North Carolina bans aerial mapping without a surveying license

[MS Coast]

Thanks for making my point. I guess you realize that needing a permit to take drone photos for real estate isn't so far fetched and is within the realm of possibility.

So, your point was that nations regulate certain activities to ensure that the public is served by qualified people?

You don't need a pharmacist license to drive your car to walgreens to get your OTC medicine. It's called overreach.

The point of this absurdity completely evades me.


I get your points - government is bad and you have insights into the coming cataclysms that most of us lack.

Over and out.

 

[moldorf]

Not a constitutional issue if you’re surveying without a license. You can’t practice medicine without a license, you can’t practice law without a license, you can’t practice engineering without a license…….theres a lot of them. They’re all regulated to protect the public as they all provide a service to the public.

can't drive a car without a license either...or insurance

 

[mavic3usa]

can't drive a car without a license either...or insurance

commercial drone pilot has a (federal) part 107 license and drone insurance, is that not enough?

 

[anotherlab]

commercial drone pilot has a (federal) part 107 license and drone insurance, is that not enough?

No, that was not enough in the eyes of the state of NC.

The Part 107 license and insurance over the actual operation of the drone. The issue that NC has was that the operator was providing, in their view, surveying services without being licensed to do so.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't that he was not well served by his legal counsel. There was nothing in his case where the First Amendment to the Constitution would have been an effective legal defense. He should have fought this with the argument that he was not supplying surveying services, assuming that was the case. The question is whether or not what was provided would be considered surveying services. How that is determined could affect drone operators in other jurisdictions that offer similar services.

If he had gone to the site and used ground-based equipment to provide the same or similar results to the client as what he had provided from his drone and the software, would that have been legal without being licensed? Was his disclaimer that "the maps weren't meant to replace proper surveys needed for mortgages, title insurance and land-use applications" sufficient enough?

If that disclaimer was prominently displayed on the website and the contract, then (IANAL), the onus is on the customer to understand that the service being provided was not provided by a licensed surveyor. That would have been a better legal argument to use.

 

[mavic3usa]

No, that was not enough in the eyes of the state of NC.

The Part 107 license and insurance over the actual operation of the drone. The issue that NC has was that the operator was providing, in their view, surveying services without being licensed to do so.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't that he was not well served by his legal counsel. There was nothing in his case where the First Amendment to the Constitution would have been an effective legal defense. He should have fought this with the argument that he was not supplying surveying services, assuming that was the case. The question is whether or not what was provided would be considered surveying services. How that is determined could affect drone operators in other jurisdictions that offer similar services.

If he had gone to the site and used ground-based equipment to provide the same or similar results to the client as what he had provided from his drone and the software, would that have been legal without being licensed? Was his disclaimer that "the maps weren't meant to replace proper surveys needed for mortgages, title insurance and land-use applications" sufficient enough?

If that disclaimer was prominently displayed on the website and the contract, then (IANAL), the onus is on the customer to understand that the service being provided was not provided by a licensed surveyor. That would have been a better legal argument to use.

I'm not the right person to argue the merits of this case but yeah, I get it. If I spend a ton of money and time learning how to do something, I definitely wouldn't want someone to go to Best Buy and purchase a drone and then just fly the drone (using a part 107) to let the drone do all the work. I would do my best to stop him and at least try to make him do more than just "fly the drone." Helps when the government has your back.

 

[Chip]

The issue that NC has was that the operator was providing, in their view, surveying services without being licensed to do so.

Yes, exactly.

If he had gone to the site and used ground-based equipment to provide the same or similar results to the client as what he had provided from his drone and the software, would that have been legal without being licensed? Was his disclaimer that "the maps weren't meant to replace proper surveys needed for mortgages, title insurance and land-use applications" sufficient enough?

Great questions. The disclaimer is good but it may still confuse the average consumer who just sees the bright lines superimposed on a cool aerial image and assume that is where the boundary lines are. If that is permitted, then anyone could provide a similar service using Parlay images superimposed on a google earth image. The Parlay disclaimer is very similar to the one at issue here in the survey case. If interested, check out link below.

Property Lines & Parcel Data Layer for Google Earth

Property Lines & Parcel Data for Google Earth

Enhance Google Earth with PARLAY 2.0, layering parcel data for 158.8M U.S. properties. Access property lines, boundaries, and 123M building footprints.

reportallusa.com

 

[anotherlab]

Yes, exactly.

Great questions. The disclaimer is good but it may still confuse the average consumer who just sees the bright lines superimposed on a cool aerial image and assume that is where the boundary lines are. If that is permitted, then anyone could provide a similar service using Parlay images superimposed on a google earth image. The Parlay disclaimer is very similar to the one at issue here in the survey case. If interested, check out link below.

Property Lines & Parcel Data Layer for Google Earth

Property Lines & Parcel Data for Google Earth

Enhance Google Earth with PARLAY 2.0, layering parcel data for 158.8M U.S. properties. Access property lines, boundaries, and 123M building footprints.

reportallusa.com

There is a difference in scope between PARLAY's disclaimer and what the operator's disclaimer presumably covered.

PARLAY's disclaimer (see "Accuracy of Information in the TOS) covers the usage of the tool by the user. In the drone operator's situation, he is providing a service that would be typically provided by a licensed surveyor. In his state, that is illegal. IANAL and I don't know if his disclaimer provided any room for him to provide that service.

As a layperson, if I gave someone legal advice, that would be considered malpractice by the American Bar Association. In my state (NY), it could be considered to be the Unlicensed Practice of Law and that would be a Class E Felony. It's the same principle for any licensed profession.

Ideally, there should be a NC license for drone surveying that would have a simpler path to obtain than a full surveying license. In addition to the drone insurance, the drone operator would carry liability insurance to cover the surveying services provided. In place of that, the drone operator should have partnered with a licensed surveyor and have that person sign off on the surveying services provided.

If you ran a business and used surveying information from someone without a license, then it's on you if you make a mistake based on that information. For example, if you use that information to determine your property boundaries and then cut down trees on someone else's property based on faulty boundary data, that is going to be an expensive mistake. The operator's drone insurance would not cover that.

If you had used a licensed professional, their liability insurance should defer the costs of remedying that situation. Take that with a grain of salt. In addition to not being a lawyer, I'm especially not a tree law lawyer.

 

[moldorf]

commercial drone pilot has a (federal) part 107 license and drone insurance, is that not enough?

enough for what? If I have a driver's license that doesn't mean I can drive an 18-wheeler legally, on the roads, with all the other traffic. I need a CDL as well

you're acting this is some onerous overreach regulation that a NC Court said was a legal restriction. It's not. Survey is a profession that requires skills and training...and certification. I do not think it's illogical to say that paid mapping services in the state falls under Survey licensing

but I'm not going to get into a debate with you. This is not the first thread I've seen you derail with numerous redundant posts advocating your world view, over and over and over

 

[mavic3usa]

enough for what? If I have a driver's license that doesn't mean I can drive an 18-wheeler legally, on the roads, with all the other traffic. I need a CDL as well

you're acting this is some onerous overreach regulation that a NC Court said was a legal restriction. It's not. Survey is a profession that requires skills and training...and certification. I do not think it's illogical to say that paid mapping services in the state falls under Survey licensing

but I'm not going to get into a debate with you. This is not the first thread I've seen you derail with numerous redundant posts advocating your world view, over and over and over

49 states agreed with me, 1 state agrees with you but yeah, that's hardly a world view.

And absolutely you can, if you obtain a driver's license from the state that permits you to operate an 18-wheeler then you absolutely can drive it on the highway; you just can't commercially haul stuff in it without a cdl. But I would imagine the license that you are issued doesn't allow you to drive that class of vehicle. Are there different classes of part 107 licenses issued by the FAA? No because that would be a scam in the drone world.

Finally I would like to add, no disrespect but you are missing the point of the court case.

 

[anotherlab]

49 states agreed with me, 1 state agrees with you but yeah, that's hardly a world view.

I don't know how valid or current this information is, but GA and CA both consider surveying by drone to be civil engineering and it requires a civil engineer or surveyor's license for commercial use. If you dig into the state laws, state by state, I think you will find that you are not going to find 49 states that allow unlicensed surveying to be sold as a service.

The 18-wheeler analogy applies here, but probably not in the way that you intended. You don't need a CDL (in the US) to drive a commercial truck for personal use. You do need a CDL to use that truck for commercial purposes, just like you would need a surveying license to offer surveying services.

This is not about using a drone. This is about not having a license for a service that requires a license.

 

[mavic3usa]

I don't know how valid or current this information is, but GA and CA both consider surveying by drone to be civil engineering and it requires a civil engineer or surveyor's license for commercial use. If you dig into the state laws, state by state, I think you will find that you are not going to find 49 states that allow unlicensed surveying to be sold as a service.

The 18-wheeler analogy applies here, but probably not in the way that you intended. You don't need a CDL (in the US) to drive a commercial truck for personal use. You do need a CDL to use that truck for commercial purposes, just like you would need a surveying license to offer surveying services.

This is not about using a drone. This is about not having a license for a service that requires a license.

What about being a teacher, does it require a state license to be a teacher and therefore anyone that tries to "teach" can be told to stop it unless you get a license from the state first?

Do Uber drivers need a CDL in order to do commercial work like transporting people for hire using their vehicles?

Can I advertise and sell drone maps and photos if I did 0% surveying myself and the drone did 100% of the work if I tell the buyer exact that?

Obviously I cannot practice law in the state unless I get a law license so does that mean I cannot tell another person what I know or think about the law? Can I post an ad in the newspaper claiming I can't represent you in court or file papers with the government on your behalf like a lawyer firm would do but I can give you the paperwork to help you file your own will or start your own divorce or tell you my opinion about a recent incident you were involved in.

I think it's one thing for a state to declare something to be valid or invalid depending on whether you have a license or not but it's different to tell someone what they can or cannot do without a license. Bottom line is how good are your lawyers and how much fighting for the cause do you want to do?

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[Chip]

Can I post an ad in the newspaper claiming I can't represent you in court or file papers with the government on your behalf like a lawyer firm would do but I can give you the paperwork to help you file your own will or start your own divorce or tell you my opinion about a recent incident you were involved in.

Maybe but its a slippery slope because you may not give legal advice or misrepresent your very narrow scope of experience or services.

I think it's one thing for a state to declare something to be valid or invalid depending on whether you have a license or not but it's different to tell someone what they can or cannot do without a license.

You would have to explain this one further. The government tells people all the time what they cannot do without a license. Everything from hunting and fishing to exotic dancing and tattooing.

Bottom line is how good are your lawyers and how much fighting for the cause do you want to do?

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The YT video shows how a drone can create an aerial map. It does not explain how to create an aerial map which accurately depicts property boundaries which I am thinking is a bright line not to cross.

According to the article, however, the only argument raised is First Amendment right to free speech. That is a tricky case to make for several reasons including we are talking about "commercial" not political speech so it has less protection.

 

[mavic3usa]

Maybe but its a slippery slope because you may not give legal advice or misrepresent your very narrow scope of experience or services.

I agree so he can provide his drone services as long as he doesn't misrepresent his experiences or services?

You would have to explain this one further. The government tells people all the time what they cannot do without a license. Everything from hunting and fishing to exotic dancing and tattooing.

Only in a commercial capacity or where they have a valid interest. The government does it all the time and it's more like a permit where you have to go to the government, pay a fee, and they had you a piece of paper to do something. You get to do it within the rules, for a certain period, etc. Is that what happens in NC, you pay the survey's fee, get your permit, and then start selling your goods? Or is there a long list of requirements and hurdles and training and schooling and a bunch of obstacles designed to proficiency qualify you to do something? When you open a tattoo shop, do you have to make a few tattoo to prove you're good at it or let the government see what you plan to offer so they approve it? I think it's ok to make sure the place is clean and safe and check zoning, etc....those are in the government and public interest. But that isn't what is going on in the drone world. They told him to stop telling the business in NC that he can give them maps using a drone. In order to tell businesses you can give them maps using a drone, you have to get permission from the government. Do I have to get an exotic dancing license to advertise in the yellow pages? Are you suggesting that a person cannot do what you see in the YT video (fly, download, create) and crank out a map unless they have permission from the government? If the government has a case that the product being produced is problematic, they should take the steps to remedy that but not tell you to quit doing what you are doing. Maybe telling the business what they can and cannot use would be better than telling the citizens what they can and cannot do.

The YT video shows how a drone can create an aerial map. It does not explain how to create an aerial map which accurately depicts property boundaries which I am thinking is a bright line not to cross.

If one day, the maps are just as good as anyone else's map, do you think NC will be ok with it? I think we know the answer to that.

According to the article, however, the only argument raised is First Amendment right to free speech. That is a tricky case to make for several reasons including we are talking about "commercial" not political speech so it has less protection.

If that's the case, we have nothing to worry about. If the court rules they don't have a 1st amendment right, perhaps there are other rights they do have that would permit this. I am not as familiar with all the details of the case because it's been many years and the details are scarce. But something tells me the case is more involved than what we read in the papers. I think we know what this is all about, we just won't say it aloud. Same thing happened when GPS came out or when computers and calculators first came out. Technology has a way of....but it cannot be stopped.

In general, I am not a fan of the government having licenses and permits for everything we do. Some things, ok. I understand the need to make sure everyone is safe and when it comes to commercial activity, there's a case to be made. I have concern when the government won't evolve. For example: You need a license to be a teacher. Personally I think that should mean if you want to be a state-approved teacher then you need a state license but it doesn't mean if you want to "teach" you need to get permission from the state. Perhaps the state says in order to teach at public schools, you need a license. Fine. But what happens if I never graduated high school and I pull together an algebra course and I post it online for school kids to learn for $1 per session while I sit at home and make algebra video. Will I get a criminal cease and desist letter from the state ordering me to pull down my videos because I don't have a state teacher's license?

 

[anotherlab]

I agree so he can provide his drone services as long as he doesn't misrepresent his experiences or services?

That is the point. Everything else is moot. You can't offer surveying services in the state of NC without a license. With or without a drone.

When you open a tattoo shop, do you have to make a few tattoo to prove you're good at it or let the government see what you plan to offer so they approve it? I think it's ok to make sure the place is clean and safe and check zoning, etc....those are in the government and public interest.

Most states do require a tattoo artist to register and provide proof of training.

"You will be required to provide bloodborne pathogen training for all your skilled artists, and you will need a written plan showing how your business will follow all tattooing regulations related to potentially infectious materials."

They told him to stop telling the business in NC that he can give them maps using a drone. In order to tell businesses you can give them maps using a drone, you have to get permission from the government.

That he was using a drone was never the point of all of this.

Do I have to get an exotic dancing license to advertise in the yellow pages?.

What does that even mean and how is it relevant here?

Are you suggesting that a person cannot do what you see in the YT video (fly, download, create) and crank out a map unless they have permission from the government?

No one here has suggested that.

If the government has a case that the product being produced is problematic, they should take the steps to remedy that but not tell you to quit doing what you are doing. Maybe telling the business what they can and cannot use would be better than telling the citizens what they can and cannot do.

That is what the government did (state of NC) by preventing the drone operator from providing surveying services without a license.

If the court rules they don't have a 1st amendment right, perhaps there are other rights they do have that would permit this.

That was the mistake the operator made, this was never a First Amendment issue. He should (my opinion, IANAL) have made the argument the disclaimer was enough to distinguish what he offered from what would be a licensed service.

For example: You need a license to be a teacher. Personally I think that should mean if you want to be a state-approved teacher then you need a state license but it doesn't mean if you want to "teach" you need to get permission from the state. Perhaps the state says in order to teach at public schools, you need a license. Fine. But what happens if I never graduated high school and I pull together an algebra course and I post it online for school kids to learn for $1 per session while I sit at home and make algebra video. Will I get a criminal cease and desist letter from the state ordering me to pull down my videos because I don't have a state teacher's license?

If you sell an online video that teaches algebra, that will not grant high school or college credit for taking that class. If you advertised that taking your course would satisfy the GED requirement for High School algebra in some state, then you could expect to have someone from that state come after you.

In general, I am not a fan of the government having licenses and permits for everything we do. Some things, ok. I understand the need to make sure everyone is safe and when it comes to commercial activity, there's a case to be made.

That is the point of all this. The state of NC requires that to offer surveying services, you must be licensed. I posted earlier that it was the responsibility of the customer to verify that the surveyor was both licensed and insured.

People arguing how bad this is for the drone operator have missed the point of that drone operator not having liability insurance. His drone insurance would cover him if the drone caused property damage or injured someone. It would not cover any mistake made by the analysis of the data that had been collected by the drone. That's why you want to hire a licensed surveyor, for the legal and financial protection in the case that a surveyor makes an error, and that error causes the customer to make a costly mistake.

 

[mavic3usa]

...and of course, Google reads all my posts and puts the related YT videos in my feed; this is interesting (not exactly apples to apples but....you get the point):

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[Chip]

Requiring floral arrangers to be licensed is a far cry from requiring real property surveyors to be licensed. Private property rights are important and determining boundaries is the province of specialized experts for good reason. I must ask how you would likely react if your neighbor started building a fence through your yard one day and when you ask on whose authority he says some guy with a drone made an aerial map for me and discovered that you were encroaching.

 

[chadCO]

Communist countries punish everyone for the transgressions of the few, its the hallmark of failed government.
The clowns aren't actually able to determine the criminal from the innocent and treat everyone the same.

 

[anotherlab]

Communist countries punish everyone for the transgressions of the few, its the hallmark of failed government.
The clowns aren't actually able to determine the criminal from the innocent and treat everyone the same.

It's called the rule of "this is why we can't have nice things". It has nothing to do with Communism.

 

[mavic3usa]

Since I have been unable to adequately explain or decidedly convince anyone that excessive government regulations are a burden to any industry and especially the drone industry in America, perhaps this article will shed some light. Unnecessary, expensive over-regulation from our government is the number one killer of growth and innovation and competitiveness for the consumer drone market.

This is just one example (not my example) why we need less government regulations, not more: Small Drone Makers Face Major Hurdles In Remote ID Compliance

 

[Dmcvey]

Pull up and read post #7. direct answer from NC Survey Board. It only applies if you are marking property boundaries. 90% of drone work does not meet definition of surveying.