More about Gatwick Airport Terrorists

[ataraxia]

Online registration GPS tracking... LOL! That will make no difference whatsoever. The only people that will bother to register will be the law abiding majority. And those people will fly their drones according to the rules/laws anyway. Those intending to use a drone for any other purpose, will simply not register. So whilst the worlds different aviation authorities sit in their meetings dreaming up other ways to regulate the s**t out of drone users and probably make a good few £'s/$'s in the process, they can rest assured all their efforts will come to nothing if they think it'll stop the illegal use of drones or stop drones flying in restricted airspace. The only people that will be affected will be the law abiding majority who will have to jump through hoops if they want to fly and have to pay through the nose for the privilege....

Happy new year!

So, what is the answer? Don't do anything at all? Your statement could apply to any law, those determined to break it will still break it - of course, but then we have a clear distinction between law abiders and law breakers, so more measures can be put in place to prevent the latter.

Treat drones the same as cars - to drive a car legally you must pass a test and get a valid licence, have insurance and pay road tax. People who don't intend to do any or all of those will still do so, so the authorities have developed systems to deal with it. We have ANPR cameras which can identify number plates and an automated system behind them which checks for registration details and drivers. We have patrols on the motorways by overt and undercover officers who perform the same job. We have developed a licencing and testing system, with a set structure which is the same nationally.

Public drone use is in it's early days, just as cars once were. We haven't banned the public from using cars just because a few idiots can't drive them properly, and we shouldn't take that attitude with drones either.

 

[bushie]

I’ve always wondered what happened to the geofencing software on those drones? Because I was in the middle of the Australian Outback and tried desperately to launch my Mavic Pro but it just wouldn’t take off.. and a few minutes later I realised I was in the vicinity of and airport.. it was a mining company’s airports.. so the cops had clearance to fly there. No wonder

You must have been very unlucky. In most of WA the "no fly zones" in the DJI Go4 app are nothing like the zones on the "Can I Fly There" CASA app. DJI don't show most airports and even the zones around Perth and Jandacot are hopeless different. Given the different rules in Australia I didn't think the geolock was even implemented here.

 

[Ren57]

Treat drones the same as cars - to drive a car legally you must pass a test and get a valid licence, have insurance and pay road tax. People who don't intend to do any or all of those will still do so, so the authorities have developed systems to deal with it. We have ANPR cameras which can identify number plates and an automated system behind them which checks for registration details and drivers. We have patrols on the motorways by overt and undercover officers who perform the same job. We have developed a licencing and testing system, with a set structure which is the same nationally.

That is all very true but a bank robber isn't going to drive to the robbery in their own car are they? They will either steal a car or use false plates. I agree with you insomuch as there may be a case for some basic training and learning about air laws/rules and maybe take a test to prove that you've understood it. What you're saying is drone registration will stop people flying near airports? So the environmental activist about to fly their drone across an international airport runway is going to say, "Oh wait, I can't do that! I haven't registered my drone". Yeah, that'll work...

 

[ataraxia]

Treat drones the same as cars - to drive a car legally you must pass a test and get a valid licence, have insurance and pay road tax. People who don't intend to do any or all of those will still do so, so the authorities have developed systems to deal with it. We have ANPR cameras which can identify number plates and an automated system behind them which checks for registration details and drivers. We have patrols on the motorways by overt and undercover officers who perform the same job. We have developed a licencing and testing system, with a set structure which is the same nationally.

That is all very true but a bank robber isn't going to drive to the robbery in their own car are they? They will either steal a car or use false plates. I agree with you insomuch as there may be a case for some basic training and learning about air laws/rules and maybe take a test to prove that you've understood it. What you're saying is drone registration will stop people flying near airports? So the environmental activist about to fly their drone across an international airport runway is going to say, "Oh wait, I can't do that! I haven't registered my drone". Yeah, that'll work...

No of course that's not what I'm saying, but I guess that's what you get for only quoting part of my post. What I'm saying is that as car use and car crime has developed, so has the infrastructure to deal with criminal activity involving cars. Using your example, if a stolen car was used it would be picked up on an ANPR somewhere along the line, the owner is contacted and, if they haven't already, they report it as stolen. The police then piece together events from the point it was stolen, where it was driven and how it was used, witness statements taken, etc, etc.

I don't know what the permanent solution for criminal drone use is, which is why I don't work for the police, the Government or the CAA, I'm just trying to give a different perspective than "ok, let's ban all drones everywhere forever" and "well, it's pointless trying to stop this happening again because they already broke the law so there's nothing we can do".

 

[DroningOn]

That is all very true but a bank robber isn't going to drive to the robbery in their own car are they? They will either steal a car or use false plates. I agree with you insomuch as there may be a case for some basic training and learning about air laws/rules and maybe take a test to prove that you've understood it. What you're saying is drone registration will stop people flying near airports? So the environmental activist about to fly their drone across an international airport runway is going to say, "Oh wait, I can't do that! I haven't registered my drone". Yeah, that'll work...

This is the Internet! How dare you try to inject common sense into it. Shame on you

 

[Ren57]

but I guess that's what you get for only quoting part of my post.

If you read what I said really really carefully, you'll see that I actually agreed with the majority of your post.....

 

[ataraxia]

If you read what I said really really carefully, you'll see that I actually agreed with the majority of your post.....

I did read what you said really really carefully, but I was responding to the part of your post that firstly misconstrued what I said...

What you're saying is drone registration will stop people flying near airports?

...and was then followed by sarcasm...

So the environmental activist about to fly their drone across an international airport runway is going to say, "Oh wait, I can't do that! I haven't registered my drone". Yeah, that'll work...

...so do you see the potential issue of only responding to part of somebody's post?

The main issue I was pointing out is that it's better to start with something such as registration and then work around it to ensure we catch those who are abusing the system, than to just take the attitude of giving up trying to crack down on criminals. Registration is the first line of defence, not only.

 

[Ren57]

The main issue I was pointing out is that it's better to start with something such as registration and then work around it to ensure we catch those who are abusing the system, than to just take the attitude of giving up trying to crack down on criminals. Registration is the first line of defence, not only.

I get what you are saying believe me. Have you ever heard the term 'Locking the door after the horse has bolted'? Registration works for cars because you can't buy a car with out it being registered. There are millions of drones out there already unregistered. If you bring in a registration system, only the law abiding will bother to register. Those that want to use a drone for any other purpose other than legal, won't register their drone. And even if it was the law to have drone's registered at the time of purchase, it's so easy for anyone to build their own drone, that it makes registration useless. It's just a money making exercise by the authorities that will do nothing in stopping the illegal use of drones. Even if as you said, you ban drones completely, it still won't stop the illegal use of drones. As I said, education is the way forward. A basic test to make sure that a person can operate a drone and a test to make sure that a person understands the rules. But it's probably too late for even this because only the law abiding will bother to take any test. And besides all this, do you really think that the police have the resources to go chasing drone pilots around? They don't even bother to turn up if you get your house or car robbed, you just get a crime number over the phone and told to contact your insurance company....

 

[ataraxia]

I get what you are saying believe me. Have you ever heard the term 'Locking the door after the horse has bolted'? Registration works for cars because you can't buy a car with out it being registered. There are millions of drones out there already unregistered. If you bring in a registration system, only the law abiding will bother to register. Those that want to use a drone for any other purpose other than legal, won't register their drone. And even if it was the law to have drone's registered at the time of purchase, it's so easy for anyone to build their own drone, that it makes registration useless. It's just a money making exercise by the authorities that will do nothing in stopping the illegal use of drones. Even if as you said, you ban drones completely, it still won't stop the illegal use of drones. As I said, education is the way forward. A basic test to make sure that a person can operate a drone and a test to make sure that a person understands the rules. But it's probably too late for even this because only the law abiding will bother to take any test. And besides all this, do you really think that the police have the resources to go chasing drone pilots around? They don't even bother to turn up if you get your house or car robbed, you just get a crime number over the phone and told to contact your insurance company....

The only thing we can do is offer to register a pre-existing drone and saying that it is mandatory and threaten heavy penalties for flying an unregistered drone, yes there are likely to be some that don't get registered, but when drone prevention measures come in and an unregistered drone is captured, that is down to an investigation afterwards. This is why it's important to step up drone counter measures now, so we know we can capture those that flout the law, there may be more drones that follow but a drone is an expensive thing to throw away/lose, there's only so many that any one criminal/group can send up there.

I'm all for basic testing as a minimum, I think there should also be some kind of interim course between being an everyday recreational pilot and the full-blown PfCO qualification, at the moment it's either a free option or a £1,000+ option with no middle ground.

The police don't have the money, staff or resources to handle this, but this is a bit of a separate issue at the moment as the police are very under-resourced, this is a nationwide problem not just a drone problem. Unless somebody is in imminent danger, it doesn't surprise me that in a lot of cases they don't turn up, sometimes they can't even turn up when there is someone in danger as there physically aren't any officers available to respond. The fact is we don't have enough officers to police this country, we've lost over 21,000 officers in the past 8 years, as crime and the general population has increased. I don't think it will be long until the public start taking the law into their own hands on a large scale, but I digress.

More money needs to be invested in both the service as a whole and also anti-drone measures such as those that were (eventually) deployed at Gatwick. I don't think it would take that many kits to be honest, a few dotted around nationally that can be called at a moment's notice should be a great help.

 

[Ren57]

The only thing we can do is offer to register a pre-existing drone and saying that it is mandatory and threaten heavy penalties for flying an unregistered drone, yes there are likely to be some that don't get registered, but when drone prevention measures come in and an unregistered drone is captured, that is down to an investigation afterwards. This is why it's important to step up drone counter measures now, so we know we can capture those that flout the law, there may be more drones that follow but a drone is an expensive thing to throw away/lose, there's only so many that any one criminal/group can send up there.

I'm all for basic testing as a minimum, I think there should also be some kind of interim course between being an everyday recreational pilot and the full-blown PfCO qualification, at the moment it's either a free option or a £1,000+ option with no middle ground.

The police don't have the money, staff or resources to handle this, but this is a bit of a separate issue at the moment as the police are very under-resourced, this is a nationwide problem not just a drone problem. Unless somebody is in imminent danger, it doesn't surprise me that in a lot of cases they don't turn up, sometimes they can't even turn up when there is someone in danger as there physically aren't any officers available to respond. The fact is we don't have enough officers to police this country, we've lost over 21,000 officers in the past 8 years, as crime and the general population has increased. I don't think it will be long until the public start taking the law into their own hands on a large scale, but I digress.

More money needs to be invested in both the service as a whole and also anti-drone measures such as those that were (eventually) deployed at Gatwick. I don't think it would take that many kits to be honest, a few dotted around nationally that can be called at a moment's notice should be a great help.

I actually agree with you on drone counter measures around sensitive areas, I just personally don't believe that drone registration will help. BTW, all my drones are already registered with the CAA, as a full PFCO holder they have to be. As for who pays for counter drone measures, it has been suggested that drone registration fees would pay for it. MMmmm. Airports can afford it, have you ever bought a cup of coffee or a sandwich at an airport?! You need to take out a mortgage! Airports are a money making machine that have a captive audience. Once they have you inside, they can charge you what they like for anything, you're not going anywhere else....

 

[ataraxia]

I actually agree with you on drone counter measures around sensitive areas, I just personally don't believe that drone registration will help. BTW, all my drones are already registered with the CAA, as a full PFCO holder they have to be. As for who pays for counter drone measures, it has been suggested that drone registration fees would pay for it. MMmmm. Airports can afford it, have you ever bought a cup of coffee or a sandwich at an airport?! You need to take out a mortgage! Airports are a money making machine that have a captive audience. Once they have you inside, they can charge you what they like for anything, you're not going anywhere else....

I would happily register my drone but I don't think there is a facility to as a recreational flier, I'm looking at going for the PfCO training at some point this year. It would give me peace of mind that if my drone was somehow stolen and then recovered (presumably after causing problems), it can be returned or at least traced back to me. And agreed on the airport costs, there is no excuse for some of the prices going on in there, let's not forget the parking charges too!

 

[SpinItUp]

Gatwick doesn't need YOU!

 

[FoxhallGH]

Gatwick doesn't need YOU!

Hmm - but what's the £5 Mil' of kit that's been left behind???

 

[ataraxia]

Hmm - but what's the £5 Mil' of kit that's been left behind???

Seeing how the army's system cost £2.6m, I hope it's something special

 

[FoxhallGH]

Seeing how the army's system cost £2.6m, I hope it's something special

That was what I was hoping, as photo's of the non-Mil' equipment put out during the 'fiasco' - show a van with an extendable pole with something in a Thule lockerbox on the end of it ...
You can buy a lot of vans for £5 mil' !!

 

[Ren57]

That was what I was hoping, as photo's of the non-Mil' equipment put out during the 'fiasco' - show a van with an extendable pole with something in a Thule lockerbox on the end of it ...
View attachment 57596 You can buy a lot of vans for £5 mil' !!

Well, it looks like it might not have been anything to do with a rogue drone the whole time. Stuff is slowly leaking out and we may never know the full story. But it appears it might have been a systems hack all along and the police just went with the drone story to try and cover it up a just days before Gatwick was sold to a French operator.
Was Gatwick drone scare a hack just ahead of its sale? - sUAS News - The Business of Drones

 

[FoxhallGH]

Seems crazy though ... There has been ATC system failures in the past that have been announced & labelled as such. It seems strange to go for the 'We can't find the drones!' angle when everyone would have been a bit more understanding if they couldn't find hackers! The nature of system hacks is that they are harder to find and control - so Gatwick would have got more public sympathy if it had admitted a system hack!
Also - there was nothing wrong with the rest of NATS that does the national control of airspace - meaning this was an entirely localised Gatwick problem. So - there are manual methods (paper slips and battens) to handle aircraft on and off the runways at a local level - be-it at a slower rate! - when the systems fail. At least that's what the ATC folks used to train for when I was an Engineer for CAA.

 

[Ren57]

Seems crazy though ... There has been ATC system failures in the past that have been announced & labelled as such. It seems strange to go for the 'We can't find the drones!' angle when everyone would have been a bit more understanding if they couldn't find hackers! The nature of system hacks is that they are harder to find and control - so Gatwick would have got more public sympathy if it had admitted a system hack!
Also - there was nothing wrong with the rest of NATS that does the national control of airspace - meaning this was an entirely localised Gatwick problem. So - there are manual methods (paper slips and battens) to handle aircraft on and off the runways at a local level - be-it at a slower rate! - when the systems fail. At least that's what the ATC folks used to train for when I was an Engineer for CAA.

I think the crucial thing to think about here, is that Gatwick was just days away from being sold. Also Birmingham did suffer similar incident on the 23rd but they held their hands up and said it was a systems failure. Whether the Birmingham airport incident was hack or not, we may never know.... and Birmingham airport wasn't just about to be sold to a foreign operator....

 

[sar104]

Seems crazy though ... There has been ATC system failures in the past that have been announced & labelled as such. It seems strange to go for the 'We can't find the drones!' angle when everyone would have been a bit more understanding if they couldn't find hackers! The nature of system hacks is that they are harder to find and control - so Gatwick would have got more public sympathy if it had admitted a system hack!
Also - there was nothing wrong with the rest of NATS that does the national control of airspace - meaning this was an entirely localised Gatwick problem. So - there are manual methods (paper slips and battens) to handle aircraft on and off the runways at a local level - be-it at a slower rate! - when the systems fail. At least that's what the ATC folks used to train for when I was an Engineer for CAA.

I need a much more convincing source than suasnews.com before giving any credence to such a contrived conspiracy.

 

[Tazbone]

Guys news on all networks home and abroad that Gatwick once again has been closed.
Around 100,000 people stranded and more than 500 planes grounded.
All UK security forces such as MI5 MI6 and the SAS are at the scene.
Reports state something strange was spotted flying above.

This time they have proof... A picture taken by a 7yr kid.