Mavic pro showing up on Flight Radar 24....weird?>
- Thread starter mrreddog
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Correct, except that you certainly can apply for an N-number for a drone, and many people have done so. And the number in question is registered to a Mavic Pro.
GJD
Active Member
Note that near the top of the firm it says “N12345 is assigned multiple records” . Don’t have any contextual knowledge of what this means. It suggests to me that the registration number is assigned to multiple registrants. That would suggest it isn’t like a “normal” N-number, that it’s sort of a place holder to get a registration in the database when there’s not a unique N-number assigned. It would be interesting to know more.
it was on a now "de-registered" aircraft, the records stay forever, that is why there are multiple records
look at this N number, it was on a chopper that was involved in a fatal with the loss of 21 souls in 1968 and re-issued, multiple records noted, including one from 1931
FAA Registry - Aircraft - N-Number Inquiry
Los Angeles Airways Flight 417 - Wikipedia
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PTBperegrine
Well-Known Member
This has confirmed an experience I had recently. I was flying near Brisbane CBD, over 6.5kms from Brisbane Airport but in proximity to a number of Helicopter Landing Sites. In Australia, you are permitted to fly here, so long as you land immediately if you become aware of an aircraft in the vicinity. During the flight I suddenly received an alert on my screen to land immediately as there was another aircraft in the area. Visibility was effectively unlimited except for some tall buildings, clear sunshine, no wind and no apparent aircraft noise. I decided to keep flying but about 10 minutes later, received the same alert again and landed. There was still no sign of any other aircraft. After carefully reviewing all my photos, there were two pics of commercial airliners as specs in the distance and then there it was, a helicopter, between buildings, over a kilometre away!
So, how did my DJI GO4 app know this? Only one possible answer, my app was communicating on a common band with other aircraft! This would only be possible if you were flying without your phone being in airplane mode...
So, how did my DJI GO4 app know this? Only one possible answer, my app was communicating on a common band with other aircraft! This would only be possible if you were flying without your phone being in airplane mode...
and he's back - 4 recent flights, July 1 - Peru, July 4 - Australia, July 6 - Mexico, July 7 Los Angeles
www.flightradar24.com
Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map | Flightradar24
The world’s most popular flight tracker. Track planes in real-time on our flight tracker map and get up-to-date flight status & airport information.
www.flightradar24.com
No DJI Mavic ever flew like this:
Time 44 mins, Height 3000 ft, Speed >200 kts, Distance approx 120 nautical miles
ps Those countries are Brazil, South Africa, Mexico, Mexico
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and he's back - 5 recent flights, July 1 - Peru, July 4 - Australia, July 6 - Mexico, July 7 Los Angeles
www.flightradar24.com
And not sure why the map was showing me different country names, but whatever.
the point is - suddenly N12345 is popping up everywhere in random countries.
and the registration is a valid one - so either someone is injecting ADSB at random places or a very bad DB registration error is going on attaching his Reg to a bizarre array of flights.
Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map | Flightradar24
The world’s most popular flight tracker. Track planes in real-time on our flight tracker map and get up-to-date flight status & airport information.
www.flightradar24.com
well, explain why its picking up as N12345 ? as official Data.No DJI Mavic ever flew like this:
Time 44 mins, Height 3000 ft, Speed >200 kts, Distance approx 120 nautical miles
ps Those countries are Brazil, South Africa, Mexico, Mexico
And not sure why the map was showing me different country names, but whatever.
the point is - suddenly N12345 is popping up everywhere in random countries.
and the registration is a valid one - so either someone is injecting ADSB at random places or a very bad DB registration error is going on attaching his Reg to a bizarre array of flights.
A brief look at the flight characteristics shows that it's obviously not a Mavic broadcasting those data - it's a real aircraft. And since the tail number is legitimately registered to a Mavic Pro, that means that someone has either accidentally or deliberately misconfigured their aircraft's ADS-B transponder. N12345 could be a generic placeholder tail number, or it could be deliberate obfuscation of an aircraft identity.and he's back - 5 recent flights, July 1 - Peru, July 4 - Australia, July 6 - Mexico, July 7 Los Angeles
Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map | Flightradar24
The world’s most popular flight tracker. Track planes in real-time on our flight tracker map and get up-to-date flight status & airport information.
well, explain why its picking up as N12345 ? as official Data.
And not sure why the map was showing me different country names, but whatever.
the point is - suddenly N12345 is popping up everywhere in random countries.
and the registration is a valid one - so either someone is injecting ADSB at random places or a very bad DB registration error is going on attaching his Reg to a bizarre array of flights.
Either way, the flight tracking websites, such as FR24, simply display the aircraft identity as determined by the transmitted code (HEX or tail number, depending on what is being broadcast).
you are preaching to the choir here, i am a ADSB host myself, have been one for roughly 5 years.
i know exactly how that works, N12345 is 100% not a generic placeholder, it is literally registered with the FAA as a DJI Mavic. the Hex Matches the FAA Registration of A061D9. quite a few of us in at least one of the bigger ADSB groups are trying to figure this one out.
N12345 was also historically registered to another aircraft as well.
De-registered #1 - a Monocoupe 110
I'm thinking this is a data injection attack. considering that 4 flights in 3 separate regions 2x Mexico, 1X Brazil and 1X South Africa, all at random are popping up.
Whats even more interesting is that this isn't the first time N12345 has popped up with extremely bizarre flights. this forum post is evidence of that, along with 2 Reddit posts, and now, confirmed history via 5 ADSB sites.
I'm not preaching to the choir; you clearly disagree with my post. What does being an ADS-B host have to do with this? And why do you not like the simple and obvious explanation that it is just one or more aircraft owners programming their ADS-B transponders with a rather obvious, but incorrect, tail number that is actually currently registered to a Mavic Pro?
I was not suggesting that N12345 is an FAA placeholder - just that it is a number that might well get chosen by someone looking to enter a fake string in the format of a US tail number.
Do you have some other reason to suspect that entirely fake ADS-B data are instead being generated and fed to FR24 and/or other tracking systems under this or any other tail number or HEX code? For example, flights with obviously impossible characteristics.
Mismatched ADS-B data are not uncommon, generally due to incorrectly programmed transponders. This would not be notable at all if it were not for the fact that the registration in question belongs to an sUAS, which clearly could not have made those flights and isn't going to be broadcasting ADS-B data anyway.
#1 - You are attempting to explain to me how ADSB works - I know exactly how it works, I am very active in the ADSB hosting community including down to very technical aspects of ADSB signals. You are also inserting words into my mouth, I never said I DONT LIKE your offered solution. What you are offering that, it is 100% what is going on - you don't know that anymore than my offering of data injection is going on, in my experience with ADSB I have alternative solutions that YOU are refusing to accept as well, so call it a stalemate at this point. You are obviously a DJI Expert, I am a ADSB Expert, I dont work with drones, though I did work with actual aviation ( Former HEMS/SAR Helicopter Pilot myself, forced to medically retire ) now i turned my background IT career into my full time career as an IT Professional and lifelong aviation hobbyist still working in and around aviation as a IT Contractor for the FAA and Airports around the US. I have some very serious levels of understanding with ADSB that I could write 10 paragraphs worth of technical specs on ADSB for you if you would like?
#2 - then why did you state this "--->N12345 could be a generic placeholder tail number <--- , or it could be deliberate obfuscation of an aircraft identity." after being provided the fact the FAA Registration is valid, and contains a ADSB Hex code. You are conflicting your answers by first stating it could be a generic placeholder, then saying, "I was not suggesting that N12345 is an FAA placeholder" yet you clearly said it.
#3 - we ( several ADSB Communities ) have seen fake ADSB Signals injected before, in similar patterns like this, of very obvious fake aircraft ID's such as helicopters traveling from Europe to US over the ocean at Mach 4 ( yes, bizarre ) it CAN be done and does happen from time to time. so that is why I am suggesting the same Registration popping up in 3 different regions across the time span of 5 days is possibly an injection going on. Most people who inject data do it in a way that they get caught and the MAC address and IP of the injector is banned from the ingestion gateway where all the feeders are providing ADSB Data. Some of them are smart enough to drop a flight then disappear for a day or two, or more. its rare, but it does happen from time to time.
On top of that, I never said it wasnt a mismatch, i just find it very coincidental that the same code is in 3 regions across 5 days and 3 very different flight profiles. including a much much older flight of N12345 - flew from an Asian Country, all the way across China, Russia, into the US and landing at Oshkosh Wisconsin.
I havent even gone over N12345's history past the July 1 mark, but i bet you it contains more flights of random locations and even more bizarre flight patterns.
#4 - i never said mismatches DONT occur, stop putting words in my mouth. DJI's come with ADSB anyways, so that last portion of your statement is null per DJI itself. it can and should be broadcasting ADSB when in the mandated airspaces in the US. in fact, a transponder does not get user programmed to the Registration number, it gets programmed to the hexcode, now, i dont know how a drone gets programmed for its ADSB, but i know for a fact, a transponder on an airplane is much more complex and requires oversight.
once airborne the Databases for the various ADSB Sites then see the hexcode being broadcasted and append the registration to the hexcode on the map or whatever GUI is being used. only the callsign is user programmed. So if you want me to beleive that 4 separate aircraft in 5 days all used A0619D as their hexcodes, then that means all of these pilots googled up "Mr. Gutterman" and looked for his registration to get that hexcode to assign to their transponder, because all 4 of these aircraft supposedly flew with A0619D as the broadcasted transponder. callsigns do not bring up a registration. So yeah, anyone could put the callsign as N12345, but what matters is that A0619D hexcode. which ALL of these aircraft had appended to them.
This alone is why i believe it was injected data, because the rarity of 1 single registration popping up as its hexcode in 3 different regions in the span of 5 days is soo rare, its **** near impossible unless it was someone trolling with injected data.
EDIT: anyways, im not looking to debate this endlessly, you have your theory I have mine. I just found it interesting based on the history of N12345 being a valid reg, that its mysteriously popping up in places it should not be popping up.
in fact, a tidbit i forgot to mention, that last flight - XB-YMK is in fact, a Cessna 182, but somehow is still using A0619D as its hex code.
we are apparently at an impasse on which is the truth, i just found this interesting. Google turned up this very forum thread along with many others in aviation and reddit posts, one of which i already posted similar context to and the other one being that very extreme flight from the Asian County to Oshkosh Wisconsin.
I'll depart the forum if you want me to, considering i dont even have a drone, never really got into the drone hobby.
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That's a strangely defensive response.
The geographically diverse flights would presumably require it to be multiple aircraft if they are real, but possibly just one person injecting data could have created all the flights, so that might shift the probability a bit towards injection. Any thoughts on potential motive, beyond just digital vandalism?
So you do like my explanation?
Nowhere did I argue that injection is not a possible explanation - just that it's not the simplest solution. And I made the point that if you have examples of unphysical flight data masquerading as real flights then that would be additional evidence for your hypothesis.
I'm not a DJI expert, but thanks the endorsement and for providing your resumé. It's unfortunate that you think it bolsters your argument better than just making the technical case.
Generic placeholder, a bit like using 12345 as a password placeholder. I did not anywhere mention "FAA placeholder".
Okay - that's interesting. Can you provide specific examples?
I looked at the past year of N12345 flights. There are dozens of them. 18 in just the past month. They are all over the place, but all the ones I checked looked like real general aviation flights. None had impossible flight data. Did you find any that did?
And I never said that you said mismatches don't occur, so I wasn't putting anything in your mouth. Looks a bit like projection. You should consider not throwing that card so often, especially when it misrepresents what is clearly written, not to mention your slightly annoying habit of doing it yourself (see above).
Well that is completely incorrect. DJI aircraft have an ADS-B receiver, not a transmitter. And it is illegal in the US for sUAS to broadcast ADS-B, per 14 CFR 107.53, without specific authorization.
As I said - almost no sUAS are equipped to broadcast ADS-B, so they don't need programming.
Agreed - N12345 is a lot more obvious as a choice than A0619D, so if all those systems are only looking at the Mode S address and ignoring the callsign field then anyone wanting to appear as N12345 would have to look up the Mode S code. But then that would also apply to anyone wanting to inject data looking like N12345, so it doesn't seem a compelling reason to prefer the injection explanation per se. And it is the work of a moment on Google to get the code associated with a tail number.
The geographically diverse flights would presumably require it to be multiple aircraft if they are real, but possibly just one person injecting data could have created all the flights, so that might shift the probability a bit towards injection. Any thoughts on potential motive, beyond just digital vandalism?
as far as providing evidence of injection, no, i cannot, because those tracks, once discovered as injected data are deleted outright there is no recovery of them, as they are physically deleted from the tracking DB's. i can attest to that specifically for ADSBx and Airplanes.live places like FR24 and flight tracker, i don't know what their policy is, nor, do i think they even use open sources and are immune from injection like this.
I would have to ask the owner of the one group I am most active with ( airplanes.live ) to see if they still have those logs of known injected paths. I can do that at least, but as far as actually showing you the physical tracks, no, that is impossible at this point. I just find it highly irregular that all these planes are doing this by using a US Based FAA Reg in all these other places, knowing it would look suspicious.
From the previous injection paths i have seen its very easy to mimic an actual aircraft flight path. there have been a few that were just blatantly obvious ( as i noted the Mach 4 speed was one of them at one point ) based on distance covered in minuscule time amounts and just impossible flight parameters based on the aircraft type itself.
I do know that errors popup as well, like a C172 flying at 109,000 Feet due to bad altimeter data and other kinds of common errors.
Others are a specific aircraft jumping from France to Australia in 3 seconds and drawing a MLAT line across the map!
as i said, i am not here to endlessly debate this, i found it mighty peculiar that all these so called planes are using N12345 in countries where a US N-Reg would not only be absolutely suspicious it would be illegal and/or highly impossible for that particular aircraft to even have come from the US and actively flying in the other country its flying in. Additionally only some of them are simultaneously showing up as Official flights while the rest of them only show up as open source. The ones that match official data, these are most likely actual planes, like XB-MYK in Mexico, but there are others that are simply only showing up on places like ADSBx and airplanes.live which are 10 fold more easy to manipulate with data injection.
a prime example of injection, was shortly after the Russian Invasion of Ukraine, Putin's IL-96 equivalent of our AF1 was supposedly tracked over Ukraine itself, then it zipped over to Germany, then the US, then China.... in a matter of 13 minutes. ill see if i can find any kind of a screenshot of this, but that's slim in itself.
'Agreed - N12345 is a lot more obvious as a choice than A0619D, so if all those systems are only looking at the Mode S address"
the DATABASE only looks at the Hexcode, not the CALLSIGN for getting the registration, because the callsign is user supplied, the Hexcode is not. thats why i mentioned how and why A0619D is important here on why all these various targets popping up all over the place, may be injected data.
i could fly as N12345 myself ( though it would be illegal under FAA FAR Regs ) , if i could regain my medicals to fly one of the AS-350's my prior employment still has ( oh, nevermind, which i see they sold that aircraft to someone in Canada and de-registered it while retaining the N7QY as a paid fee retainer ) , i could easily set my callsign as N12345 on the XPNDR , but what is going to stick out and cause a conflict is my hexcode would still show up as A95151 which would point the DB to the actual registration of A95151 which would come back to NQ7Y under FAA Records exposing the bad Callsign.
so for data injection, all you need to do is provide a hexcode which makes it look like its pointing to N12345 as a DJI Mavic , have a GPS Simulator plot the flight path at a speed and heading and steer it around virutally, presto, you have a ghost plane that doesn't actually exist in the airpsace its indicating.
If its outright illegal for a drone or UAS to broadcast ADSB, why is Mr Gutterman's ADSB suspicously exempt from this and is assigned a Hexcode?
I went back and checked this, you are right, no Class 1 or 2 drone has a hexcode and ADSB Out, but somehow, N12345 does. im curious how Mr Gutterman got assigned a code as such.
I'm going to text a friend of mine who's wife works at the ATL FSDO for the FAA and see what she says.
I would have to ask the owner of the one group I am most active with ( airplanes.live ) to see if they still have those logs of known injected paths. I can do that at least, but as far as actually showing you the physical tracks, no, that is impossible at this point. I just find it highly irregular that all these planes are doing this by using a US Based FAA Reg in all these other places, knowing it would look suspicious.
From the previous injection paths i have seen its very easy to mimic an actual aircraft flight path. there have been a few that were just blatantly obvious ( as i noted the Mach 4 speed was one of them at one point ) based on distance covered in minuscule time amounts and just impossible flight parameters based on the aircraft type itself.
I do know that errors popup as well, like a C172 flying at 109,000 Feet due to bad altimeter data and other kinds of common errors.
Others are a specific aircraft jumping from France to Australia in 3 seconds and drawing a MLAT line across the map!
as i said, i am not here to endlessly debate this, i found it mighty peculiar that all these so called planes are using N12345 in countries where a US N-Reg would not only be absolutely suspicious it would be illegal and/or highly impossible for that particular aircraft to even have come from the US and actively flying in the other country its flying in. Additionally only some of them are simultaneously showing up as Official flights while the rest of them only show up as open source. The ones that match official data, these are most likely actual planes, like XB-MYK in Mexico, but there are others that are simply only showing up on places like ADSBx and airplanes.live which are 10 fold more easy to manipulate with data injection.
a prime example of injection, was shortly after the Russian Invasion of Ukraine, Putin's IL-96 equivalent of our AF1 was supposedly tracked over Ukraine itself, then it zipped over to Germany, then the US, then China.... in a matter of 13 minutes. ill see if i can find any kind of a screenshot of this, but that's slim in itself.
'Agreed - N12345 is a lot more obvious as a choice than A0619D, so if all those systems are only looking at the Mode S address"
the DATABASE only looks at the Hexcode, not the CALLSIGN for getting the registration, because the callsign is user supplied, the Hexcode is not. thats why i mentioned how and why A0619D is important here on why all these various targets popping up all over the place, may be injected data.
i could fly as N12345 myself ( though it would be illegal under FAA FAR Regs ) , if i could regain my medicals to fly one of the AS-350's my prior employment still has ( oh, nevermind, which i see they sold that aircraft to someone in Canada and de-registered it while retaining the N7QY as a paid fee retainer ) , i could easily set my callsign as N12345 on the XPNDR , but what is going to stick out and cause a conflict is my hexcode would still show up as A95151 which would point the DB to the actual registration of A95151 which would come back to NQ7Y under FAA Records exposing the bad Callsign.
so for data injection, all you need to do is provide a hexcode which makes it look like its pointing to N12345 as a DJI Mavic , have a GPS Simulator plot the flight path at a speed and heading and steer it around virutally, presto, you have a ghost plane that doesn't actually exist in the airpsace its indicating.
If its outright illegal for a drone or UAS to broadcast ADSB, why is Mr Gutterman's ADSB suspicously exempt from this and is assigned a Hexcode?
I went back and checked this, you are right, no Class 1 or 2 drone has a hexcode and ADSB Out, but somehow, N12345 does. im curious how Mr Gutterman got assigned a code as such.
I'm going to text a friend of mine who's wife works at the ATL FSDO for the FAA and see what she says.
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Droning on and on...
Well-Known Member
Staying out of the argument, it should be noted that no DJI drone is equipped with ADS-B Out, so none broadcast an ADS-B signal.
Assuming a Mavic Pro has been modified to broadcast ADS-B for sake of argument (testing airspace management, ATC controllers, or somesuch), consider the odd/impossible flight data could be the result of the drone being a passenger on a full-sized aircraft, and this modified Mavic Pro can simply have been turned on for a few minutes during the flight. Maybe purposefully.
Assuming a Mavic Pro has been modified to broadcast ADS-B for sake of argument (testing airspace management, ATC controllers, or somesuch), consider the odd/impossible flight data could be the result of the drone being a passenger on a full-sized aircraft, and this modified Mavic Pro can simply have been turned on for a few minutes during the flight. Maybe purposefully.
to that i can only say - i can imagine the panic that caused with TA/RA Collision TCAS Warnings suddenly plastering ATC's screens and the cockpit throwing immediate and constant TCAS Warnings.
Thanks for the response, and I understand your suspicions. I'll reiterate that I'm not ruling out your injection hypothesis. An issue with N12345 is just that it is such an obvious fake number, so why would it be chosen for an injection attack. And I suspect that the fact that it is actually registered to a Mavic Pro is purely coincidental.
On the question of why Gutterman has an ICAO hex ID for his Mavic, there is no prohibition on having such an ID for a drone. Anyone can apply for an N number for a drone, and that comes with an ICAO hex ID. It does not change whether or not it is legal for the aircraft in question to broadcast ADS-B, or represent authorization to do so if it is otherwise prohibited. If the aircraft is an sUAS it is simply illegal to do so. And note that the Mavic Pro did not have ADS-B in or out. The lack of other examples of drones with N numbers is likely because there is no practical reason to get one.
Droning on and on...
Well-Known Member
Suppose if it was a test, maybe everyone was informed ahead of time?
I'm just speculating from ignorance, I know little about that slice of the aviation pie.
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