see drones: Call the police.

My feeling is that (at least in Oregon) this spying / peeping is already illegal. Ask for enforcement.

***edit for clarification***
Advice… …who see drones hovering near their backyard.

 

[eEridani]

So, after police got involved and tried to get him to remove the deck, he was able to keep it? Was it ever brought to court?

They never took it to court, they were a bit on the exhibitionistic side and rather enjoyed the audience when they had pool parties.

 

[thispilothere]

They never took it to court, they were a bit on the exhibitionistic side and rather enjoyed the audience when they had pool parties.

They wouldn't have won anyway. Sounds like the nude neighbor, and local police, tried to strong-arm them into removing the deck. When that didn't work, they dropped it. Never trust police when they say you're violating a law as vague as privacy. Usually it's a bully tactic and they're hoping you're too intimidated to challenge it.

Building an enclosure makes it internal space in your house - where there is an expectation of privacy.

 

[vindibona1]

"What are they trying to hide that they're willing to share in public? Seems like balance swings both ways."

This varies a lot by individual but I think for most people there's a huge difference in being nude around your spouse or family or close friends vs doing so around a lot of others and this is all very much different from having photos of you taken or shared.

It is a long standing precedent that what happens in public is public domain. If they are in a private "fenced in"(?) area, the questions become: 1) How close is the drone to their location? 2) Is the drone focused on them specifically or "in transit"? We hear stories of weddings executed on large private properties and images taken from helicopters of the events with few if any legal repercussions. There must be something in the law that, while not "allowing" it per se, doesn't prohibit it either. Helicopter or drone, it doesn't matter. Does being nude change anything?

I get the idea that it "feels" intrusive and from a personal flying perspective I always try to respect that and always try to stay away from people, especially in private settings. But again, needs to be balance and reason so that nobody is encroaching on anyone else's freedoms.

 

[eEridani]

There is precedent for observing being legal or illegal. One case that comes to mind is a guy who walked about his house after showering nude - this is INSIDE his house. He always left his curtains open. A neighbor complained, said her daughter had seen him naked, the DA prosecuted. In court, the defendant's attorney was sharp and caught a weird phrase from the daughter on the stand, and asked her how powerful were her binoculars. She answered. Case dismissed.

 

[Crouching Leopard]

Along with a small group of others I advise people on building sauna's. For those not familiar, sauna is done nude everywhere except in the U.S. (and increasingly in the U.S.). Sauna involves multiple rounds of a bit of time in the sauna followed by time outside cooling down (ideally with a swim in a lake but a cool shower or just being outside in cool/cold weather works) and then this is repeated 3 or more times. So, people often create private patios/showers outside their sauna using fences and shrubs for privacy.

Increasingly people are complaining about drones spying on them and some of these have apparently been shared or posted.

How can this be balanced? How can drone pilots maintain the freedoms we currently have and still insure people appropriate privacy?

I have a drone, and a Sauna on my deck where I always go "Swedish". A few months ago I had a police helicopter flyover late at night looking for partiers breaking the Melbourne pandemic curfew, just as I stepped out for a cool down. Had my deck lights on so possibly thought a party was taking place. A couple of minutes he came back and flew very low and slow right over the top of the house. Now, I am not the "demonstrative" type, but I thought "stuff you, it's my back yard, midnight, and I didn't ask you to fly over" so stood my (naked) ground. He probably had a giggle and I relished in the feeling of fighting back against authoritarianism. ?

I have a very secluded garden (lots of boundary trees and shrubs) in a normal neighborhood setting. If I spotted a drone during the day I would try to find out the owner, then report them. However, without trees, it's really no different to having a pervy neighbour with a camera. Again, trees, trees and more trees.

I always sauna late at night to avoid "publicity"
I don't fly over people in pools, low over houses, or from my home

Never had a problem

 

[Crouching Leopard]

They never took it to court, they were a bit on the exhibitionistic side and rather enjoyed the audience when they had pool parties.

I have a drone, and a Sauna on my deck where I always go "Swedish". A few months ago I had a police helicopter flyover late at night looking for partiers breaking the Melbourne pandemic curfew, just as I stepped out for a cool down. Had my deck lights on so possibly thought a party was taking place. A couple of minutes he came back and flew very low and slow right over the top of the house. Now, I am not the "demonstrative" type, but I thought "stuff you, it's my back yard, midnight, and I didn't ask you to fly over" so stood my (naked) ground. He probably had a giggle and I relished in the feeling of fighting back against authoritarianism.

I have a very secluded garden (lots of boundary trees and shrubs) in a normal neighborhood garden. If I spotted a drone during the day I would try to find out the owner, then report them. However, without trees, it's really no different from having a pervy neighbor with a camera. Again, trees, trees, and more trees.

I always sauna late at night to avoid "publicity"
I don't fly over people in pools, low over houses, or from my home

Never had a problem

 

[Kilrah]

If we / the drone industry don't address this then what is the probability that it will be addressed by legal means that is far more draconian than necessary - namely a ban.

There won't be a ban because a ban would do nothing.
You can ban anything all you want, anyone who wants it will always be able to do it. How many banned things are done every day?

 

[RoboticTundra]

Thanks for the responses and my apologies for taking so long to respond. We're dealing with some things that have been eating up our lives recently. Some thoughts...

First is that drones have created a new problem regarding privacy. Prior to drones (and so realistically prior to about 2019 when they began to become more ubiquitous) someone who wanted relative privacy in their yard need only block ground level sightlines. In many cases a 6' high fence or hedge was sufficient. If a neighbor had a taller house then a somewhat taller fence, hedge or wall might be needed though in many cases only a single window or two might need to be accounted for.

Invasion of privacy from planes and helicopters has generally not been considered much of an issue. They are expensive to buy and expensive for each hour of operation, there are few of them, they are often quite far away and they are large and loud enough to easily be seen and heard as they approach. Using one to snoop on a neighbor would be prohibitively expensive for most people. For most people the one time every 10 years that a helicopter might be near enough to pose a threat to privacy is not a huge issue.

Drones present a much different problem for people. There are many more of them, they are easily affordable by the perverts down the street or across the lake and they are small and quiet so there's little warning of their approach. For many average people they are viewed as a new and realistic threat.

 

[RoboticTundra]

Put a roof over the shower so drones or nosy neighbors in 2+ story houses do not have a visual path. Other than that shower inside. Planes and helicopters fly over all the time. Many people have security cameras on their homes that monitor the property around them. Maybe those should be banned also.

This is problematic on a few levels.

• Cost. Should a homeowner bear this cost, which could be considerable, because a neighbor has a new hobby? Keep in mind that this is a totally new thing that's not existed before.
• In many cases it would require more than a roof as you would need walls as well. At some point you are no longer outside.
• What about the teen who wants to sunbath? That can be tough w/ a roof.

 

[DoomMeister]

This is problematic on a few levels.

• Cost. Should a homeowner bear this cost, which could be considerable, because a neighbor has a new hobby? Keep in mind that this is a totally new thing that's not existed before.
• In many cases it would require more than a roof as you would need walls as well. At some point you are no longer outside.
• What about the teen who wants to sunbath? That can be tough w/ a roof.

And what about the neighbors with a two story house? If you really want privacy take it indoors. A drone should not be treated any differently than a cell phone or handheld camera. I would personally not subject my neighbors to seeing me bath in my backyard. Some things just can’t be unseen.