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Mavic 2 (Pro) RTH-triggered Vortex Ring State, Gyro issue or GPS confusion?

iamdorian

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On my second Mavic 2 Pro now. Before I mention what I think was a VRS wobble today using RTH, I wanted to mention a fatal series of errors that cost me my first Mavic 2.

Christmas Eve I tried to fly a Litchi mission that would have taken the Mavic 2 Pro under a fairly low bridge over a slough/channel here in Portland (for locals this was the SAvie Island Bridge). I lost sight of the MAvic 2 against the grey trees as it was passing under the bridge deck. It aaprently slammed into teh bridge deck, broke of a blade (or two) and the last thing I saw was its gyrating arms as some weak afternoon sun glinted off the aircrafts and the mind-numbing splash as 1300.00 worth of aircraft hit hard in 20 feet of muddy, slow moving water under the bridge. Although I was flying a Litch mission I am pretty sure this was NOT Litchi's fault. My best guess is that I combined several mistakes to cause this crash. 1) accidentally assigned my C2 switch to FVP mode and 2) had previously enabled 30º up camera and then, 3) accidentally — when I lost sigh of the drone — decided to look UP with the camera to see how far under the bridge I was, and how far down (close to the water) I was (in the accidentally triggered FVP mode), I flew it UP into the bridge deck! Stupid, stupid set of mistakes.

However, like the Arlo Guthry song Alice's Restaurant says: "...but that's not what I am here to talk to you about!"

With my second Mavic 2, and a lot more caution, I have been shooting a few Hyperlapses. On the way back from shooting a Hyperlapse I experiences a RTH landing snafu. Not sure what I was seeing. I know what a VRS (Vortex Ring State) is. I do not think this is what happened. It was a cool sunset (about 40º F at the time). I hit RTH from about 300-400 meters out at about the RTH height I was sat (200 feet or so). It made it overhead, and began descending. At perhaps 15-20 meters the craft started gyrating around what should have been the descent vector (Y-axis), kind of like a top. I watched for a few seconds in a mixed state of confusion and fear, then I did what I would have done if I'd known I was experiencing a Vortex Ring State issue: rapidly switched to ATTI mode and flew a little bit away from the center of the descent spiral. This worked, and then I brought it back and landed manually.

Does anyone want to hazard a guess HOW this happened and if there is a way to avoid this? I could have been really bad if I had been descending between some trees or into a goths space between houses or something.

I know VRS is supposed to cause a rapid descent, and I know that this can be accompanied by wobbling, but this was more like a gyro issue, as I I had a heave weight suspended below the centerline of the bird and the gyro was trying to compensate and suddenly got locked into some sort of CoG feedback oscillation.

Anyone have any ideas? Thanks!
 
Does anyone want to hazard a guess HOW this happened and if there is a way to avoid this? I could have been really bad if I had been descending between some trees or into a goths space between houses or something.
All we have to go on is your description so don't expect any accurate analysis unless you post flight data.
VRS isn't something you hear of with DJI drones ever since the P3 series came out in 2015.
DJI worked out how to prevent VRS with some clever design features and limited descent speed.
I'd be extremely surprised if whatever it was was really VRS.

There's no need to let RTH bring your drone back and land for you.
You can always cancel the RTH and resume control to land where you choose to.
It's always a good idea to consider how the landing will be when you choose a launch spot and avoid tight spots.
 
On my second Mavic 2 Pro now. Before I mention what I think was a VRS wobble today using RTH, I wanted to mention a fatal series of errors that cost me my first Mavic 2.

Christmas Eve I tried to fly a Litchi mission that would have taken the Mavic 2 Pro under a fairly low bridge over a slough/channel here in Portland (for locals this was the SAvie Island Bridge). I lost sight of the MAvic 2 against the grey trees as it was passing under the bridge deck. It aaprently slammed into teh bridge deck, broke of a blade (or two) and the last thing I saw was its gyrating arms as some weak afternoon sun glinted off the aircrafts and the mind-numbing splash as 1300.00 worth of aircraft hit hard in 20 feet of muddy, slow moving water under the bridge. Although I was flying a Litch mission I am pretty sure this was NOT Litchi's fault. My best guess is that I combined several mistakes to cause this crash. 1) accidentally assigned my C2 switch to FVP mode and 2) had previously enabled 30º up camera and then, 3) accidentally — when I lost sigh of the drone — decided to look UP with the camera to see how far under the bridge I was, and how far down (close to the water) I was (in the accidentally triggered FVP mode), I flew it UP into the bridge deck! Stupid, stupid set of mistakes.

However, like the Arlo Guthry song Alice's Restaurant says: "...but that's not what I am here to talk to you about!"

With my second Mavic 2, and a lot more caution, I have been shooting a few Hyperlapses. On the way back from shooting a Hyperlapse I experiences a RTH landing snafu. Not sure what I was seeing. I know what a VRS (Vortex Ring State) is. I do not think this is what happened. It was a cool sunset (about 40º F at the time). I hit RTH from about 300-400 meters out at about the RTH height I was sat (200 feet or so). It made it overhead, and began descending. At perhaps 15-20 meters the craft started gyrating around what should have been the descent vector (Y-axis), kind of like a top. I watched for a few seconds in a mixed state of confusion and fear, then I did what I would have done if I'd known I was experiencing a Vortex Ring State issue: rapidly switched to ATTI mode and flew a little bit away from the center of the descent spiral. This worked, and then I brought it back and landed manually.

Does anyone want to hazard a guess HOW this happened and if there is a way to avoid this? I could have been really bad if I had been descending between some trees or into a goths space between houses or something.

I know VRS is supposed to cause a rapid descent, and I know that this can be accompanied by wobbling, but this was more like a gyro issue, as I I had a heave weight suspended below the centerline of the bird and the gyro was trying to compensate and suddenly got locked into some sort of CoG feedback oscillation.

Anyone have any ideas? Thanks!

This can happen for one of two reasons. Most likely it came too close to some strong magnetic interference which threw off the compass (which isn’t needed in Atti mode which is why this fixed it.) Power lines and transformers can put out a lot of mag interference. Did it give you a warning?

2) if the craft lost s propeller or lost power to a motor it will oscillate like you discribed because this becomes the only way to maintain its attitude. It will automatically switch to course lock mode and is plenty safe to fly in control to a safe landing zone though admittedly this looks very scary, however that’s part of the programming. Switching to a atti mode may have cleared whatever bug was causing this. Again Mag interference is a better guess though.

VRS isn’t possible the rotors are angled so that physically this can’t happen.
 
Most likely it came too close to some strong magnetic interference which threw off the compass
That's unlikely.
If it happened that way, I think the description of the incident would be quite different.
Flight data would confirm.
Power lines and transformers can put out a lot of mag interference.
Only if flying within a few feet.
2) if the craft lost s propeller or lost power to a motor it will oscillate like you discribed because this becomes the only way to maintain its attitude. It will automatically switch to course lock mode and is plenty safe to fly in control to a safe landing zone though admittedly this looks very scary, however that’s part of the programming. Switching to a atti mode may have cleared whatever bug was causing this.
Lose a propeller or a motor and there's only one thing that will happen.
Your drone will uncontrollably spiral into the ground. Game over.
 
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That's unlikely.
If it happened that way, I think the description of the incident would be quite different.
Flight data would confirm.

Only if flying within a few feet.

Lose a propeller or a motor and there's only one thing that will happen.
Your drone will uncontrollably spiral into the ground. Game over.

So what’s your theory then please. Btw I’ve lost a propeller in flight and was easily able to land safely but I agree as I said before that it doesn’t sound like that’s what happened here. I agree it would have to be some super strong mag interference but I was trying to give the op some situations that could cause a Mavic to spin like a top. Do you have anything you want to add?
 
So what’s your theory then please. Btw I’ve lost a propeller in flight and was easily able to land safely but I agree as I said before that it doesn’t sound like that’s what happened here. I agree it would have to be some super strong mag interference but I was trying to give the op some situations that could cause a Mavic to spin like a top. Do you have anything you want to add?

You have lost a propeller from a quadcopter and been able to land safely? Certainly not any DJI quadcopter. There have been a couple of papers written about prototype quads with firmware that manages level, spinning, descent, but any production aircraft simply tumbles.
 
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You have lost a propeller from a quadcopter and been able to land safely? Certainly not any DJI quadcopter. There have been a couple of papers written about prototype quads with firmware that manages level, spinning, descent, but any production aircraft simply tumbles.

Yes wasnt pretty but I didnt crash. wasn’t installed correctly and fly off shortly after take off. I will give you this that maybe losing the entire motor or power to the motor might be different you might be right about that I don’t know but losing a prop doesn’t mean you’ll lose the torsional momentum which keeps the the aircraft level and in control you’ll just lose lift forcing the aircraft to spin to maintain attitude. See this video.

Now it says this is for Octo and hexocopter and do I understand this isn’t directly relevant to this discussion but it does say a hexacopter can lose up to three propellers giving it the same number as in our situation. Again this is for the A3 and not directly relevant but it does I think show that DJI has contingencies built into the firmware for this though I suspect they aren’t confident enough with a quad losing a prop for it to be mentioned in the promotional video See 1:16
 
Yes wasnt pretty but I didnt crash. wasn’t installed correctly and fly off shortly after take off. I will give you this that maybe losing the entire motor or power to the motor might be different you might be right about that I don’t know but losing a prop doesn’t mean you’ll lose the torsional momentum which keeps the the aircraft level and in control you’ll just lose lift forcing the aircraft to spin to maintain attitude. See this video.

Now it says this is for Octo and hexocopter and do I understand this isn’t directly relevant to this discussion but it does say a hexacopter can lose up to three propellers giving it the same number as in our situation. Again this is for the A3 and not directly relevant but it does I think show that DJI has contingencies built into the firmware for this though I suspect they aren’t confident enough with a quad losing a prop for it to be mentioned in the promotional video See 1:16

None of the DJI quads are capable of flight with just 3 motors or 3 props, and that video doesn't say otherwise. Many tens of such events have been reported here and on PP, and I've analyzed the flight logs from a significant number of them. The resulting pitch/roll/yaw signature, with a periodicity of around 0.3 seconds, is a universal result and is not controlled in any sense at all. I've never seen the controlled descent of a quad in that situation.
 
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losing a prop doesn’t mean you’ll lose the torsional momentum
It does.

Hexas/octos are able to lose a prop/motor or 2 only because there are others that can increase power to compensate, not the case on a quad.
 
How in the world do you switch a Mavic 2 pro into ATTI mode?

A relatively simple parameter change using DJI Assistant 2 allows you to remap one of the mode settings (typically Sport or Tripod) to ATTI. I have that set on mine in place of sport mode, and it works just fine.
 
None of the DJI quads are capable of flight with just 3 motors or 3 props, and that video doesn't say otherwise. Many tens of such events have been reported here and on PP, and I've analyzed the flight logs from a significant number of them. The resulting pitch/roll/yaw signature, with a periodicity of around 0.3 seconds, is a universal result and is not controlled in any sense at all. I've never seen the controlled descent of a quad in that situation.

So please explain this video which was the result I had and sounds like what the OP said was was happening in the original post.

Controlled” might be generous and I doubt it happens every time (it didn’t happen every time in this video either). The drone spirals and “gyrates” to maintain attitude and this is why the op thought it might be vortex related

Or This video and notice when he ties a water bottle to the one arm effectivly simulating a lack of lift from one propeller the Mavic starts spinning to compensate for the lessened torsional momentum but he was still in control of the AC still able to preform a controlled descent. Now when he tried to move the drone laterally the drone tried hard to compensate for the shifting center of gravity and fails. Maybe this is why many ultimately crash.

This was always general speculation about what could cause the incident the op had discribed and perhaps we have gotten off topic
 
So please explain this video which was the result I had and sounds like what the OP said was was happening in the original post.

Controlled” might be generous and I doubt it happens every time (it didn’t happen every time in this video either). The drone spirals and “gyrates” to maintain attitude and this is why the op thought it might be vortex related

Or This video and notice when he ties a water bottle to the one arm effectivly simulating a lack of lift from one propeller the Mavic starts spinning to compensate for the lessened torsional momentum but he was still in control of the AC still able to preform a controlled descent. Now when he tried to move the drone laterally the drone tried hard to compensate for the shifting center of gravity and fails. Maybe this is why many ultimately crash.

This was always general speculation about what could cause the incident the op had discribed and perhaps we have gotten off topic

Neither of those are 3 props/motors. The first is 3 complete props and one seriously damaged prop. The damaged prop provides some lift and, more significantly, some angular momentum. The second is an unevenly loaded aircraft that is a completely different situation. It's unbalanced in load but approximately balanced in terms of angular momentum.
 
On my second Mavic 2 Pro now. Before I mention what I think was a VRS wobble today using RTH, I wanted to mention a fatal series of errors that cost me my first Mavic 2.

Christmas Eve I tried to fly a Litchi mission that would have taken the Mavic 2 Pro under a fairly low bridge over a slough/channel here in Portland (for locals this was the SAvie Island Bridge). I lost sight of the MAvic 2 against the grey trees as it was passing under the bridge deck. It aaprently slammed into teh bridge deck, broke of a blade (or two) and the last thing I saw was its gyrating arms as some weak afternoon sun glinted off the aircrafts and the mind-numbing splash as 1300.00 worth of aircraft hit hard in 20 feet of muddy, slow moving water under the bridge. Although I was flying a Litch mission I am pretty sure this was NOT Litchi's fault. My best guess is that I combined several mistakes to cause this crash. 1) accidentally assigned my C2 switch to FVP mode and 2) had previously enabled 30º up camera and then, 3) accidentally — when I lost sigh of the drone — decided to look UP with the camera to see how far under the bridge I was, and how far down (close to the water) I was (in the accidentally triggered FVP mode), I flew it UP into the bridge deck! Stupid, stupid set of mistakes.

However, like the Arlo Guthry song Alice's Restaurant says: "...but that's not what I am here to talk to you about!"

With my second Mavic 2, and a lot more caution, I have been shooting a few Hyperlapses. On the way back from shooting a Hyperlapse I experiences a RTH landing snafu. Not sure what I was seeing. I know what a VRS (Vortex Ring State) is. I do not think this is what happened. It was a cool sunset (about 40º F at the time). I hit RTH from about 300-400 meters out at about the RTH height I was sat (200 feet or so). It made it overhead, and began descending. At perhaps 15-20 meters the craft started gyrating around what should have been the descent vector (Y-axis), kind of like a top. I watched for a few seconds in a mixed state of confusion and fear, then I did what I would have done if I'd known I was experiencing a Vortex Ring State issue: rapidly switched to ATTI mode and flew a little bit away from the center of the descent spiral. This worked, and then I brought it back and landed manually.

Does anyone want to hazard a guess HOW this happened and if there is a way to avoid this? I could have been really bad if I had been descending between some trees or into a goths space between houses or something.

I know VRS is supposed to cause a rapid descent, and I know that this can be accompanied by wobbling, but this was more like a gyro issue, as I I had a heave weight suspended below the centerline of the bird and the gyro was trying to compensate and suddenly got locked into some sort of CoG feedback oscillation.

Anyone have any ideas? Thanks!

Did you recover the drone?
 
Neither of those are 3 props/motors. The first is 3 complete props and one seriously damaged prop. The damaged prop provides some lift and, more significantly, some angular momentum. The second is an unevenly loaded aircraft that is a completely different situation. It's unbalanced in load but approximately balanced in terms of angular momentum.

I found this article which explains why a quadcopter could maintain control after losing a prop/motor just enough for a “controlled crash” which might be a decent term for it.

Quadcopters are a unique consideration. Crashing or landing depends on the center of gravity and center of thrust, obviously.

Your machine is likely to track off sideways, but perhaps not tip and take off like a three prop machine would. With four propellers, your acceptable load area is anywhere within the box created between the props. With a failure, that box becomes a triangle, and if your center of gravity sits within that triangle, it is possible for the craft to continue to fly. Of course, a perfectly balanced drone will now have the center of gravity right on the very edge of the triangle, just hope there’s no wind.

With this loss, you have the two opposite operational propellers providing most of the lift, and the non-paired operational propeller trying to keep the balance. If it spins, the missing prop on the other side is not there to balance, and things will go bad. It will likely spin down, almost to a stop.

In all reality, your best expectations for a prop failure in a quadcopter should be for a controlled crash. The likelihood of your average machine continuing to fly is low, but you should be able to keep it from dropping and probably keep it from taking off into the bushes.”
DJI isn’t your “average machine” and by causing the entire drone to quickly rotate you create angular momentum WITH THE ENTIRE DRONE which was always the point and btw nobody else has put out an theory for what happened to the OP which is what the OP asked for. I don’t know what actually happened but at least I have put out one reason why a drone would “gyrating around what should have been the descent vector (Y-axis), kind of like a top” however unlikely nobody else has even offered another cause for a drone to act this way.
 
I found this article which explains why a quadcopter could maintain control after losing a prop/motor just enough for a “controlled crash” which might be a decent term for it.

Quadcopters are a unique consideration. Crashing or landing depends on the center of gravity and center of thrust, obviously.

Your machine is likely to track off sideways, but perhaps not tip and take off like a three prop machine would. With four propellers, your acceptable load area is anywhere within the box created between the props. With a failure, that box becomes a triangle, and if your center of gravity sits within that triangle, it is possible for the craft to continue to fly. Of course, a perfectly balanced drone will now have the center of gravity right on the very edge of the triangle, just hope there’s no wind.

With this loss, you have the two opposite operational propellers providing most of the lift, and the non-paired operational propeller trying to keep the balance. If it spins, the missing prop on the other side is not there to balance, and things will go bad. It will likely spin down, almost to a stop.

In all reality, your best expectations for a prop failure in a quadcopter should be for a controlled crash. The likelihood of your average machine continuing to fly is low, but you should be able to keep it from dropping and probably keep it from taking off into the bushes.”
DJI isn’t your “average machine” and by causing the entire drone to quickly rotate you create angular momentum WITH THE ENTIRE DRONE which was always the point and btw nobody else has put out an theory for what happened to the OP which is what the OP asked for. I don’t know what actually happened but at least I have put out one reason why a drone would “gyrating around what should have been the descent vector (Y-axis), kind of like a top” however unlikely nobody else has even offered another cause for a drone to act this way.

No one has provided an explanation for the OP because no flight logs have been provided. It would be pointless speculation based on the limited description provided. And, just for the sake of accuracy, the "descent vector" that you keep referring to would be along the z-axis in the DJI flight control system, not the y-axis.

As for three-motor flight, I don't understand what your point is. With regard to DJI quads we have lots of data, all of which shows, without exception, that three-prop flight is not possible with any DJI quad firmware. It's not that it isn't theoretically possible to achieve a spinning controlled descent with three props, but the DJI firmware doesn't implement that solution. DJI quads always tumble, spin and crash.

The article that you linked is a complete massacre of basic physics. The author's caveat, "Bare (sic) with me, I don’t know the proper scientific terms here." should be "Bear with me, I have no clue what I'm talking about.".
 
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That RTH spiral was probably precision landing orienting itself to same heading as when it took off. This is so the downward vision position sensor would have the same perspective as the takeoff reference image.

15 ft is about where it tries to position itself and target the landing site. As it descends, it fine tunes it's position to the target.
 
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DJI isn’t your “average machine”
A look at the numbers in this article would suggest that since DJI drones outsell their next biggest rival by a factor of 15, a DJI drone is your “average machine”.
btw nobody else has put out an theory for what happened to the OP which is what the OP asked for
The OP gave a very brief account of what he observed.
Within 10 mins post #2 was asking for recorded flight data because accounts of incident observations are notoriously inaccurate or misleading for a number of reasons.
Without real data to examine, people are only able to guess what happened and most guesses are likely to be irrelevant or wrong.

The OP has not logged on since he first posted and without his further input, this thread is unlikely to progress toward a solution.
 
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No one has provided an explanation for the OP because no flight logs have been provided. It would be pointless speculation based on the limited description provided. And, just for the sake of accuracy, the "descent vector" that you keep referring to would be along the z-axis in the DJI flight control system, not the y-axis.

As for three-motor flight, I don't understand what your point is. With regard to DJI quads we have lots of data, all of which shows, without exception, that three-prop flight is not possible with any DJI quad firmware. It's not that it isn't theoretically possible to achieve a spinning controlled descent with three props, but the DJI firmware doesn't implement that solution. DJI quads always tumble, spin and crash.

The article that you linked is a complete massacre of basic physics. The author's caveat, "Bare (sic) with me, I don’t know the proper scientific terms here." should be "Bear with me, I have no clue what I'm talking about.".
No one has provided an explanation for the OP because no flight logs have been provided. It would be pointless speculation based on the limited description provided. And, just for the sake of accuracy, the "descent vector" that you keep referring to would be along the z-axis in the DJI flight control system, not the y-axis.

As for three-motor flight, I don't understand what your point is. With regard to DJI quads we have lots of data, all of which shows, without exception, that three-prop flight is not possible with any DJI quad firmware. It's not that it isn't theoretically possible to achieve a spinning controlled descent with three props, but the DJI firmware doesn't implement that solution. DJI quads always tumble, spin and crash.

The article that you linked is a complete massacre of basic physics. The author's caveat, "Bare (sic) with me, I don’t know the proper scientific terms here." should be "Bear with me, I have no clue what I'm talking about.".

DJI Onboard SDK: DJI::OSDK::Control Class Reference

The firmware does have solutions which kills one or more motors in flight if an emergency is detected. Additionally there are additional safe guards implemented during RTH see documentation. The OP was using Litchi and thus the SDK and the incident happened during return to home per OP see above.

I didn’t say it was the Y axis it was the OP but I’m not a **** and didn’t point this out.

This all started because I casually offered up my best 2 cents to answer the OP’s question and offer an explainating for what might have happened. I gave two reasons I thought could cause a drone to act the way it did. Another poster eventually dismissed that it was possible for a motor to lose power mid flight and not tip over. I actually know this is possible bc it has happed to me personally and the drone reacted the same way the poster discribed.

I was told this wasn’t possible insinuating I was lying. I offered up video evidence to the contrary that it was possible and that there is infact firmware on the A3 FC to handle it. and I was still told it wasn’t possible because dispite the video “all the data”. I then offered up a detailed article and dispite the author using an incorrect spelling of the word “bear” I think did a pretty good job of explaining the science behind how it could happen. But no dismissed. It’s just like holy is thou and just because you haven’t seen it before it’s not possible and some of you guys are plain dicks and think you know everything.

I’m done trying to help people on this forum which is a shame cause I’m a developer and I think I have a lot to offer people here.
 
This all started because I casually offered up my best 2 cents to answer the OP’s question and offer an explainating for what might have happened. I gave two reasons I thought could cause a drone to act the way it did.
The problem with this is that you've gone a long way down a particular road that might not be (probably isn't) anything like what the OP actually observed.
His brief description of what he thought he saw may or may not be anything like what really happened.
Post #17 sounds like it could well be what happened and doesn't require such a complicated scenario.
Without data we can't tell for sure, but post #17 has my vote for the most likely solution so far.
Another poster eventually dismissed that it was possible for a motor to lose power mid flight and not tip over. I actually know this is possible bc it has happed to me personally and the drone reacted the same way the poster discribed.
We still haven't seen anything to confirm that the OP's drone did what you are guessing it did.
It could well be something completely different.
Another poster dismissed your scenario because he's examined many incidents of DJI drones spiralling uncontrollably into the ground after losing a prop or motor but never heard of a case like the one you've outlined.
The same goes for me and since every other case I've seen resulted in an uncontrollable downward corkscrew, I have trouble understanding how yours acted in a very different manner.
Was the motor/prop lost completely or was it a case of reducing thrust rather than losing thrust
I was told this wasn’t possible insinuating I was lying. I offered up video evidence to the contrary that it was possible
Evidence that it is possible?
I didn't see any. I saw people clipping props.
Show us a DJI quadcopter flying with one prop removed.
it was possible and that there is infact firmware on the A3 FC to handle it.
On a quadcopter??
But no dismissed. It’s just like holy is thou and just because you haven’t seen it before it’s not possible and some of you guys are plain dicks and think you know everything.
Having differing advice and analysis from someone that's proved again and again over a number of years that he has a very good handle on the physics involved in quadcopter flight and an unknown new member pushing something that seems highly unlikely and unsupported by evidence, I think I know which way I'd go.

And on top of all that, getting too involved in what's just an assumption and probably nothing like what the OP experienced is a waste of effort.
 
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