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Minimum altitudes for manned craft

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Are there rules or laws regarding minimum altitudes for manned aircraft. I was flying about 1.5 miles away from an active class G airport. I was at 400 feet in vlos and heard a plane loud . I quickly came down to 200 feet and a low flying piper cub came over most likely in route to the air port . I am sure he was lower than 1000 feet.
I have seen helicopters low too.

I was shocked, annoyed, scared and glad I was in vlos ......
One question that's not been asked @Gord ... Were you actually flying your drone in an area that was on the extended runway centre-line? We'd expect to see aircraft on landing finals at a lower altitude than 1,000 ft at 1.5 miles, or at lower altitudes during initial take-off climb-out - but all circuit traffic should be 1,000 ft AGL (when not landing or taking off) - and aircraft joining the circuit usually do so by joining overhead at 1,500 ft.
If you are flying on or near that extended centre-line, then you do need to advise the local airport authority, and you do need to be aware of all aircraft operations!
 
I live in Wilmington Delaware at least 6 miles from the nearest airport. I was grilling on my patio last night and saw a small single engine fly by and I would be surprised if it was more than 400' AGL.
 
The reason I ask is because what you are taught when studying for part 107 is that air planes should be 1000 feet agl except for landing and taking off. A mile out they shouldn’t be lower, but is there really a law they have to follow? Seems like it would be easier to check up in them.

While I was at the location many planes came over and they were all much higher.
1,000 feet not true — over open water it is 500’ for airplanes.

Helicopters have no minimum altitude restrictions unless it’s over an open air assembly of people.

Common sense is to stay 5 miles away from active airports and don’t fly above 400’ or outside line of sight.
 
Under 1000 feet 1.5 to 2 miles out landing? Prior to flying 107 When I used to call the airport they were fine with me flying at 400 feet in this location.

While that might be the case the fact of the matter is your flying area seems to put you in a hot spot for planes at low altitudes and close proximity. This worked out fine because you were alert, had your eyes & ears open, and you stayed clear of other aircraft. Now that you know this could happen you may want to find a different area or add some other policies to help increase situational awareness. I'd suggest the following:

  • Still make contact with the airport/facility and let them know, as a courtesy what your intentions are.
  • Go ahead and file a DROTAM at 1-800-WX-BRIEF or Flight Service
  • Consider using a VO in this area to double your eyes & ears available to locate conflicts with other aircraft

I have no clue what airport you were operating near but keep in mind that in some of the less hectic airports you could have pilots practicing, training, or simply "burning hours" and doing some less than normal approaches to the airport. At KAVL and 0A7 we have a very active Flight School and we get to see some unusual approaches and emergency procedures in and around the area.

I’m sick of the vilification of uavs and believe manned aircraft need to be more strict about the law as well.. it’s a reality that they will be sharing the sky with UAVS. Whether or not UAVS are used recreationally.

Wow.. just wow.... Sorry bud but your actions and lack of understanding of the NAS and how planes approach/depart an airport merely proves WHY our industry has been "vilified". Flying around 1.5 - 2.0 miles from an airport and complaining about low flying airplanes is very much like sitting an a major interstate ON/OFF RAMP and complaining about cars going too fast for city streets.

Manned Aircraft are STRICTLY controlled especially near/around airports. We have altitude limits (high and low), approach/departure paths, speed limits (high and low), and so much more. You should climb in with a licensed pilot and take a ride into and out of an airport with other traffic around and see what Pilot Task Saturation looks & feels like.

sUAS are going to be around and a huge industry up until someone makes that one irreversible mistake and it ends up causing Loss-Of-Life in a manned aircraft. If (hopefully not when) that happens the industry is going to experience a shake-down that will be mind boggling. When people become afraid to fly and the big hitters see a drop in their Corp profits you'll see levels of regulation/restriction that will make it difficult to say the word drone let alone buy and operate one. We think we are a hug industry until the travel industry steps up to the plate and starts barking orders. Some of the airlines make more in profit a year than our entire industry generates as a whole in a year. We may have more "aircraft" but they have more pocket book and lobbying power than we could even imagine. Let's not think we are such an industry that we can re-write the books and do as we please.

If we don't safely integrate into the NAS then we very well could get regulated out the back door.

Sorry about the rant. I need some caffeine in a bad way LOL.
 


I think the OP was flying 1.5 miles away from an airport not from his aircraft.
 
Wow, you need to educate yourself in aircraft operations. You think full size planes are unregulated?

Take a look at your area on a sectional. Congested areas are shaded yellow. If you dont live within a yellow shaded box, that plane can fly anywhere that's not within 500 ft of a man made structure. As for ****** about a plane so low only 1.5 miles from an airport, do you think planes land vertically? When I'm on a straight in final (3 miles to touchdown) I'm decending at 400-600 feet per minute, which is pretty average. Pattern altitude is typically 1000' agl. Which puts me at roughly 500' agl at 1.5 miles out. Short field, I'm often lower and slower because I have to touch down on the numbers and stop in a hurry.

Anyone who flys a toy helicopter and ******* about lax regulations for actual airplanes is sadly uneducated.

I've been building drones for a decade, and flying actual planes for twice as long. Just in case someone thinks I dont know what I'm talking about.
 
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Wow, you need to educate yourself in aircraft operations. You think full size planes are unregulated?

Take a look at your area on a sectional. Congested areas are shaded yellow. If you dont live within a yellow shaded box, that plane can fly anywhere that's not within 500 ft of a man made structure. As for ****** about a plane so low only 1.5 miles from an airport, do you think planes land vertically? When I'm on a straight in final (3 miles to touchdown) I'm decending at 400-600 feet per minute, which is pretty average. Pattern altitude is typically 1000' agl. Which puts me at roughly 500' agl at 1.5 miles out. Short field, I'm often lower and slower because I have to touch down on the numbers and stop in a hurry.

Anyone who flys a toy helicopter and ******* about lax regulations for actual airplanes is sadly uneducated.

I've been building drones for a decade, and flying actual planes for twice as long. Just in case someone thinks I dont know what I'm talking about.

I fly drones and was a manned aircraft pilot for 20 years (private pilot, instrument rating). Within 5 miles of an airport you're going to see aircraft in congested areas below 500' and well below 500' the closer you get to an airport. Outside of the airport environment no manned aircraft should be flying below 500' REGARDLESS of the rules that would allow them to do it except in an emergency. Why? Because there are hundreds of thousands of folks flying drones today at and below 400' that weren't flying drones 5 or 10 years ago.

Drone pilots have a responsibility to be aware of how airspace is used within 5 miles of an airport. That said manned aircraft pilots should be aware of how airspace outside that 5 mile area is being used today by tens of thousands of drone pilots. While flying your manned airplane at 300' in a sparsely populated area may be legal the drone pilot flying his drone LEGALLY at 300', that drone you don't see in your manned aircraft, could end your life if a collision occurs. That reality makes it prudent for manned aircraft NOT to be flying in airspace that can legally be used by drone pilots unless there is an emergency. The drone pilot might be out $1,000 if a collision occurs while the manned aircraft pilot could be out $10,000 for repairs and/or forfeit his life because he isn't willing to face the reality of airspace usage in 2019.
 
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Just chill out after this post I’m done here.. I was not 1.5 miles away.. I was flying over a quarry and was never more than 1000 feet away..never out of vlos

Thanks to those of you for the helpful info.. but I didn’t come here to be attacked.. and I understand the rules well.. If I was one of “those people” I would not have been able to avoid a possible collision. For all I know the plane was still higher than me.. I was able to avoid a possible bad situation because I was flying safe and in vlos.


I am bothered by the fact that manned aircraft don’t follow rules(helicopters crashing into buildings in NYC in a no fly zone and flying in bad whether without instrument certification) but all you hear about is how dangerous drones are.

I doubt I’ll fly there again, but a handheld radio might have been helpful. And stilling calling an airport is a good idea.. thanks for that advice.

Thanks to those of you who posted helpful info.

I also thought posting my experience might make some people think more about the possible dangers.

I am not a pilot but I do take being a drone pilot seriously, took the certification process seriously , and continue to to take the responsibility of flying UAVS seriously.

Please do not talk to me here in a way that you would not talk to me in person.
 
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There are no absolutes. General aviation is well regulated, drone operations are regulated, but there are plenty of rule breakers.
I live between a small unmanned (no tower operation) airport and a popular lake/river (reservoir) Lake Travis. Private airplanes regularly take off from the airport clear the runway and circle pattern and descend to the lake for joy flight with their weekend friends and families.
Many fly out from Austin (to our airport) to get that $100 hamburger, fuel up with cheaper gas and joy fly around the lake then go back home.
The point in case, many fly below 500 feet at or near the lake as well as above the public parks, on regular bases.
Private pilots are no saints.
My own flight instructor admits to that...before/After citing the rules.
 
There are some areas where planes love to fly low. I am on Lake Norman in NC, and I see planes all the time at +/- 200 feet above the lake, and the shoreline next to it. I was down between some tree groups in my front yard when I heard a plane, I came up to 150 ft and there was a plane heading straight at me, scared the dickens out of me. I went straight back down and it wasn't 15 seconds later he flew over me. I have been very careful to listen for anything as you cannot see them with the trees in our area....
 
1,000 feet not true — over open water it is 500’ for airplanes.

Helicopters have no minimum altitude restrictions unless it’s over an open air assembly of people.

Common sense is to stay 5 miles away from active airports and don’t fly above 400’ or outside line of sight.
Sorry but you are incorrect regarding open water. Any aircraft over open water away from a structure or boat or people can fly right down as low as they want to above the water, though this is not a safe thing to do. In manned flying, altitude is safety in case you have an engine out.

As for open ground away from towns etc. you can again fly right down to the deck if you wish, that is the law. An airliner will approach to land at a 3 degree slope, into the intended arrival airport. Small aircraft will be flying in the pattern around an airport, remote or tower controlled at anywhere from 500ft to the standard 1,000ft AGL. The general safety rule is that you fly at an altitude in the pattern that will allow you to glide to the runway, in the event of an engine out. So think of it as a giant V shape all around the airport runway. The further out you are, the higher you will be, the closer, in the lower in the pattern you will be.

As for the Piper Cub, there is a new category or class, of aircraft called Light Sport Aircraft, and the Piper Cub now falls into that weight category. Many of these light (weight) aircraft may fly at lower altitudes in the pattern and closer in because their speed range is lower than many of the heavier faster GA aircraft, like a Mooney, for example. A GA aircraft does not generally come in to land at a 3 degree approach angle like a commercial airliner does, but they often like to do shallow approaches to work their speed off easier than dropping in high with the resultant airspeed associated with such an approach. Often a small biz-jet, like a Falcon or Lear, for example, may do a straight in approach from 10 miles out, at those smaller uncontrolled airports and that would be at a shallow approach angle.

Best just not to mix in with traffic that close to an airport. Go and take a flight lesson one day and you may have a better appreciation for manned flight and all that there is to do and look out for when in the pattern, either close in or further out. I fly both and understand the feelings on both ends of the spectrum but would never go flying around an airport just 1.5 miles away.

Don't get it into your mind that a manned aircraft must be 1,000ft above the ground, because that is simply not true. They are required to avoid, as in fly around, someone or a building on the ground when out in open land or down on the water, but they are allowed to be what ever altitude they wish, when out over open ground away from everywhere.
 
At 2 miles, on a standard 3° guide slope, a landing aircraft will be at 550 ft AGL. You really should not be bleating about manned aircraft not following the law when you have absolutely no clue about even the most basic aspects of aviation. In fact you are a perfect example of the problem of allowing recreational pilots access to the NAS without any training at all.

Whenever threads like this come up, someone will always make a comment about the 'standard 3* glide slope'. That's an interesting number. A three degree glide slope corresponds to a 19 to 1 glide ratio. If one is flying a typical GA aircraft and is on a 3* glide slope when the engine quits, that aircraft is not going to make the runway. Different people have different approaches to safety, but my flight instructor always told me that when I'm on final approach I should always be high enough to make the runway with a dead engine and a 3* approach angle isn't going to enable that.

Earlier in this thread, there was a post about an aircraft with a 7.5 to 1 glide ratio and how hard it would be to get down from 1000' agl. A 7.5/1 glide ration is a glide angle of a little over 7*. If that aircraft is on a 3* approach and the engine quits, it isn't going to land at the runway. Getting down from 1000' agl isn't hard, it just requires a slip. And every pilot ought to know how to do that.

Nick
 
Whenever threads like this come up, someone will always make a comment about the 'standard 3* glide slope'. That's an interesting number. A three degree glide slope corresponds to a 19 to 1 glide ratio. If one is flying a typical GA aircraft and is on a 3* glide slope when the engine quits, that aircraft is not going to make the runway. Different people have different approaches to safety, but my flight instructor always told me that when I'm on final approach I should always be high enough to make the runway with a dead engine and a 3* approach angle isn't going to enable that.

Earlier in this thread, there was a post about an aircraft with a 7.5 to 1 glide ratio and how hard it would be to get down from 1000' agl. A 7.5/1 glide ration is a glide angle of a little over 7*. If that aircraft is on a 3* approach and the engine quits, it isn't going to land at the runway. Getting down from 1000' agl isn't hard, it just requires a slip. And every pilot ought to know how to do that.

Nick

That quote was mine regarding a Piper Cub: 7.5/1 glide ratio at idle = 7500 feet distance or 1.4 miles (starting at 1000 feet AGL) assuming still air, etc. to make the runway at a mile out, the Piper would need to use a -19% glide angle at idle to make the runway.
 
Whenever threads like this come up, someone will always make a comment about the 'standard 3* glide slope'. That's an interesting number. A three degree glide slope corresponds to a 19 to 1 glide ratio. If one is flying a typical GA aircraft and is on a 3* glide slope when the engine quits, that aircraft is not going to make the runway. Different people have different approaches to safety, but my flight instructor always told me that when I'm on final approach I should always be high enough to make the runway with a dead engine and a 3* approach angle isn't going to enable that.

Earlier in this thread, there was a post about an aircraft with a 7.5 to 1 glide ratio and how hard it would be to get down from 1000' agl. A 7.5/1 glide ration is a glide angle of a little over 7*. If that aircraft is on a 3* approach and the engine quits, it isn't going to land at the runway. Getting down from 1000' agl isn't hard, it just requires a slip. And every pilot ought to know how to do that.

Nick

The 3 degree approach is standard for a commercial airliner, which is very different to a basic GA aircraft. They would be doing a very different approach than an airliner, plus you may be on short finals or long finals depending on what other traffic and the speed of that other traffic may be in the pattern or possibly on a straight in approach maybe 5-10 miles out.

Your instructor taught you correctly regarding position to glide to the runway when in the pattern. I explained in an earlier post about a V shape and your distance and altitude to the runway while in the pattern, whether it be close in or further out. That position from the runway and altitude is specifically so that in the event of an engine out, you can safely glide to the runway.

And yes you can always slip an aircraft in to lose altitude, but some aircraft slip better than others and it is good practice to drop in at a controlled speed from higher up, but more often than not, you are not doing a slip in a normal approach. It is a good maneuver to do to drop in to tight spots, when needed, as long as you can get out of there as well, after landing.

You just have to understand that we share the air with lots of different types of flying machines from a commercial jet, large or small, all the way down to an ultralight and they are going to be at different positions and altitudes around an airport as well as have every right to be there. Therefore you can not take a stand rule and apply it, or think it applies to everything that is up there flying about. Make rule number one... never fly in close proximity to an airport, and you should probably be just fine.
 
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That quote was mine regarding a Piper Cub: 7.5/1 glide ratio at idle = 7500 feet distance or 1.4 miles (starting at 1000 feet AGL) assuming still air, etc. to make the runway at a mile out, the Piper would need to use a -19% glide angle at idle to make the runway.
Not necessarily because you must take other things into consideration when working those things out. You could be doing that on a cold dry day in winter or a hot humid day in summer. I can assure you, the results will be very different between those two scenarios. There is a lot to consider when flying, a lot more than many if not most non pilots realize. That's why pilots make more money than bus drivers.
 
There are too many variables to know if the pilot did anything wrong and the OP didn't say where he was or what airport he was near, so we don't know if the area was congested. Cubs typically don't make straight-in approaches, so this guy was probably just out flying around near the airport, maybe entering on a 45 or an extended downwind. It could be that he was at an 800' AGL pattern altitude, or maybe he really was lower over what he considered to be a non-congested area. Who knows? At least the OP now knows there are legal ways to fly at 500' AGL.
 
There are too many variables to know if the pilot did anything wrong and the OP didn't say where he was or what airport he was near, so we don't know if the area was congested. Cubs typically don't make straight-in approaches, so this guy was probably just out flying around near the airport, maybe entering on a 45 or an extended downwind. It could be that he was at an 800' AGL pattern altitude, or maybe he really was lower over what he considered to be a non-congested area. Who knows? At least the OP now knows there are legal ways to fly at 500' AGL.
Yes plus a lot of people misjudge altitudes of flying machines when standing on the ground looking up.
 
There are too many variables to know if the pilot did anything wrong and the OP didn't say where he was or what airport he was near, so we don't know if the area was congested. Cubs typically don't make straight-in approaches, so this guy was probably just out flying around near the airport, maybe entering on a 45 or an extended downwind. It could be that he was at an 800' AGL pattern altitude, or maybe he really was lower over what he considered to be a non-congested area. Who knows? At least the OP now knows there are legal ways to fly at 500' AGL.

Yeah, that quote for a 7.5:1 glide ratio was for a 65 degree day, 1260 lbs at 1000’ msl. Cubs are my favorite planes, we have a club of them at the local airport and they have a hanger where they maintain and are restoring some. Pretty fun to see!
 
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