M2P - High contrast & shadows - grainy ?

[RoboticTundra]

I've been trying to decide whether to keep my M2P or not and tomorrow is my last day to return. The only time I've been able to fly in a sunny high contrast situation was the first flight and only captured JPG's. Since then we've been cloudy (and drizzle and cold and generally kind of yucky).

It seems I've read that people have had some difficulty pulling shadows up in LR, PS, Affinity, etc and that they're seeing more grain in the shadows when they try vs the MPP. Or at least no noticeable improvement. And yet the dynamic range is supposed to be much better in the M2P. Can anyone confirm for me.

BTW, grainy shadows is also a known issue w/ the Nikon Z7 vs the D850 so I may be confusing the two but was pretty sure I'd read similar about M2P.

Thanks,

 

[Mossiback]

You do not have to fly to take a picture so just take pictures indoors. That way you can set up controlled lighting situations and even compare with other cameras you own. You can also take off the props, fold the arms, and use it as a gimbal stabilized hand held camera.

 

[jwischka]

I've been trying to decide whether to keep my M2P or not and tomorrow is my last day to return. The only time I've been able to fly in a sunny high contrast situation was the first flight and only captured JPG's. Since then we've been cloudy (and drizzle and cold and generally kind of yucky).

It seems I've read that people have had some difficulty pulling shadows up in LR, PS, Affinity, etc and that they're seeing more grain in the shadows when they try vs the MPP. Or at least no noticeable improvement. And yet the dynamic range is supposed to be much better in the M2P. Can anyone confirm for me.

BTW, grainy shadows is also a known issue w/ the Nikon Z7 vs the D850 so I may be confusing the two but was pretty sure I'd read similar about M2P.

Thanks,

Feel free to play around with this DNG, which should give you a fairly good idea of what you can get if you’re properly exposing to the right on a wide dynamic range scene.

Also, FWIW the issue between the Z7 and D850 is completely different than what we’re dealing with here. The Z7 has minor banding related to its on-sensor PDAF sites (which the D850 doesn’t have, since its AF system is not on-sensor). Ultimately, the difference between those two cameras is going to be pretty minor - probably less than the difference between the D850 and the A7Rm3. The difference between the MPP and M2P should be far more pronounced based on sensor size alone.

 

[CanadaDrone]

I've been trying to decide whether to keep my M2P or not and tomorrow is my last day to return. The only time I've been able to fly in a sunny high contrast situation was the first flight and only captured JPG's. Since then we've been cloudy (and drizzle and cold and generally kind of yucky).

It seems I've read that people have had some difficulty pulling shadows up in LR, PS, Affinity, etc and that they're seeing more grain in the shadows when they try vs the MPP. Or at least no noticeable improvement. And yet the dynamic range is supposed to be much better in the M2P. Can anyone confirm for me.

BTW, grainy shadows is also a known issue w/ the Nikon Z7 vs the D850 so I may be confusing the two but was pretty sure I'd read similar about M2P.

Thanks,

Grainy shadows is not a known issue with the Z7 or D850. Both those cameras have insane dynamic range, pretty much industry-best. If you are getting grainy shadows, something else is definitely the culprit.

As someone who has shot thousands of images with the D850 professionally and have poured over every imaginable piece of objective sensor data before making my purchase, I can assure you the D850 does not have grainy shadows unless you force them with grossly improper camera settings or a completely ridiculous shadow push in post processing (like more than +6 EV).

You will be able to coax out a little bit of banding on a Z7 with a ridiculous shadow push because it has an on-sensor PDAF array, that is the same with any other similar camera like an A7R III. You would only ever see this though if you set up a completely unrealistic scenario specifically to product the effect.

The dynamic range of the 1" Sony sensor in the M2P is not that good - it's just a lot better than the absolutely horrible 1/2.3" sensors. You are not getting anywhere near D850 level DR with it - see this chart for a visual representation comparing all 3 sensors in question:

Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting

 

[jwischka]

Grainy shadows is not a known issue with the Z7 or D850. Both those cameras have insane dynamic range, pretty much industry-best. If you are getting grainy shadows, something else is definitely the culprit.

As someone who has shot thousands of images with the D850 professionally and have poured over every imaginable piece of objective sensor data before making my purchase, I can assure you the D850 does not have grainy shadows unless you force them with grossly improper camera settings or a completely ridiculous shadow push in post processing (like more than +6 EV).

You will be able to coax out a little bit of banding on a Z7 with a ridiculous shadow push because it has an on-sensor PDAF array, that is the same with any other similar camera like an A7R III. You would only ever see this though if you set up a completely unrealistic scenario specifically to product the effect.

The dynamic range of the 1" Sony sensor in the M2P is not that good - it's just a lot better than the absolutely horrible 1/2.3" sensors. You are not getting anywhere near D850 level DR with it - see this chart for a visual representation comparing all 3 sensors in question:

Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting

I think what he was trying to say (though, admittedly, I read it the way you did too, at first) is that the Z7 doesn’t have the same dynamic range performance as the D850 - which as we’ve both pointed out isn’t really the same thing. But yes, you have to work very, very hard to get noisy shadows on the D850 (and, though I’ve not shot with one, I suspect on the Z7 as well). It’s stunning how well it performs.

 

[Paul2660]

Everything I have read about the Z7 (off topic) is that the images are identical tot he D850, same sensor basically, just that the Z7 have the PDAF. This is from looking at the rams on Dpreview and Imagaing Resource.

As for the Mp2 and noise, yes even at ISO 100 the files can get noisy in shadows, and thus you need to consider AEB, 5 shot since DJI has limited you to only .07 of a stop per exposure. The -1.34 to +1.34 helps a lot.

Jpgs IMO will not have much room for any recovery, as everything is dialed in. But the raw files are mailable.

I never found the P4Pro 20 MP camera to have that much range, albeit, after comparing images from MP2 and P4P4o, I might see .5 of a stop of improvement, Really not enough to matter, as you can account for that in the AEB stack.

Net, you aren’t going to get 1 shot in mixed light that has everything, you need to bracket. If you are shooting in an totally even lighting situation, the camera will do a good job.

Not sure what folks are expecting, as the 1” sensor in the MP2 pretty much has to be the same that’s in the P4Pro and that 1” sensor has been around for at least 3 years now which is a long time in Digital.

Camera can do a good job, but you need to work with it a bit, which is no different that the P4 Pro at least for me.

The lens on the MP2 is my biggest disappointment as neither of the 2 MP2 drones I have used, have the lens centered. One is off on the right, the other on the left. Not much but enough to show on a image viewed at 100% and printed. I am finding that the key to the MP2 and image detail being the same across the frame is knowing the camera and using the AF on the weak side and keeping your aperture in the F4.0 to F5.6 range.

Still much smaller and lighter and much quieter than my P4 Pro so I am keeping it. I will assume as the year passes, DJI will continue to improve on the MP2, in QA and later versions will probably have EC’s and the like to improve the image quality.

Paul C

 

[noosaguy]

Grainy shadows is not a known issue with the Z7 or D850. Both those cameras have insane dynamic range, pretty much industry-best. If you are getting grainy shadows, something else is definitely the culprit.

As someone who has shot thousands of images with the D850 professionally and have poured over every imaginable piece of objective sensor data before making my purchase, I can assure you the D850 does not have grainy shadows unless you force them with grossly improper camera settings or a completely ridiculous shadow push in post processing (like more than +6 EV).

You will be able to coax out a little bit of banding on a Z7 with a ridiculous shadow push because it has an on-sensor PDAF array, that is the same with any other similar camera like an A7R III. You would only ever see this though if you set up a completely unrealistic scenario specifically to product the effect.

The dynamic range of the 1" Sony sensor in the M2P is not that good - it's just a lot better than the absolutely horrible 1/2.3" sensors. You are not getting anywhere near D850 level DR with it - see this chart for a visual representation comparing all 3 sensors in question:

Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting

Anyone that expects the same performance out of a Sony 1" sensor as the Sony full frame sensor in the D850 should get a checkup from the neckup.

 

[Roamer105]

I've been trying to decide whether to keep my M2P or not and tomorrow is my last day to return. The only time I've been able to fly in a sunny high contrast situation was the first flight and only captured JPG's. Since then we've been cloudy (and drizzle and cold and generally kind of yucky).

It seems I've read that people have had some difficulty pulling shadows up in LR, PS, Affinity, etc and that they're seeing more grain in the shadows when they try vs the MPP. Or at least no noticeable improvement. And yet the dynamic range is supposed to be much better in the M2P. Can anyone confirm for me.

BTW, grainy shadows is also a known issue w/ the Nikon Z7 vs the D850 so I may be confusing the two but was pretty sure I'd read similar about M2P.

Thanks,

If after all this time you don’t know... send it back and get on with life.

 

[Lon Denard]

If after all this time you don’t know... send it back and get on with life.

Right? I mean it's not like you'll be banned from buying it again later.

 

[RoboticTundra]

Thanks all. @Mossiback, thanks for the idea. I really should have thought about that! Feeling dumb.

@jwischka, great shot and thanks for the file to play with.

@CanadaDrone, I largely agree w/ you about the D850. I shoot with one (fashion & portrait) almost daily. My comment was that the Z7 has grain problems (PDAF banding as noted above) that the D850 does not. I've only shot a tiny bit with a Z7 so no idea how much of a problem it will be. There are often issues found in pixel peeping that are non-issues in real world use (and likewise technically inferior bits (645D) that perform better in real world use).

 

[CanadaDrone]

I think what he was trying to say (though, admittedly, I read it the way you did too, at first) is that the Z7 doesn’t have the same dynamic range performance as the D850 - which as we’ve both pointed out isn’t really the same thing. But yes, you have to work very, very hard to get noisy shadows on the D850 (and, though I’ve not shot with one, I suspect on the Z7 as well). It’s stunning how well it performs.

Actually if you refer to the chart I posted, the Z7 and D850 have identical DR - any overlap in the data is within the margins of measurement error. Here it is again without the RX100:

Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting

The chart also does a nice job of illustrating the proprietary dual-gain technology that Sony uses, acquired from a patent share with Aptina (the 'knee' at ISO 400).

If you do a completely unrealistic push on a Z7 file that you would never have to do in any normal situation, you will start to see a little bit of banding due to the OSPDAF - same thing happens with Sony bodies. There can also be some pretty nasty green-line flare if you hit it just right with a bright light source, but you pretty much have to set up a situation specifically to create it. It looks like this - look at the female model's hair:

https://2.img-dpreview.com/files/p/sample_galleries/6769434587/5296972217.jpg

 

[CanadaDrone]

Anyone that expects the same performance out of a Sony 1" sensor as the Sony full frame sensor in the D850 should get a checkup from the neckup.

True, but I think it is an area that confuses a lot of people. Megapixels, crop factors, etc. - there is a lot to keep straight especially when manufacturers advertise everything in 35mm equivalency terms.

 

[BlueBay]

Most of us remove the noise in post-production.

I found these profiles useful from The Film Poets.

Mavic 2 Pro Lowlight Noise Reduction Profiles - Film Poets Education