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Regional Airport denied request to fly

Seems like there is an awful lot of confusion here about the rules in the US. That's likely because the rules are confusing... :)

If you are a hobbyist:

1. Airspace classifications mean nothing. You can fly anywhere you like as long as you notify the airport AND tower when you are flying within 5 miles.

2. You have no altitude restrictions if you are flying within the AMA's safety guidelines except when you are near an airport.

3. You must NOT interfere with manned aircraft. That includes a lot of common-sense things that aren't explicitly stated. Generally, avoid the immediate airport area and you should be OK 99% of the time.

4. You must fly within visual line of sight. That means you, the operator, must be able to visually see the aircraft at all times. This means no long distance flights and no goggles.

5. You must follow a safety code promulgated by a nationwide community-oriented group, which at this time basically means the AMA - of which you need not be a member.



If you are flying as a non-hobbyist (commercial or other non-recreational flight under Part 107):

1. You don't need to notify an airport or tower when flying within 5 miles, but you cannot fly in controlled airspace without authorization, which you must obtain from the FAA's portal. ATC at the tower has been directed to NOT grant such permission.

2. ...All the other Part 107 rules. Too numerous to list.



Now, to the other sticky widget:

1. You cannot, as a UAS pilot, transmit on a VHF radio. There is no category of FCC station license that permits it.

Your RROP covers you as an operator, but the STATION must be licensed as well. For a station ABOARD an aircraft, it's covered by rule. Ground stations require their own station license, and there is currently no category of license that would cover a UAS pilot. The FCC hasn't gotten there yet. You can listen all you like - and this isn't a bad idea - but you cannot legally transmit.
Can you provide a citation or point to guidance that says "Airspace classification mean nothing"? I have not seen this before and am skeptical that hobbyists can fly in controlled airspace without ATC authorization.
 
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Can you provide a citation or point to guidance that says "Airspace classification mean nothing"? I have not seen this before and am skeptical that hobbyists can fly in controlled airspace without ATC authorization.

Kinda hard to prove a negative. Put another way: prove to me that I can drive on any street and am not limited to back roads as opposed to expressways. You can't because there's really nothing that says what class of road you can drive on - you are assumed to be permitted to drive anywhere unless otherwise prohibited.

UAS pilots flying under Part 101 and Part 107 are authorized to fly in the NAS subject to the restrictions in those Parts.

107 pilots have rules prohibiting flight in controlled airspace:

§107.41 Operation in certain airspace.
No person may operate a small unmanned aircraft in Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from Air Traffic Control (ATC).

No such restriction exists in Part 101. There are only a few restrictions (line of sight and the requirement to follow a CBO safety code, for example). Nothing about airspace except the requirement to notify the airport and tower when you intend to fly within 5 miles. AMA's safety code has altitude limits near airports, but nothing concerning the class of airspace.
 
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Kinda hard to prove a negative. Put another way: prove to me that I can drive on any street and am not limited to back roads as opposed to expressways. You can't because there's really nothing that says what class of road you can drive on - you are assumed to be permitted to drive anywhere unless otherwise prohibited.

UAS pilots flying under Part 101 and Part 107 are authorized to fly in the NAS subject to the restrictions in those Parts.

107 pilots have rules prohibiting flight in controlled airspace:

§107.41 Operation in certain airspace.
No person may operate a small unmanned aircraft in Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from Air Traffic Control (ATC).

No such restriction exists in Part 101. There are only a few restrictions (line of sight and the requirement to follow a CBO safety code, for example). Nothing about airspace except the requirement to notify the airport and tower when you intend to fly within 5 miles. AMA's safety code has altitude limits near airports, but nothing concerning the class of airspace.
I have to challenge this one. 14CFR Part 91 sets rules out for all aircraft (which even model airplanes or drones are considered). Part 91 prohibits entry into restricted airspace without approval from ATC. Part 91 does exclude certain aircraft that are listed in Part 101 but only moored balloons and kites, amateur rockets and free unmanned balloons. Model aircraft (Part 101 paragraph E) are NOT excluded from the airspace rules. So even hobbyists have to comply with airspace restrictions.
 
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I have to challenge this one. 14CFR Part 91 sets rules out for all aircraft (which even model airplanes or drones are considered). Part 91 prohibits entry into restricted airspace without approval from ATC. Part 91 does exclude certain aircraft that are listed in Part 101 but only moored balloons and kites, amateur rockets and free unmanned balloons. Model aircraft (Part 101 paragraph E) are NOT excluded from the airspace rules. So even hobbyists have to comply with airspace restrictions.


Model aircraft are not aircraft for purposes of Part 91. If they were:

1. It would have to have nationality and registration marks, to include an "N" number. (§91.9(c), §45.23)
2. Have to keep your seat belt fastened during takeoff, landing, and while enroute. (§91.105(a))
3. Your MINIMUM altitude over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons would be 1000' above the highest obstacle (§91.119(b))
4. Over uncongested areas, your minimum altitude would be 500'. (§91.119(c)).
5. You would be required to maintain altitude by reference to an altimeter (§91.121)
6. You would require an airworthiness certificate (§91.203)
6(a): A whole host of other equipment (§91.205)
7. You'd also need an ELT (§91.207)
8. You've gotta have a transponder too. (§91.215)
9. Inspections are required. (§91.405)
9(a): Annually. (§91.409)
10. You'd need to maintain maintenance records (§91.417)

I could go on, but I think the point is made.


Now, let's get back to reality: Drones are model aircraft.


14 CFR 1.1:

Model aircraft means an unmanned aircraft that is:
(1) Capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere;
(2) Flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft; and
(3) Flown for hobby or recreational purposes.


14 CFR 101:

§ 101.1 Applicability.
(a) This part prescribes rules governing the operation in the United States, of the following:
(5) Any model aircraft that meets the conditions specified in § 101.41. For purposes of this part, a model aircraft is an unmanned aircraft that is:
(i) Capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere;
(ii) Flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft; and
(iii) Flown for hobby or recreational purposes.


§ 101.41 Applicability.
This subpart prescribes rules governing the operation of a model aircraft (or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft) that meets all of the following conditions as set forth in section 336 of Public Law 112-95:

(a) The aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use;
(b) The aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;
(c) The aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization;
(d) The aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft; and
(e) When flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation.



For kicks, let's look at Part 107:

§107.1 Applicability.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, this part applies to the registration, airman certification, and operation of civil small unmanned aircraft systems within the United States.
(b) This part does not apply to the following:
(1) Air carrier operations;
(2) Any aircraft subject to the provisions of part 101 of this chapter; or
(3) Any operation that a remote pilot in command elects to conduct pursuant to an exemption issued under section 333 of Public Law 112-95, unless otherwise specified in the exemption.

Back to Top

§107.3 Definitions.
The following definitions apply to this part. If there is a conflict between the definitions of this part and definitions specified in §1.1 of this chapter, the definitions in this part control for purposes of this part:

Small unmanned aircraft means an unmanned aircraft weighing less than 55 pounds on takeoff, including everything that is on board or otherwise attached to the aircraft.

Small unmanned aircraft system (small UAS) means a small unmanned aircraft and its associated elements (including communication links and the components that control the small unmanned aircraft) that are required for the safe and efficient operation of the small unmanned aircraft in the national airspace system.

Unmanned aircraft means an aircraft operated without the possibility of direct human intervention from within or on the aircraft.

 
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They sure make it awfully confusing for a hobbyist living 6.5 miles from a large airport, in Class B Airspace to know where the heck I can fly and where I can't! Why not just come out with a map telling me when I cannot fly? Period. Airspace restrictions, yes or no? Who knows? Not me...

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I wish we could get this sorted out, but a start would be getting the terminology correct.
Controlled airspace is not "restricted airspace."

Restricted airspace is one of the categories under Special Use Airspace, and includes Restricted/Prohibited/MOA's/Alert Areas/TFR's/Warning Areas and controlled firing areas.

Controlled Airspace is really what the issue is about. I think most 107 operators know what they need to do. I do.
But for hobbyists, I think this is what I would base my decision on, from the FAA:

"Recreational operators are required to give notice for flights within five miles of an airport to BOTH the airport operator and air traffic control tower, if the airport has a tower.
However, recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination."

Link.......Airspace Restrictions







 
I suggest that everyone read the FAA Federal Register posting titled "Interpretation of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft" found here:


https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/model_aircraft_spec_rule.pdf


Make up your own mind.

This interpretation was published as a request for comments. According to the Part 107 rulemaking, the FAA has received over 33,000 comments on this interpretation and intends to publish a final interpretation that may change in response to the comments. However, I do not believe they have issued a final interpretation yet and so, in my mind, this represents the best insight we have into FAA's view of these rules.

I will point out that I am not an attorney, but in my job I spend a lot of time dealing with compliance with federal rules and have been doing so for 30 years. Courts have a long history of giving deference to agency interpretations of their own rules. This document lays out clearly the FAA's interpretation of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft. Please read the whole thing, but here are a couple of sections out of the document (with emphasis added by me in red).


Historically, the FAA has considered model aircraft to be aircraft that fall within the statutory and regulatory definitions of an aircraft, as they are contrivances or devices that are “invented, used, or designed to navigate, or fly in, the air.” See 49 USC 40102 and 14 CFR 1.1. As aircraft, these devices generally are subject to FAA oversight and enforcement. However, consistent with FAA’s enforcement philosophy, FAA’s oversight of model aircraft has been guided by the risk that these operations present. The FAA first recognized in 1981 that “model aircraft can at times pose a hazard to full-scale aircraft in flight and to persons and property on the surface,” and recommended a set of voluntary operating standards for model aircraft operators to follow to mitigate these safety risks. See Advisory Circular 91-57, Model Aircraft Operating Standards (June 9, 1981). These operating standards included restricting operations over populated areas, limiting use of the devices around spectators until after the devices had been flight tested and proven airworthy; restricting operations to 400 feet above the surface; requiring that the devices give right of way to, and avoid flying near manned aircraft, and using observers to assist in operations.


Congress directed that the FAA may not “promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model aircraft, or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft” if the aircraft is being operated, or being developed to be operated, pursuant to the five criteria enumerated in the statute as described above. P.L. 112-95, section 336(a). In other words, Congress has restricted the FAA from promulgating regulations, from the date when the statute was enacted, specifically regarding model aircraft that meet the terms of the statute. However, the prohibition against future rulemaking is not a complete bar on rulemaking that may have an effect on model aircraft. As noted above, the rulemaking limitation applies only to rulemaking actions specifically “regarding a model aircraft or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft.” P.L. 112-95, section 336(a). Thus, the rulemaking prohibition would not apply in the case of general rules that the FAA may issue or modify that apply to all aircraft, such as rules addressing the use of airspace (e.g., the 2008 rule governing VFR operations in the Washington, DC area) for safety or security reasons. See 73 FR 46803. The statute does not require FAA to exempt model aircraft from those rules because those rules are not specifically regarding model aircraft.


Finally, the statute sets a requirement for model aircraft operating within 5 miles of an airport to notify the airport operator and control tower, where applicable, prior to operating.10,11 If the model aircraft operator provides notice of forthcoming operations which are then not authorized by air traffic or objected to by the airport operator, the FAA expects the model aircraft operator will not conduct the proposed flights. The FAA would consider flying model aircraft over the objections of FAA air traffic or airport operators to be endangering the safety of the NAS.


Reading the broad reference to the NAS, along with Congress’ clear interest in ensuring that model aircraft are safely operated, we conclude that Congress intended for the FAA to be able to rely on a range of our existing regulations to protect users of the airspace and people and property on the ground. Therefore, regardless of whether a model aircraft satisfies the statutory definition and operational requirements described above, if the model aircraft is operated in such a manner that endangers the safety of the NAS, the FAA may take enforcement action consistent with Congress’ mandate.

 
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"Recreational operators are required to give notice for flights within five miles of an airport to BOTH the airport operator and air traffic control tower, if the airport has a tower.
However, recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination."

Link.......Airspace Restrictions







That is very interesting considering it has no basis in codified law. My guess is that it was put there in error.
 
Can you provide a citation or point to guidance that says "Airspace classification mean nothing"? I have not seen this before and am skeptical that hobbyists can fly in controlled airspace without ATC authorization.

Nowhere in the rules for hobby flying will you see any mention of airspace. They speak of airports period. Airspace, as applied to sUAS flights in the US, is applied to professional flights/ part107 certified pilots. So he is absolutely accurate. Need a link go to the FAA website


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Nowhere in the rules for hobby flying will you see any mention of airspace. They speak of airports period. Airspace, as applied to sUAS flights in the US, is applied to professional flights/ part107 certified pilots. So he is absolutely accurate. Need a link go to the FAA website


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Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Frequently Asked Questions
Flying for Fun (recreational or hobby)

Item 7. Last sentence.

"Additionally, the UAS operator must comply with any applicable airspace requirements."

Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Frequently Asked Questions

And again:
"However, recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination."

Airspace Restrictions

As a recreational/hobbyist operator. fly in a prohibited area, an area that has a TFR, or class B airspace, and if the FAA goes after you, tell them these airspace rules don't apply to you.
Good luck.
 
As a recreational/hobbyist operator. fly in a prohibited area, an area that has a TFR, or class B airspace, and if the FAA goes after you, tell them these airspace rules don't apply to you.
Good luck.

A FAQ page is not legally binding. There is NO basis in law to prohibit any operation by a Part 101 operator in Class B airspace absent a danger to the safety of the National Airspace System.

TFRs apply to ALL aircraft, not just model aircraft, so those are legally required to be obeyed.
 
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I know this is a dead horse but I didn't get the opportunity to beat it at least once so please don't holler at me to much I did read the entire thread along with every other I could find.

Is there someone out there that could look at my location and verify what I believe I already know?

I live in Cape Coral Florida. Attached (if I figure out the attachment process) is my location on the map.

I'm under the impression that page field is the only real airport I'd need to notify in my area even though it only has like 5 planes a day on a busy day and no tower to my knowledge.

I'm right on the edge of it like 4.8 miles out.

The rest of everything around me are either a couple hospital helipads and the rest are just empty fields that helicopters can land at if someone's hurt in the area.

I would think that just some common sense would be ok but apparently that's a foreign term these days.

Most of what I want to do I think right now is flying around while out boating filming wildlife and such..

If someone smarter then myself could verify what I think I know it would be appreciated won't hold anyone to what they say just lookin for friendly reassurances.

By the way looking at the map I find it absolutely amazing that the entire Everglades is off limits.....just amazing I can fly threw with my airboat but a drone is somehow going to disturb nature hehe the world is upside down and running sideways or I'm just to old I dunno.

Thanks ahead of time.
df0616b8d7374aeafd38399a1e57f0a8.jpg



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The Everglades is a national park.
Drones are prohibited in national parks in the US.
 
The answer depends upon exactly where you will be flying. If you go to Skyvector.com you can see the FAA sectional chart for your area. The Southwest Florida International airport is Class C controlled airspace. It has an inner cylinder of controlled airspace that goes from the surface to 4000' then there is a shelf farther out that goes from 1200 to 4000 feet. It looks like most of Cape Coral is either under that shelf or outside the class C airspace. Almost all of Cape Coral has Class E airspace starting at 1200 feet above it. So, if you are flying within guidelines and staying at 400' AGL or below, you should not be in controlled airspace unless you are in that inner cylinder discussed above. Other than that, the rules require you to try and notify those smaller airports and heliports.
 
Thanks for the reply. I guess in the end I'll just do the best I can do use some common sense and just not worry about it after that.


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RMB, sort of. Depending where he is located, the class C airspace starts at 1400, 3600, 4000, or 5000 feet AGL. So as long as he's at or below the FAA-legal 400 feet, he should be fine. If he's 2 miles from KAKH, he's more than 5 miles from KCLT and does not need to notify them as long as he's below the floor of the class C. I do not think having an FAA license matters (yet).

You can't fly higher than 400 feet agl if you are a hobby flier. So class airspace doesn't apply.

If you have a 107 there are two exceptions that I know of...

you can if you are within 400 feet of a structure.
you can with a waiver.


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Airspace technically applies. Stay out of class B airspace. Not 100% sure but stay out of class C as well. You are alright if you are within their rings but underneath them. At that point you should fall in class G airspace well under the 1,200 foot mark not breaking 400 feet.
 
My best answer to this is look up sectional charts and it will show you where the rings are for the airports closest to you.
 
5 miles from the airport is going to usually be just fine unless you are flying next to DFW or other really large airports. Check the sectional or air map
 
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