R.I.D. Spoofing and is it legal?

[brett8883]

Just to be clear and for others who may be reading this, you only register the drone and you cannot register the module, correct? Meaning if you only owned one module and you didn't own any drones, you cannot make any entries into the database AND there are no entries ultimately in the database that don't have a drone (UAS model) filled in, right? Finally, if you have two drones and one module, you only have 2 entries: you have to enter the first drone plus the module (because the module is required) and then deactivate it (since you cannot have the same remote id serial number against different aircraft serial number) then enter your second valid pairing, correct? I guess I'm asking if this is allowed or not, please correct me. When you want to fly and switch up in the field, technically you have to go into the database?

This only makes sense that you cannot register neither a standard RID serial number nor a broadcast module serial number; these can only be assigned to a valid aircraft serial number. Or does it let you enter the same RID serial number against all of your drones that need a module as long as you are on the same account?

Sorry I have not tinkered with this because I have a lot to enter and I haven't done it yet.

On closer inspection it seems they want you to add all drones and broadcast modules to the inventory list. Even if the drone doesn’t have built in RID it still looks like they want the serial number of the drone. The only exception to this is home built models that don’t have serial numbers.

All of your broadcast modules also need to be added to the inventory list with their serial numbers listed. They’re no adding and deleting things. What you got enter them in

 

[mavic3usa]

@Chip I’m really anxious to get your thoughts on

On closer inspection it seems they want you to add all drones and broadcast modules to the inventory list. Even if the drone doesn’t have built in RID it still looks like they want the serial number of the drone. The only exception to this is home built models that don’t have serial numbers.

All of your broadcast modules also need to be added to the inventory list with their serial numbers listed. They’re no adding and deleting things. What you got enter them in

Ok thanks. Maybe it's better to enter everything while the database is still wide open and will accept pretty much anything with no control or no checking; if that's the case. Ultimately the database is going to be yet another FAA disaster. Imagine if someone can provide one external module RID on social media that everybody else can add the same number to thousands of drones. FAA will end up with a bunch of drones with no RID number and if you cannot refresh your account without them, the registration eventually expires.....yuk!

 

[msinger]

So I guess as long you assume people are registering and renewing their registrations every two years like they are suppose to, it won’t be long that you will be able to claim ignorance

People are renewing every two years or when the FAA says their registration expires? I don't think it's as cut and dry as you make it seem. For example, my registration doesn't need renewed until 12/12/2023 (per the FAA) and RID kicks in before then.

At some point though, I suppose a time will come when everyone (who knows they need to register) will register/renew after RID is implemented and will have no choice but to enter at least one aircraft serial number. And then you'll have scenarios where people won't enter the correct serial number (since there are several) or accidentally enter it with typos.

 

[msinger]

Imagine if someone can provide one external module RID on social media that everybody else can add the same number to thousands of drones

But, it would be pretty easy for the FAA to only allow a serial number to be entered once. And maybe they are already doing that now.

 

[brett8883]

It won't be long before law enforcement has an FAA virtual terminal located in the department complete with remote ID details available at your fingertips once you get past the official sign-in (dept credentials) and the court order affidavit screen (which will only take a few minutes to get a "warrant" or simply click on the "exigent circumstances" checkbox and presto!).

Mobile phones details used to be complicated; not anymore.

Thank you, Mr. Patriot Act.

All I want personally is for there to be accountability in regards to LE and RID. Acknowledgement that the 4th amendment exists and checks on power. It may end up being that easy but if you look at RDQ v FAA the court says

“A Remote ID message may only be matched to that nonpublic information and used by the FAA or disclosed to law enforcement outside of the FAA “when necessary and relevant to a[n] FAA enforcement activity”

I have a hunch that local LE aren’t going to be too wild about using resources to do the FAAs job for them. It would take an incredible amount of time and money to train officers on the nuances of FAA regulations. Also, I think probable cause will be exceptionally hard to establish. There are exceptions and waivers to every rule.

 

[mavic3usa]

All I want personally is for there to be accountability in regards to LE and RID. Acknowledgement that the 4th amendment exists and checks on power. It may end up being that easy but if you look at RDQ v FAA the court says

“A Remote ID message may only be matched to that nonpublic information and used by the FAA or disclosed to law enforcement outside of the FAA “when necessary and relevant to a[n] FAA enforcement activity”

I have a hunch that local LE aren’t going to be too wild about using resources to do the FAAs job for them. It would take an incredible amount of time and money to train officers on the nuances of FAA regulations. Also, I think probable cause will be exceptionally hard to establish. There are exceptions and waivers to every rule.

I agree, I believe local law enforcement will have very little to do with FAA rules and regulation upon first contact. All enforcement action will come against various state and local laws (that we have opened ourselves up to) and from there, they can reach out to FAA when the time comes. Our community is good about giving consent and waiving our fourth amendment protections so there's that. How else with law enforcement validate or verify your registration? Is that a relevant FAA enforcement activity?

Plus I mentioned exigent circumstances so when it comes to a drone, everything is an emergency.

 

[brett8883]

People are renewing every two years or when the FAA says their registration expires? I don't think it's as cut and dry as you make it seem. For example, my registration doesn't need renewed until 12/12/2023 (per the FAA) and RID kicks in before then.

It might be 3 years now that I think about it not sure. Are you saying it’s not cut and dry to assume people are following the rules? If they don’t follow the rules to register and renew on time what makes you think they care about knowing the RID registration rule?

Remember this is the same FAA that woke up one morning a few years ago and said, despite it being perfectly the day before, registration numbers could no longer be in the battery compartment and had to be on the outside of the drone and clearly visible, effective immediately. We’ve known about RID for years now.

Having said that I’m not 100% certain there’s anything that says you have to enter in your serial number before your registration is due for renewal.

At some point though, I suppose a time will come when everyone (who knows they need to register) will register/renew after RID is implemented and will have no choice but to enter at least one aircraft serial number. And then you'll have scenarios where people won't enter the correct serial number (since there are several) or accidentally enter it with typos.

There should be a check sum on the RID serial number so that doesn’t happen like there is with credit card numbers and UPC numbers. At least if they were smart that’s what they’d do.

 

[mavic3usa]

^I was able to renew my registration today which expires in Dec '23 for another 3 years so now it expires in Dec '26. I only have one aircraft on my recreational account and it's a Mini 2 with S/N listed and no RID (the system will allow you to add an aircraft even if RID is technically not required). I added it today since I had zero aircraft and it wouldn't let me renew unless I added at least one.

 

[brett8883]

^I was able to renew my registration today which expires in Dec '23 for another 3 years so now it expires in Dec '26. I only have one aircraft on my recreational account and it's a Mini 2 with S/N listed and no RID (the system will allow you to add an aircraft even if RID is technically not required). I added it today since I had zero aircraft and it wouldn't let me renew unless I added at least one.

There’s a check box for if your aircraft broadcasts RID or not. If you select no then it probably doesn’t look for the checksum for RID serial numbers. It probably only does that if you select that it does broadcast RID. Again, if they were smart but I assume that’s the case because you have to check one of those boxes before it will let you out in other information.

You didn’t actually need to add your Mini 2 since it’s exempt from RID and registration but I realize I said to add all drones. Maybe it’s just simpler to say to add them all anyway. Can’t hurt to add them.

 

[lookout]

Okay, then XJet makes a valid point, that the FAA may have created a bigger problem than they were trying to solve. This could create panic and chaos at airports,sporting events and elsewhere. Unless the law enforcement or other authorized parties can automatically check FAA drone registration database and screen out fakes. I cannot imagine the public at large being given access to FAA database. Of course, who knows how secure the FAA database is anyway.

The legality of drone spoofing may be more complicated than I thought at first blush if it tricks the general public but not law enforcement or arguably anyone with a legitimate right and need to know real from fake.

Previous documentation has shown, that no, FAA databases weren't that secure and that was on just the dronezone I think it was.

They allowed ADS-B to have private mode for that public access reason. DJI Standard RID is DJI+drone S/N. But an add-on module is just RID module manufacturer + internal S/N. No way to tell what the RID module is flying. Or which drone I put it on today.

 

[lookout]

This takes us right to the question of what is the need for broadcasting signal and location to the general public? My thinking has been because if you publicly broadcast your own location and activity, then you waive any reasonable expectation of privacy which means you can be freely intercepted, monitored and recorded. @brett8883, this stemmed in part from your discovery of that government document questioning whether drone tracking was illegal interception of electronic signal.

It goes back to the unnamed conviction to John Q. Public sentenced of a crime without due process, so his drone needs to be wearing an ankle bracelet. I think this breaks all kinds of conventions what they are doing.

I can just see it now. Operation drone. So we can just sit on our backside and be drive by enforcement.

 

[DAFlys]

Was there a link to the Arduino project for this?

In My FPV Hobby we have come up with a solution for those cell phone drone finder apps. It is simply a board programmed in Arduino to mimic a bunch of drones flying all around you-- so Karen can't see the pilots exact location. NOW I know mimicking some data is illegal but what about RID a lot of us are thinking of making one of these boards.
Keep in mind your rid number is still visible but so are a bunch of others

 

[msinger]

Was there a link to the Arduino project for this?

There are several repos on Github

 

[DAFlys]

There are several repos on Github

Care to share some links?

 

[msinger]

Care to share some links?

Build software better, together

GitHub is where people build software. More than 100 million people use GitHub to discover, fork, and contribute to over 330 million projects.

github.com

 

[BigAl07]

Ok folks... this is the only time I'm going to say this...

• A) quit with the political rants
• B) Be NICE!

Anything less will result in Mod/Admin actions and a locking of the thread. I've deleted a few posts and sent some "notifications" to offenders. Next time the results will be more drastic.

Allen

 

[lookout]

Just how do I get the RID serial number for registration? Plug it in and use dronescanner to figure out what it is? Or does it have a sticker on the unit?

 

[Cafguy]

Just how do I get the RID serial number for registration? Plug it in and use dronescanner to figure out what it is? Or does it have a sticker on the unit?

is it not on the info plate of the unit ?

 

[lookout]

is it not on the info plate of the unit ?

Don't know. Don't have one yet, but I would suspect it does.

 

[lookout]

@Vic Moss

Could you pass this along to your FAA contacts?

Being familiar with some of the concepts of software development, the following needs to happen:

As a result of the network remote ID and its' association with the UTM being dropped some time ago for logistical reasons, and unfeasible at this time, some of the elements of this specification needs to be updated for the broadcast remote ID modules. It does not need to include most of the specification of the network remote ID modules, and thus needs to be dropped from the broadcast remote ID modules. The only thing that needs to be broadcast from the broadcast remote ID modules, is a serial number from the block of serial numbers as it is now, and it is the only thing that needs to be broadcast. Nothing else.

If you expect us to take this for identification only purposes, then it needs to more accurately reflect that purpose. You need to be reasonable and not so sloppy in your processes so that they become something besides what you say it is. We do not need all of the extra payload from the network remote ID modules to be on the broadcast remote ID modules. As it stands right now, there is nothing that distinguishes a network remote ID module from a broadcast remote ID.

On behalf of the drone community, we will not be complying with remote ID as it stands until these corrections are made to your specifications. Fair enough? If you want us to comply with this demand, it needs to be reasonable, which right now, it is not.