More tariffs questions

[Bad Santa]

Re: Your Canada neighbors.
I wonder if the border crossing can tell the difference between a "new" drone and one that's a little dirty.
*wink wink*

 

[msinger]

I'm a US citizen. The imposition of across-the-board tariffs on all imports from almost every nation on Earth, including our two neighbors and trade partners, seems senseless. I'm certainly willing to surrender that view if provided with facts and explanations that don't defy simple reason while hiding the cost of the tariffs.

As another US citizen, I agree with all of that.

I think what we're missing is the actual strategy that will go along with any tariffs that are here to stay long-term. If history has taught us anything, it's quite obvious that tariffs aren't imposed by themselves. Because on their own, they'd do nothing but harm nearly everyone involved.

Meanwhile, many people from other countries (lots of interest here) and other US citizens are dead focused on just making prices low for themselves. While I don't understand the plan since it has never been shared, I'm willing to let things play out until the point where all of the details are revealed to the public and they truly don't make sense. And by that revealing, I’m not talking about whatever foreign tariff experts assume or what the mainstream media pushes daily.

I was seriously considering buying a Mavic 4 Pro before the president made it clear that it was going to cost me almost 2.5 times what DJI is willing to sell it for

Same! But we still haven't seen any official pricing or a confirmed release date. DJI already pushed back the release date according to the previous leaks, so maybe they are holding off until things are "back to normal".

Tariffs of 145% (or more) aren't something the average US citizen can realistically absorb on drones (or any products) coming from China. So the idea that these tariffs will be imposed and everything will simply go on as usual doesn't seem like a possible outcome. There has to be more going on behind the scenes. And no, I'm not referring to things like waiting around for a new DJI competitor to arrive and take over in five years (an odd, but popular storyline these days).

 

[Mrktn]

As another US citizen, I agree with all of that.

I think what we're missing is the actual strategy that will go along with any tariffs that are here to stay long-term. If history has taught us anything, it's quite obvious that tariffs aren't imposed by themselves. Because on their own, they'd do nothing but harm nearly everyone involved.

Meanwhile, many people from other countries (lots of interest here) and other US citizens are dead focused on just making prices low for themselves. While I don't understand the plan since it has never been shared, I'm willing to let things play out until the point where all of the details are revealed to the public and they truly don't make sense. And by that revealing, I’m not talking about whatever foreign tariff experts assume or what the mainstream media pushes daily.



Same! But we still haven't seen any official pricing or a confirmed release date. DJI already pushed back the release date according to the previous leaks, so maybe they are holding off until things are "back to normal".

Tariffs of 145% (or more) aren't something the average US citizen can realistically absorb on drones (or any products) coming from China. So the idea that these tariffs will be imposed and everything will simply go on as usual doesn't seem like a possible outcome. There has to be more going on behind the scenes. And no, I'm not referring to things like waiting around for a new DJI competitor to arrive and take over in five years (an odd, but popular storyline these days).

Have to say this is well put. The next few days and weeks will be critical. This of course doesn’t just affect drones..

I wonder if @vicmoss has had any form of communication back from President Trump, about his argument on imposing tariffs on drones to the USA.

 

[Zbip57]

My point was that your usual schtick is to claim all tariffs (except Canada’s tariffs) hurt everyone.

Tariffs certainly do hurt everyone, including Canada's tariffs.

My point was that targeted tariffs, aimed specifically at certain commodities, are useful to protect a domestic industry. For example steel production. Canada and the USA both produce steel. If China starts dumping cheap steel into your country, it risks collapsing your own steel industry if everyone instead starts buying the cheaper Chinese steel.

But it still hurts, because your consumers are denied the opportunity to purchase a less expensive product, forced instead to continue buying your own more expensive steel. Ideally, your own domestic producers should find a way to produce similarly less expensive steel. But it generally comes down to the fact that North American workers expect to earn a higher wage than Chinese workers.

Without tariffs to discourage purchasing the cheaper Chinese steel, your domestic steel production will collapse, forcing many into unemployment which has further detrimental effects on your country's economy when those unemployed stop paying taxes. So tariffs used to artificially protect an existing industry might be a better solution than allowing your economy to suffer, even if it means you're paying more for that steel than you should be.

The USA imposed 25% tariffs, contrary to the existing USMCA Free Trade Agreement, on Canadian imports based on an entirely invented "emergency", a presumed threat to the USA's National Security, of Canada supposedly flooding your country with fentanyl and illegal immigrants (emptying our prisons and insane asylums...). Canada retaliated by imposing targeted tariffs of our own. Both countries are suffering as a result.

Just because you can't explain another country's reasoning, or it doesn't personally make sense to you, doesn't mean it's senseless.

Tariffs make sense in limited cases. A blanket 10% tariff imposed by the USA on EVERY country in the world, including an island inhabited only by penguins, makes ZERO sense. Additional tariffs calculated solely on the balance of US trade deficit/surplus makes ZERO sense. Imposing such tariffs on countries with which the USA actually enjoys a trade surplus makes ZERO sense. Announcing those tariffs as "Liberation Day", driving the stock markets into the toilet, only to announce the next day the removal or delay of some of those tariffs makes ZERO sense (unless that market manipulation was intentional designed to make your billionaire friends even richer). Claiming the tariffs are only a negotiating tool, part of the "Art of the Deal", to force countries to come begging to the US, "200 deals" so far, makes ZERO sense when the White House won't name a single country that has accepted to make such a deal.

But most of all, it makes absolutely ZERO sense at all that the White House is telling Amazon that, "showing consumers how much tariffs raised prices on certain goods 'is a hostile and political act',.

 

[mavic3usa]

Tariffs certainly do hurt everyone, including Canada's tariffs.

I noticed that you have mostly avoided talking about reciprocal tariffs which is different than ordinary tariffs that you constantly describe.

 

[Zbip57]

I think what we're missing is the actual strategy [...]
I don't understand the plan since it has never been shared, [...]
I'm willing to let things play out until the point where all of the details are revealed to the public [...]

The White House said, showing consumers how much tariffs raised prices on certain goods "is a hostile and political act".

Yet you think the details will ever be revealed to the public?

And by that revealing, I’m not talking about whatever foreign tariff experts assume[...]
There has to be more going on behind the scenes.

I hope you don't think that I'm pretending to be a "foreign tariff expert". I'm certainly no such thing. But anyone with any brains at all can look up for themselves on Google, "How do tariffs work?" It's quite obvious that it isn't China who pays that %145 tariff.

The reason the stock markets are tanking and your economy is crashing is because NOBODY understands the actual strategy, the plan, the details, of whatever more is going on behind the scenes, because none of it makes any sense.

 

[Zbip57]

I noticed that you have mostly avoided talking about reciprocal tariffs which is different than ordinary tariffs that you constantly describe.

Google, "How do reciprocal tariffs work?"

Start with the AI Overview right at the top, click the "show more" and you'll see:

"Impact:
These tariffs can lead to increased costs for consumers, potentially putting jobs at risk and impacting the competitiveness of North American businesses."

 

[mavic3usa]

Google, "How do reciprocal tariffs work?"

Start with the AI Overview right at the top, click the "show more" and you'll see:

"Impact:
These tariffs can lead to increased costs for consumers, potentially putting jobs at risk and impacting the competitiveness of North American businesses."

What's the difference between tariffs and reciprocal tariffs?

 

[Zbip57]

What's the difference between tariffs and reciprocal tariffs?

Like I said, I'm definitely not a "foreign tariff expert". Perhaps some of your own domestic experts could chime in here.

I just ask Google, "What's the difference between tariffs and reciprocal tariffs?"

More importantly, what's the difference (if any) between reciprocal tariffs vs retaliatory tariffs?

The USA imposed a 25% tariff on everything coming from Canada, "we don't need their lumber, we don't need their cars, we don't need their oil..."

In retaliation, Canada imposed tariffs on certain targeted items that we import from the USA.

It hurts both countries because it makes those imports more expensive for us to purchase, and it hurts the other country when they can no longer sell those too expensive products to us.

 

[Max Headroom]

What's the difference between tariffs and reciprocal tariffs?

What is 'Reciprocal Tariff'​

Reciprocal Tariff: Definition​

A reciprocal tariff is a tax or trade restriction that one country places on another in response to similar actions taken by that country. The idea behind reciprocal tariffs is to create balance in trade between nations. If one country raises tariffs on goods from another, the affected country might respond by imposing its own tariffs on imports from the first country. This response is meant to protect local businesses, preserve jobs, and fix trade imbalances.

Reciprocal tariffs can lead to a back-and-forth increase in trade barriers, potentially resulting in a trade war that negatively impacts both economies. Such situations can disrupt supply chains, raise prices for consumers, and slow down economic growth. It is important for countries to communicate openly and work together to settle trade issues instead of turning to reciprocal tariffs.
More here - What is Reciprocal Tariff? Definition of Reciprocal Tariff, Reciprocal Tariff Meaning - The Economic Times

 

[hank970]

As another US citizen, I agree with all of that.

I think what we're missing is the actual strategy that will go along with any tariffs that are here to stay long-term. If history has taught us anything, it's quite obvious that tariffs aren't imposed by themselves. Because on their own, they'd do nothing but harm nearly everyone involved.

The strategy is Ready, Fire, Aim, now exemplified by various announcements that we'll be walking back this and that outrageous tariff because our foreign trade partners aren't and won't be buckling in response to what they perceive to be loud bullying. It appears to me that our powers-that-be once again failed to consider the potential ramifications of their sweeping pronouncements. Hence, a new 90-day pause, followed by exemptions for one special interest after another -- most recently relief for domestic automakers who source many components from outside the USA.

I'm not qualified to comment on the veracity of claims about trade inequities but suspect that the so-called rip-offs that prompted and animate this fiasco were exaggerated. It's much easier to make such claims than to substantiate them. That said, if there really are inequities, then a wiser strategy would have been to quietly engage each foreign trade partner in serious discussions about specific concerns on a case-by-case basis before establishing and publicly announcing precisely targeted and calibrated tariffs -- exercises of substance and style. What's apparently lost on this administration is that international trade is a very complex matter, and one size does not fit all, particularly when some of our trade partners control and can withhold strategic materials we desperately need. If you're China, for example, which controls much of the world's supply of rare-earth minerals, and you can buy soybeans from Brazil instead of from farmers in the USA, you're not going to blink. Unlike the USA, which has a notoriously short attention span (two years between congressional elections and only four years between presidential elections), many competing nations take a much longer and nuanced view of their options.

 

[mavic3usa]

It is really rather complex to talk about tariffs as if it's just one thing and nothing else. Who pays the tariffs isn't a thing unless you know the how's and why's. This is how complicated the math could be:

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[Zbip57]

Who pays the tariffs isn't a thing unless you know the how's and why's.

Wow. That video was a whole lot of "we don't know anything and will just have to wait".

The only thing I got out of that was, "We're seeing a lot of people respond to our employee pricing..."

That means, people who work for Ford are being offered special pricing to encourage more sales of Ford vehicles, because you're likely to lose your jobs once everyone else [without employee pricing] discovers they can no longer afford to buy new F150 pickup trucks.

 

[Zbip57]

The biggest problem with this tariff war is the chaos created by the unpredictability. If we could rely on anything said by this administration to be actual truth and cast in stone, then companies could make plans on how to cope and the economy will eventually stabilize.

Tariffs were announced as "permanent and non-negotiable". Okay, so to avoid tariff penalties we should plan to shut down our foreign factories and build factories inside the USA instead. That'll take years and billions of dollars, but we better get started on doing that...

Oh wait! The very next day the administration changes it's mind. The tariffs are no longer permanent and non-negotiable, instead we're postponing everything for a couple of months while we invite 200 countries from around the world to come beg for visitation with your ruler [bring money] and "let's make a deal".

145% tariff on EVERYTHING coming from China! Build factories here, to produce everything within America instead.

Oh wait, in the meantime, that'll mean every cellphone and other electronic device that Americans buy will suddenly cost consumers 145% more. We can't have that. So it's 145% tariff on EVERYTHING imported from China, EXCEPT cellphones and electronics. We'll exempt those, despite that being the biggest import sector, so why would anyone build a factory to make those here now, and where will the billions and billions and billions to make America rich from tariffs come from instead?

It is really rather complex to talk about tariffs as if it's just one thing and nothing else.

But we were told, over and over again, it's all perfectly simple. "Tariff" is the most beautiful word in the dictionary, and it will make America so rich that no one will ever need to pay income tax anymore. "Groceries", what a quaint word, from someone who has probably never set foot inside a grocery store.

 

[msinger]

But most of all, it makes absolutely ZERO sense at all that the White House is telling Amazon that, "showing consumers how much tariffs raised prices on certain goods 'is a hostile and political act',.

I missed the “hostile and political act” debacle. That said, I should admit that I don't usually follow what the mainstream news is pushing. I tend to spend my time doing my own research instead.

If you were a US citizen, you'd know that shoppers here generally don't care about seeing a detailed breakdown of a product's pricing. Whether shopping in person or online, people are used to seeing just the total price. The markup, import costs, business expenses, and now tariffs aren't things most Americans think about or expect to see itemized. So the idea that shoppers suddenly want a line item showing the tariff amount is a completely unrealistic take.

In addition, most US retail systems likely aren't even built to handle this kind of detailed pricing display. Implementing it would likely require significant software development, and then sellers would have to take on the burden of calculating and reporting all that data. It sounds like a massive waste of time with no real benefit.

I understand this might be more common in other countries. But just because something works elsewhere doesn't mean it will (or should) work in the US.

As for Amazon (or other companies), they should do whatever they want to do with their business. And I'm suspecting most companies will choose to do nothing since this all seems like it's more trouble than it's worth.

I hope you don't think that I'm pretending to be a "foreign tariff expert". I'm certainly no such thing. But anyone with any brains at all can look up for themselves on Google, "How do tariffs work?" It's quite obvious that it isn't China who pays that %145 tariff.

My apologies if it came across like I was talking about you. That was not my intention. It seems like a lot (all?) of what you've shared here and in other threads lines up with what the mainstream news is pushing. And since you don't live in the US, I'm not sure how you'd be able to know if any of it is actually true. That's why I have a hard time taking it too seriously. It feels like you're just repeating what others are saying.

 

[msinger]

The strategy is Ready, Fire, Aim, now exemplified by various announcements that we'll be walking back this and that outrageous tariff because our foreign trade partners aren't and won't be buckling in response to what they perceive to be loud bullying

Yeah, this is definitely one possible outcome. I don't think the general public has seen more than the tip of the iceberg yet, so it's hard to fully grasp what's happening this early on. But if this really is how things are unfolding, or how they will unfold, we’ll know based on how it all turns out.

 

[msinger]

To get more back on the topic of this thread, here's a short video (from someone who actually pays tariffs) explaining why the US hasn't really felt the impact of the tariffs yet:

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[Max Headroom]

I googled this earlier and found there are stores that will ship to America how much extra would you have to pay to buy one here in the UK?

Several UK-based drone stores ship internationally, including to the United States. Stores like Flying Tech, Quadcopters.co.uk, Heliguy, SwellPro-UK, and Drone Safe Store offer shipping to various countries, including the US.

 

[mavic3usa]

I googled this earlier and found there are stores that will ship to America how much extra would you have to pay to buy one here in the UK?

As mentioned earlier, a product shipping from the UK does not convert the country of origin for the goods inside the box from China to the UK. When those goods hit America, those finished goods are made in China and will be subject to rules and regulations controlling where they are made from, not where they are shipped from.

I think there is some confusion where Chinese manufacturers have moved their factories from China to nearby locations such as Vietnam or even Hong Kong as a way to get around this. For certain items where you can stockpile your raw goods in inventory in other countries, this is also effective.

But if there is a customs block/hold on DJI drones, it is possible officials are looking for goods shipped from China and DJI drones shipped from the UK may be more successful in getting past customs depending on how they are labeled. Since no one knows for sure the process or procedures and it's always changing on a daily basis, it's impossible to plan for anything.

I have ordered various goods from the UK/EU and it's not super expensive; certainly would pay for a drone from there if necessary.

 

[Zbip57]

No worries. None of this is intended to be personal (or "political"), but you nailed a few critical items.

#1.

I tend to spend my time doing my own research instead.

I wish everyone would do that! It's not difficult. If you don't know how to use Google (or any other preferred search engine), just ask your grand-kids to show you how to do it.

#2

If you were a US citizen, you'd know that shoppers here generally don't care about seeing a detailed breakdown of a product's pricing. Whether shopping in person or online, people are used to seeing just the total price.

I'm not going to touch that one, other than to say [many?] Americans really aren't any more [or less] ignorant than citizens of other countries.

The pumps at our Cdn gas stations display only the cost/litre, then how many litres are being pumped and the final cost. But the pump then prints out a receipt breaking out the various tax amounts included.

Another funny story, re: ignorance...

One of my first jobs during high school was pumping gas at a station on the highway, which was the most direct shortcut route through Ontario for American tourists travelling between Buffalo/ Niagara Falls to Detroit. This was way back in the days long before Canada converted to metric units and still sold gasoline by the gallon.

You wouldn't believe how many Americans were shocked and bitterly complained about the huge price difference between what we charged for gasoline versus how much less it cost in the USA. Apparently many Americans were completely unaware that there is an exchange rate difference between Canadian vs American dollars. $1 Cdn was worth something like $0.75 US, so an item that cost US$0.75 back home would cost $1Cdn here. Plus, the Imperial Gallon used in Canada is 1.2 times the size of a US gallon. An Imperial gallon is 4.55 litres versus only 3.78 litres in a US gallon.

And, they were outraged when I'd accept their US dollars at par and hand them back their change in Canadian dollars. I'm a gas station, not a bank, eh?

Ignorance is not something to be proud of. It's an opportunity for exploitation, and it's one of the reasons why American tourists are held in such high esteem throughout the world.

#3

In addition, most US retail systems likely aren't even built to handle this kind of detailed pricing display. Implementing it would likely require significant software development, and then sellers would have to take on the burden of calculating and reporting all that data. It sounds like a massive waste of time with no real benefit.

No, no, no, hold on right there. You live in Pennsylvania, right? Pennsylvania has a sales tax, doesn't it? It's even a different sales tax depending on which county within Pennsylvania.

According to Google, "The Pennsylvania sales tax rate is 6 percent. By law, a 1 percent local tax is added to purchases made in Allegheny County, and 2 percent local tax is added to purchases made in Philadelphia."

Any retail seller is already required by law to "take on the burden of calculating and reporting all that data." Whether or not they choose to display the amount of sales tax included in the total price on your receipt, they already must calculate that data and they must report [and pay] that collected tax to your government. It's you, the consumer, who pays the tax. The seller collects and passes it to the gov't.

#4

I understand this might be more common in other countries. But just because something works elsewhere doesn't mean it will (or should) work in the US.

Seriously?

#5

As for Amazon (or other companies), they should do whatever they want to do with their business. And I'm suspecting most companies will choose to do nothing since this all seems like it's more trouble than it's worth.

A 145% increase in cost certainly will be noticed, even by Americans who, "generally don't care about seeing a detailed breakdown of a product's pricing"!

It will cause a LOT of trouble when [if] it eventually takes effect.

#6

My apologies if it came across like I was talking about you. That was not my intention.

Same here. It's not personal. I'm just fascinated by how it's even possible for Americans to see things so completely differently than Canadians, when we both have access to using the same Google searches.

#7

It seems like a lot (all?) of what you've shared here and in other threads lines up with what the mainstream news is pushing. And since you don't live in the US, I'm not sure how you'd be able to know if any of it is actually true. That's why I have a hard time taking it too seriously. It feels like you're just repeating what others are saying.

Some people actually believe that Fox News qualifies as, "mainstream media".

Fact-checking, using any internet search engine, is really not difficult and requires very little effort.