Public vs Private Roads & Property

[LazerMan]

I brought that up on goggle earth , the google car did not enter that property, it did enter most all the surrounding area, so my guess is that it is a private road marked or not.

 

[Gjarrette]

I think entry onto land that has no signage is state specific but why wouldn't you put up a sign to give interloper a heads up as a "Courtesy" so a "situation" never arises. Why would you wait back in the weeds to jump out and have a confrontation. In Arizona I do believe that you must have a sign if you intend to go to court to protest someone entering onto your property. On Native American land there is plenty of signage believe me as I have traversed it many times. Whenever you enter Native American Land the whole thing is protected and any person entering onto it is under the jurisdiction of the Native American Tribe and its laws so yes there is not need for you to put up a sign because the huge ones on the interstates saying "You are now entering Navajo Nation etc. ad infinitum is there for all to see. If I follow your logic why do the erect huge sighs when entering reservation land? That would be like non native people erecting signs telling Native Americans when leaving the "Reservation" that you must be careful which parcel you wonder onto. Most people that travel know that you had better tow the mark on Native American land because the US Constitution does not apply there. Something that I could never understand is how one can have a sovereign nation in the middle of another one. The whole concept is perplexing. I do not want to get into a on your Native Lands argument but you decided to personalize this and bring politics into it not me.

By the way I do live on private land with a private road not maintained by the county or state or for that matter the federal government. I get people dumping garbage and dirt and furniture on my land all the time. I once had a known felon casing out my property from the rear of my house. I called the police. The patrolman asked "if I had signs" and I said no. He then informed that he could not arrest the person for trespass if there was no signs warn the interloper where my property started.

If someone wants to be kind, respectful, and courtesy wouldn't it be a great gesture letting a person know what is private and where your property started and your desire to have them keep off?

My neighbor once told me "good fences make good neighbors". It is just a way of letting others know how to behave without guessing. If you do not put up a sign then it means by default you do not have a problem with others stepping onto that piece of land temporally or to take a photo. Plain and simple instead of setting a trap to catch someone that is innocently doing something that is perfectly legal why do you insist on making a situation which inites doubt and ambiguity. I see a sigh that says private I keep off. It requires not research just common sense.

As far as rent a cops goes they have no legal authority and if they lay their hands on you it is they that will be in trouble as they are not sworn officers who have any legal authority not given to them by state or local governments.

 

[Mavic Mac]

I think entry onto land that has no signage is state specific but why wouldn't you put up a sign to give interloper a heads up as a "Courtesy" so a "situation" never arises. Why would you wait back in the weeds to jump out and have a confrontation. In Arizona I do believe that you must have a sign if you intend to go to court to protest someone entering onto your property.

First, I edited the above post to save space and repetition.
I missed it where the OP stated somebody jumped out of the weeds to have a confrontation. Would you please show me in the post where it was stated.

Florida Trespass Law
TRESPASS ON PROPERTY OTHER THAN A STRUCTURE OR CONVEYANCE
Trespass on Property other than a Structure or Conveyance occurs where a person who, without being authorized, licensed, or invited, willfully enters upon or remains in any property other than a building or vehicle. Ordinarily, the offense concerns land.

To prove the crime at trial, the State must establish the following elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. The defendant willfully entered upon or remained in the property alleged;
2. The property was owned by or in the lawful possession of the person/entity claiming the trespass;
3. Notice not to enter upon or remain in that property had been given by either actual communication or by posting, cultivation, or fencing on the property, and
4. The defendant’s entering upon or remaining in the property was without the permission, express or implied, of the person or entity claiming the trespass or any other person authorized to give that permission. See Section 810.09, Florida Statutes.

• Fla. Std. Jury Instr. (Crim) 13.4

From the OP it appears that the two persons in the truck complied with FL law by advising him of the situation.

 

[Goin Up]

It appears you were on CSX property. I had a (unmarked) right-of-way dispute w/them a few years back, and I can tell you from my experience, CSX is pit-bulls when it comes to what they consider to be their "domain(s)". You handled it well, but I wouldn't go back there.

 

[Citizen Flier]

I wanted to get aerials of a cruise ship in San Francisco -long before CoronaVirus. Ship was at dock -and there were "no drone zone" signs posted. I believe there may be some homeland security type rules in force. The legality of these could be in question depending on property/jurisdiction etc.

I checked your location on AirMap -and it is NOT indicated as NFZ. OK to fly.

I was photographing an office building (from the ground) years ago. A security guard told be it was not permitted. As I was on a public street, I politely questioned his authority. He sated he was just doing his job & walked away. I recently read that is is possible some structures may be able to legally restrict photography. Not sure if that's only for commercial use or not, and what rules might apply to cruise ships. And of course private property is a separate issue.

 

[desertvet38]

I saw all of your posts, and I thank you for taking the time to share your opinions and experiences with me. I have a good friend of mine that goes to my church, who is a Hillsborough County Sheriff's Deputy... I'll see what he has to say. I just felt as though had I been entering private property, there would have been something...some kind of way to let people know that beyond this point is private property.

 

[desertvet38]

It appears you were on CSX property. I had a (unmarked) right-of-way dispute w/them a few years back, and I can tell you from my experience, CSX is pit-bulls when it comes to what they consider to be their "domain(s)". You handled it well, but I wouldn't go back there.

Noted...thank you. ?

 

[sar104]

Looking at the land ownership database, the road and shoulder is CSX Transportation property - not public.

 

[azmikew]

Your county assessor's website usually has a GIS section where you can see all of the land parcels and determine ownership. Here in Maricopa County (Phoenix) it's a very easy site to navigate and similar to the screenshot posted by sar104 in post #48

 

[desertvet38]

Looking at the land ownership database, the road and shoulder is CSX Transportation property - not public.

View attachment 99399

Wow...I wish I knew where to find that myself before I went out there! Can you please tell me what you did to get that info? Much appreciated!

 

[desertvet38]

Your county assessor's website usually has a GIS section where you can see all of the land parcels and determine ownership. Here in Maricopa County (Phoenix) it's a very easy site to navigate and similar to the screenshot posted by sar104 in post #48

Thank you very much! I will check it out for my county! Safe flying!

 

[sar104]

Wow...I wish I knew where to find that myself before I went out there! Can you please tell me what you did to get that info? Much appreciated!

That's a screen shot from GaiaGPS - the premium subscription, which is only $40/year if I recall correctly, includes access to overlays showing public and private land ownership.

 

[FlyingB]

Yes, always be polite & courteous to people - why wouldn’t anyone want to be? But the root of this question is really a matter of perspective.

I’m going to assume the responses given thus far come from people who do NOT own private roads, rural lands, or tracts of private property. As someone who does - and as a country boy who was raised to respect private land ownership - I see this matter differently.

It is not required by me to post “private road” signs on any of the roads I own to maintain the road’s privacy status. It is not required by me to post “no trespassing” signs along the perimeter of the 50 private, wooded acres where I built my home to keep trespassers off of my land. It is not required of me to erect eyesore signs stating, “Private Beach” on my beaches, or doing anything to denote what is mine. At least not to ADULTS. Children...well, children are different. They NEED to be taught to respect what belongs to another. Adults are supposed to have already learned that lesson.

“Adults” have the responsibility to KNOW where they are, where they belong, and where they don’t belong. “Adults” are supposed to know if land is not owned by the State, is not owned by the Government, and is not owned by themselves, then it MUST be privately owned land. “Who” that private land owner happens to be is not a question - or even the business - for any trespasser to pose or even require proof of to understand they are trespassing.

This is basic stuff. This is not rocket science. And unless you truly would have NO problem with some stranger parking his car in your driveway, or a stranger going onto your yard to fly his drone from your land without your permission, doing anything else a stranger chooses to do on your property, or if you think you would actually enjoy having to PROVE you own your land, then this matter is not even up for debate.

I say this as a private landowner as well as a Native American, who cherishes his land ownership and who protects it. I’ve told more than one trespasser upon my lands, “Just because my yard is a lot bigger than yours does not mean my rights to privacy are smaller. The days of “discovering” and “exploring” other people’s land ended hundreds of years ago.”

I agree for the most part. However, as a landowner, myself, I always identify myself. A good reason to ask who the person is or who they are representing, is some people falsely claim to be the owners. I have had people try to run me off my 192 acre farm while hunting. I keep asking questions and let them dig a deep hole. I say it wouldn't hurt to ask after you have answered their question.

 

[Dbez1]

If it’s a County or State road going through someone’s property, isn’t there so many feet right-of-way on each side that the property owner has no control over? It doesn’t look like that is the situation here, but I’m just curious. I do think you did the right thing by de escalating the situation. As a long time ATV rider, I know that the RR’s take a dim view of trespassing, probably for insurance reasons. ?

 

[dirkclod]

Dont know about there but here it’s 30’ from center line
on both sides of road.

 

[BerndM]

To me, based on your map, you had to drive along the train tracks on railroad Right of Way property. I don't know about Florida, but here in beautiful Kalifornika, ALL railroad Right of Ways are definitely the private property of the railroad and will subject you to possible fines for trespassing.

 

[Chip]

I really enjoy these technical air and land sleuthing threads! Very well done and informative everybody. Good luck desert vet, if this spot is not right for you then hopefully there is an even better one waiting to be discovered just around the corner!

 

[dougiefresh27]

If the area was not marked with signs you should be safe in assuming it is ok to go there.
And as long as no geofences were in place, they do not own or control the airspace above them.
But before I go on a flight, I try and research the area thoroughly to hopefully avoid all interactions.
I'm not good under pressure, don't like conflict and don't want to bother anyone.
But I know the rules and laws to dispute others and their claim to "you caaaaan't fly that thang here"

 

[GK-Mavic2P_Pilot]

Did you ever officially answer the question by asking LE?

 

[sar104]

Did you ever officially answer the question by asking LE?

The answer is in the land ownership map. It was private property.